Prodigy, product of propaganda, or....? 10 yr old refuses to say Pledge of Allegiance

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by tld221

This is around the age where children start to question everything theyre told as fact. Discovering that Santa and the tooth fairy aren't real turns into thinking "omg my parents lies to me, what else have they lied about?"

then it turns into "this history book lies! this teacher lies! everyone is lying, why should i believe this?"

Maybe. But as I've said, in my experience, 10-year-olds who take it this far are very much the exception, not the rule.

And what do you mean about Santa and the tooth fairy?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

And what do you mean about Santa and the tooth fairy?

Have a seat, MysticCat. This may hurt, but I'm only telling you this because I love you. When you saw us taking presents out the closet that Eve, we told you Santa hid them there. But......

[ThetaPrincess24]

If this kid or any other doesnt want to say the pledge, then I think that is their right to not do so. I do agree with others that by choosing not to for whatever reason they wish, doesnt give a student the right to be disrespectful to the teacher or disruptive to the class. I too agree this shananigan shouldnt have gone on for four days nor do I think it really newsworthy to the national media.

I myself for whatever reason I cant remember, stopped saying the pledge in school about the 10th grade. I stood, but said nothing and really didnt think too much of it either until 9/11. This incident made me rethink quite a few things. I now proudly say the Pledge of Allegiance and sing the national anthem with pride.

[SWTXBelle]

When I taught in a public school, all students stood as a matter of respect, but no one HAD to say the pledge. I myself don't say ALL the pledge -

When I taught at a private Christian high school, students had to attend chapel every day. I didn't require any students to actively participate - only to follow the service in their hymnals and prayer books. I would do the same were I to attend a religious service of a faith not my own.

You can respect the dignity of those around you by silently standing without compromising your beliefs. For example, I stand when the Canadian national anthem is played.

Forcing someone to say the pledge strikes me as counter to what I hope we cherish as American ideals.

[tld221]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Have a seat, MysticCat. This may hurt, but I'm only telling you this because I love you. When you saw us taking presents out the closet that Eve, we told you Santa hid them there. But......

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by thetygerlily

Agreed. I've never been a fan of the "under god" part, but I always stood out of respect for the pledge and the others in the room.

Originally Posted by epchick

I'm a sub, and I don't mind if the kids don't say the Pledge or sing the National Anthem. But they will stand, and they will NOT be disruptive to the students, because that is just a lack of respect.

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

When I taught in a public school, all students stood as a matter of respect, but no one HAD to say the pledge.

I participate in the pledge, and unless the national anthem is being performed in a way that discourages others from singing, I sing along. It's important to me, so I do it.

Having said that, I don't agree with making students stand for the pledge. While some people view standing as a sign of respect, others see it as something more. Plus, I figure requiring people to stand and/or pledge is completely contrary to the sentiment. Kinda like having to tell someone you want them to hug you.

If you want to stand and pledge, fine. If you want to stand only, fine. If you don't want to stand or pledge, fine.

[RU OX Alum]

Would the kid in the wheelchair be punished for not standing?

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

Would the kid in the wheelchair be punished for not standing?

He/she would just need to sit up straight. Or hope that the patriotic fervor of the reciting of the pledge would be such that he/she would be HEALED! HEALED by the power of the pledge!

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

I participate in the pledge, and unless the national anthem is being performed in a way that discourages others from singing, I sing along. It's important to me, so I do it.

Having said that, I don't agree with making students stand for the pledge. While some people view standing as a sign of respect, others see it as something more. Plus, I figure requiring people to stand and/or pledge is completely contrary to the sentiment. Kinda like having to tell someone you want them to hug you.

If you want to stand and pledge, fine. If you want to stand only, fine. If you don't want to stand or pledge, fine.

What "something more"? There's a big difference between requiring someone to say words they don't believe, and asking them to show respect to those who do wish to pledge. Standing doesn't say anything other than you are acknowledging the importance of the pledge to others - to sit is an act of disrespect.

[pshsx1]

Originally Posted by epchick

The kid should be punished for telling the teacher to "jump off a bridge." Sorry Dad, we won't even go into students rights, but in the non-school world, I don't think the first amendment would cover that.

Now whether the kid should say the Pledge? Ehhh, that's kinda iffy. I've known people who disagreed with the "under God" part, so they would leave that out. I don't think its THAT big a deal (but then again, i'm the one who won't say the Texas pledge lol)

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

What "something more"? There's a big difference between requiring someone to say words they don't believe, and asking them to show respect to those who do wish to pledge. Standing doesn't say anything other than you are acknowledging the importance of the pledge to others - to sit is an act of disrespect.

So, people stand out of respect to other people and not out of any kind of response to the flag (or pledge)? I don't buy it. People stand out of respect to the flag. And to require someone to stand who isn't required to pledge is inconsistent.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

So, people stand out of respect to other people and not out of any kind of response to the flag (or pledge)? I don't buy it. People stand out of respect to the flag.

Not necessarily. This is perhaps not the most common example, but when my son was in Cub Scouts, meetings always began with the Pledge. Son's den leader (except for the few years I was den leader) was English. At the beginning of the the first meeting, he explained that he is still a British subject. So, he told them, he doesn't say the Pledge of Allegiance and would always be asking one of them to lead it. But, he added, he would always stand at attention (without a Scout salute or putting his hand over his heart, which would have been a gesture specifically honoring the flag itself) when the Pledge was being said to show respect for them and for what the pledge means to others. The Canadian mom of one of the Scouts would do the same.

I'm with SWTXBelle -- simply standing, without hand over heart, doesn't seem any different to me than standing respectfully when the national anthem of another country is played (like "O Canada" at hockey games) or when the congregation stands in a religious service of a faith not my own. It's just seems like good manners.

Oh, and Dr. Phil . . .

[epchick]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

So, people stand out of respect to other people and not out of any kind of response to the flag (or pledge)? I don't buy it. People stand out of respect to the flag.

This is the way that I've told the students...there are people fighting on the other side of the world for our country, for our freedom. You don't have to agree with everything our government does, but out of respect for our soldiers fighting for us, you will stand.

When I stood up to say the pledge and the national anthem, it was NEVER out of respect for the flag. It was always because the men/women fought for all the rights and freedoms we have. Maybe its because I grew up in a military family and that is why I think that way, but I've heard many teachers tell their students that as well.


In contrast, we have a lot of kids from Mexico. Over there they have NO options, they must say sing their anthem, have their hands over their heart (they don't do it like we do, they do the hand salute, but have it over where their heart is), and say whatever pledge or whatever they have. But once they get over here, they decide they wanna goof off.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by epchick

When I stood up to say the pledge and the national anthem, it was NEVER out of respect for the flag. It was always because the men/women fought for all the rights and freedoms we have.

And this would be one of those "something more" kind of instances. To me, this doesn't sound like you think people should stand out of respect to the others around them who are standing, it sounds like people should stand out of respect for soldiers.

I also agree with MysticCat (and, from what's implied, SWTXBelle) that standing is good manners. I think that's absolutely correct. And that's another reason why I think making people stand is contrary to the intent. If they had good manners and chose not to stand, perhaps simply standing, to them, is more than respect to others - perhaps it equals honoring the flag. And from a Jehova's Witness POV, that's a no-no. I can't imagine a JW would put manners ahead of religious conviction. I just don't think it's appropriate to expect everyone to stand without knowing the reasons why they might choose not to.

[MysticCat]

^^^ I see the distinction you're making, and I think it's a point well-taken. Perhaps a teacher, instead of simply telling those who chose not to recite the pledge that they still must stand, can find in it an opportunity to teach everyone -- those who don't recite can be encouraged to consider where they might find the line between good manners and violating their own consciouses, and those who do recite can be encouraged to respect the decisions of others.