TRANSGENDER: NPHC and NALFO question

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

It has to be in the back of his/her mind that this is something that will eventually happen. If a male feels like a female in every other aspect, why would associations be different?

Situations vary.

Our organizations aren't charged with caring about that aspect of it. We need to have safe guards to protect our membership and our organizations, assuming that this may become more of an issue years from now.

If a biological female wants to be socially recognized as a "he," HE should not be eligible for membership. These are sororities for WOMEN and not just females.

If said person makes the change after initiation, they should stand to revoke their membership. It isn't about the person's sexual orientation or how they dress. It is with their gender identity. There are other ways that people can have their membership revoked.

All in all, it's pretty safe to say that our organizations are thinking about this already, especially since this news story was released.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

If a biological female wants to be socially recognized as a "he," HE should not be eligible for membership. These are sororities for WOMEN and not just females.

This is the point I was going for.

All in all, it's pretty safe to say that our organizations are thinking about this already, especially since this news story was released.

True. I'm hoping some of the newer nationals are thinking about this, too.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

True. I'm hoping some of the newer nationals are thinking about this, too.

Especially those organizations that consider themselves "safe havens from the status quo and rejection letters."

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

It has to be in the back of his/her mind that this is something that will eventually happen. If a male feels like a female in every other aspect, why would associations be different?

Not necessarily. Not all people may be aware or understand their "true nature". Much less know that they can "transition" at some point. Especially for someone as young as 18.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

^^^ But who's to say an 18-year old, second semester freshman who pledges an NPHC org knows at that age that they're going to go through with a gender transition?

Of course I know that I'm swerving, but you've always been good to me when I asked sincere questions in the past:

Don't you think that the national identities (I mean something like "images," but more substantial and true of the ideals of the groups) of the individual NPHC groups would, in almost all cases, keep a transgendered person from fully identifying with a group for his or her birth gender? (I apologize for not being sure of the term. I mean first biological gender, before any transitioning.)

For example, I have a hard time thinking that someone who felt biologically a man would be interested in joining a women's group in 99% of the cases. I know we've got the case in the news recently, but I think it's pretty exceptional.

And in an unrelated question, what percentage of NPHC members do you think would consider a transgendered person worthy of membership? (I'll go ahead and say that I think the vast majority of NPC members and IFC members would be uncomfortable with a transgendered member, although not a vast majority of NPC/IFC GreekChat users willing to speak up in a thread about the issue will feel this way.)

I don't think that these members find the transgendered less than human or anything super horrible, but because my perception from the outside is that a member might take seriously the idea of being an Alpha Phi Alpha man or a Delta Sigma Theta woman so that someone with any gender related issue might, in their minds, fail to live up to the ideals of the group based on that complication alone. It may be an elite thing as much as a gender thing.

ETA: I see that the conversation has kind of passed me by while I was composing. People expressed what I was thinking while I was trying to figure out how to say it.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by TSteven

Not necessarily. Not all people may be aware or understand their "true nature". Much less know that they can "transition" at some point. Especially for someone as young as 18.

A decade ago, I would have agreed. Today? Not so much.

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

A decade ago, I would have agreed. Today? Not so much.

Why is that? I am not challenging you, just curious as to why you feel that way.

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Of course I know that I'm swerving, but you've always been good to me when I asked sincere questions in the past:

Don't you think that the national identities (I mean something like "images," but more substantial and true of the ideals of the groups) of the individual NPHC groups would, in almost all cases, keep a transgendered person from fully identifying with a group for his or her birth gender? (I apologize for not being sure of the term. I mean first biological gender, before any transitioning.)

For example, I have a hard time thinking that someone who felt biologically a man would be interested in joining a women's group in 99% of the cases. I know we've got the case in the news recently, but I think it's pretty exceptional.

And in an unrelated question, what percentage of NPHC members do you think would consider a transgendered person worthy of membership? (I'll go ahead and say that I think the vast majority of NPC members and IFC members would be uncomfortable with a transgendered member, although not a vast majority of NPC/IFC GreekChat users willing to speak up in a thread about the issue will feel this way.)

I don't think that these members find the transgendered less than human or anything super horrible, but because my perception from the outside is that a member might take seriously the idea of being an Alpha Phi Alpha man or a Delta Sigma Theta woman so that someone with any gender related issue might, in their minds, fail to live up to the ideals of the group based on that complication alone. It may be an elite thing as much as a gender thing.

ETA: I see that the conversation has kind of passed me by while I was composing. People expressed what I was thinking while I was trying to figure out how to say it.

I once wrote a paper that connected Yoruba deities to something I called the "archetypical" NPHC member, which was defined as something in between a stereotype and an ideal. So I'll just use that term for now.

I think that some NPHC archetypes are probably more entrenched than others. Yes, I do believe there is an archetype for each NPHC org, but I think for some people, the values themselves possibly transcend the gender identity. Possibly. Depends on the person.

I am not transgendered. I can only go by the spectrum of transgender people who I do know and work with. I think it's entirely possible that someone could be fighting their gender identity hard enough where they'd pursue an org of their birth/biological gender in their late teens and early twenties. I liken it to gay men who get married to a woman not fully grasping their sexual identity before they commit to marriage.

The case in the news.... well, let me just say she doesn't even look like a boy to me, so I could understand the chapter's reluctance to accept that s/he was more than just a masculine Lesbian. What I don't understand is this particular person's insistence on being a "man" but pledging a sorority with "Finer Womanhood" as a guiding principle -- especially when there are not one, but two coed service-based GLOs on that campus. But that's for another thread.

Over the past few years, I've been more exposed to the T in LGBT, and I can say without hesitation that if a female-to-male transgender aspirant excelled in all other qualifications, I would vote favorably upon him, regardless of prior sorority affiliation. The likelihood of them actually being in a sorority previously would probably be slim. Do I think my fraternity at large shares my beliefs? No. But I do believe there are a few chapters of every organization who would do the same.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by TSteven

Why is that? I am not challenging you, just curious as to why you feel that way.

Youth that feel this way nowadays have people to relate to on TV (Isis on ANTM, Katelynn from RW-Brooklyn, etc). Plus, the internet gives them the opportunity to educate themselves and find others with similar thoughts/feelings.

[APhiAnna]

I guess I am just confused why a transgendered person would want to belong to an org that represented their former gender. I can see, I guess, wanting to join a fraternity if you had just changed from a woman to a man, but joining a sorority? It seems a little like the "man" who gave birth and is pregnant again...if something about you wants so badly to be in a sorority, or be a mother, then when do you start to question if you really do feel like a man in the first place?

This is not meant to be rude or discriminatory, it is just something that has always bugged me. If you still want to hold on to some major aspects of your former gender, then maybe a little more thought should be taken as to if you identify as a transgendered person or a "masculine woman".

[Senusret I]

^^^ I think most of us would agree with at least portions of your opinion, even though it's not quite what we're talking about here.

[UGAalum94]

Senusret I, I didn't think you were transgendered, for the record. I don't know if you said that as a point of emphasis or if you thought I equated being G with being T.

My own personal jury is still out on transgenderedness generally. I haven't known enough transgendered people personally to really understand it at the level where I'll accept it as a matter of identity where the problem is with the sex organs/characteristics nature assigned rather than a psychological issue.

But fortunately for the transgendered, no one is waiting for my opinion, and since I generally want people to be treated well and with kindness in real life, I don't think my thoughts are likely to cause any transgendered person to have a negative experience.

[Senusret I]

^^^ I didn't think you thought that, I was just underscoring my own limited understanding of transgenderness, too.

[APhiAnna]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

^^^ I think most of us would agree with at least portions of your opinion, even though it's not quite what we're talking about here.

Oh sorry, I didn't make sense, I was referring to the Zeta Phi Beta transgendered story that was alluded to somewhere in this thread, not the thread as a whole.

[DiamondAthena]

Ok this is from a newer National MCGLO, member of NMCG (which does not govrern such things, yet)

I know we don't have any specific provisions for this in our bylaws but we do frown on accepting women who have deactivated from other orgs.

That being said I know that some ppl who eventually end up having gender reassignment struggle with their identity and how to identify themselves. So if say an 18 yr old freshman was struggling with gender issues and pledged a fraternity in an attempt to fit in, then as a 24 yr old graduate transgendered woman decided that she loved greek life overall but needed to find a sisterhood, since she is now a woman and can no longer participate in greek life via her frat wanted to join, idk what would happen. I don't know if ppl change their gender and never look back or if they tend to be more open about their past life, because why would you share something like that knowing it could keep you out of an org? There are some things that you should not tell if you can keep yourself from being discriminated against.

My personal thoughts, don't tell me you want to be my soror, but ask me to call you brother!