Kappa Beta Gamma/Kappa Delta

[chitownxo]

Kappadivastart --

Here's the thing that you're missing...the chapter that you love so much? That was built on the backs on the members of the former KBG chapter who came before you. In my opinion, you sold out that sisterhood for another one. You don't have to agree with my assessment; frankly, I don't care if you do. I know that several of your alumni feel that way.

I do know that your group never contacted members and told them of the change. I don't think it would have been a difficult thing to trot over to the Alumni Relations Office on Pearson Street and request a list of names.

I still remain unimpressed with the way the situation was handled.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by chitownxo

Kappadivastart --

Here's the thing that you're missing...the chapter that you love so much? That was built on the backs on the members of the former KBG chapter who came before you. In my opinion, you sold out that sisterhood for another one. You don't have to agree with my assessment; frankly, I don't care if you do. I know that several of your alumni feel that way.

I do know that your group never contacted members and told them of the change. I don't think it would have been a difficult thing to trot over to the Alumni Relations Office on Pearson Street and request a list of names.

I still remain unimpressed with the way the situation was handled.

I don't like to get into the middle of this fight, but to be fair, the alumnae can't be too pissed off if they weren't actively working to improve the chapter that they love. None of this occurred in a vacuum. It's really easy to second guess what these young women decided to do, but they obviously felt it was the best thing for their sisters. If my chapter decided to quit AOII because IHQ was nonresponsive and none of the alumnae were around to help, I'd be upset, but it would be at IHQ and my fellow chapter alumnae.

[chitownxo]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I don't like to get into the middle of this fight, but to be fair, the alumnae can't be toI o pissed off if they weren't actively working to improve the chapter that they love. None of this occurred in a vacuum. It's really easy to second guess what these young women decided to do, but they obviously felt it was the best thing for their sisters. If my chapter decided to quit AOII because IHQ was nonresponsive and none of the alumnae were around to help, I'd be upset, but it would be at IHQ and my fellow chapter alumnae.

When the word started to get out to the alumnae that a change might be taking place, calls were made to the LUC Panhellenic Office. I know of at least two women who were told (none of which I'm related to, BTW) that no change was taking place. At best, whomever these ladies talked to was/were misinformed about the situation...at worst they were lied to.

These ladies should have come clean to their alumnae base and told them what was happening. They decided to hide this from their sisters, and I think that's shady.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by chitownxo

When the word started to get out to the alumnae that a change might be taking place, calls were made to the LUC Panhellenic Office. I know of at least two women who were told (none of which I'm related to, BTW) that no change was taking place. At best, whomever these ladies talked to was/were misinformed about the situation...at worst they were lied to.

These ladies should have come clean to their alumnae base and told them what was happening. They decided to hide this from their sisters, and I think that's shady.

You're assuming that they actively tried to hide the situation. From the perspective of a chapter adviser, I don't think the chapter I advise would think twice about contacting alumnae about anything if an adviser didn't suggest it first. I think that the situation at LUC was unfortunate, but it certainly doesn't mean that these girls are bad people, disloyal, malicious or shady. I'll agree that they failed to do things that would have kept their KBG alumnae sisters from harboring ill will towards them, but that could be chalked up to simple immaturity. I have to agree with kappadivastar that people are unfairly casting aspersions on her chapter sisters. Maybe what they did was something the rest of us wouldn't have, but none of us were in their position either.

[kappadivstar]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Judas Priest, this thing has more lives than the Mary Kay thread. From what I was told from various sources, I stand by what I posted. As I said, if LUC was that anti-KBG, they would have pushed NPC affiliation long before this.

And I don't think "things change" is an excuse for leaving 50 years worth of alumnae completely in the dark. Freaking call them, post a notice concerning the possible change in the alum newspaper, put it on your website, use common courtesy. Maybe they would have understood and rallied and improved KBG overall by getting involved themselves...but oh well, guess we'll never know because "things change."

Well, what you heard "from various sources" is probably a little less true than say, what's coming from me, oh I don't know BECAUSE I WAS THERE.
Have you ever set foot on LUC's campus? Have you spoken with our Panhel and asked them why they wanted KBG gone? Are you a member of KBG? Do you know ANYTHING about our alum policies? Do you ACTUALLY think there is an alum newspaper? Because there isn't. And for the record, we had an alumnae mailing list, and everyone on it received a letter. If someone didn't sign up, then excuse me for not having their address from 50 years ago. But like I said, one of our problems with KBG was lack of organization. We didn't have a national website to put up an announcement. We couldn't get everyone's addresses, because nobody from nationals would ever return our calls. Oh. And we DID post it on our website.

I hate that you act as if you know what's going on, because you are not a member of either organization, and have absolutely NO firsthand knowledge of the situation. We were only able to speak with one national officer, and I can guarantee you, it wasn't BootyKBG. Like I said, we had 10-11 different NPC organizations that were interested in colonizing our group. It appears to me that you and BootKBG are the only people really offended by this situation.

As I also pointed out before, it was not our choice to close down KBG. I said before, they tried to come in and have an informal recruitment, and were told by Panhel that they were not welcome on campus. This isn't because we blackballed KBG. Panhel's urging was one of the many reasons we decided to go NPC. I don't understand why everyone has such a problem believing this, because its definitely not the first time a school has told all local organizations that they had to go NPC. John Carroll? I understand KBG wasn't a local, but it wasn't NPC, and that is what Panhel and the University wanted. We didn't say, "KBG sucks. Make them go away". If Loyola opens for expansion in the fall and KBG has gotten organized and wants to colonize, I seriously doubt any of our girls would be bitter about it. I for one, would wish them luck.

The only reason I even brought this thread back up is that I hate how it makes Kappa and our school look. I think you need to respect that. And if you can't, maybe it will give you some solace to know that in one more year, every single formerly KBG member will have graduated, and none of the "disloyal asshats" will be around anymore. Because as I stated earlier, I seriously doubt any of the new members from the last 3 classes have an idea there ever was a KBG.

Originally Posted by chitownxo

When the word started to get out to the alumnae that a change might be taking place, calls were made to the LUC Panhellenic Office. I know of at least two women who were told (none of which I'm related to, BTW) that no change was taking place. At best, whomever these ladies talked to was/were misinformed about the situation...at worst they were lied to.

These ladies should have come clean to their alumnae base and told them what was happening. They decided to hide this from their sisters, and I think that's shady.

I can understand how you are angered by the situation, because you actually have a personal tie. I honestly don't know why Panhel would have told you that nothing was going on, unless it was before the Fall that we were open for expansion. We had to get panhel's approval and help to notify the NPC groups that we were looking to colonize, so they were well aware.

And we honestly did try to contact the alumnae. Yes, I admit, we didn't contact EVERY SINGLE MEMBER, but we had a list of alumnae who had signed up for newsletters. We put the information on our chapter website. I guess we could have tried harder, but what can I say? We were college students. We had a lot of stuff going on, with installing a new chapter, being members of several organizations, and studying of course. And I have to say, we were a lot less organized as a KBG chapter. This could have been helped by the addition of an adviser...

I truly am sorry that your mom was upset by our actions. This is something that we took into account when we made the choice to disaffiliate from KBG. We knew the risk, and we took it.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by kappadivstar

I guess we could have tried harder, but what can I say? We were college students.

Nice.

And for the record, I meant the Loyola alum newspaper, not anything from KBG. It's a better way to reach alumni in general, for ALL Greek groups. Then again, considering how KBG was treated by the school, it's debatable they would have printed it. It seems like a very weird (and by weird I mean rotten) attitude for a religious-affiliated school to take towards a group who was founded with that religious affiliation.

And also for the record, I am far from the only person offended by this situation - read the rest of the thread.

[SWTXBelle]

We can't go back and change the past - but maybe we can use this thread to offer some positive advice to struggling non-NPC chapters. (Come to think of it, there may be lessons here for NPCs, too.) I haven't the background to do so, but perhaps others on this thread can.

[Denise_DPhiE]

Originally Posted by kappadivstar

Like I said, we had 10-11 different NPC organizations that were interested in colonizing our group. It appears to me that you and BootKBG are the only people really offended by this situation.

First, let me say that I am enlightened by this KBG/LUC and KBG/F&M scenario.

That is not to say I was not completely offended that any group would drop their letters to join another. As Director of Extension since 1996, I would not apply for such an "opportunity". I saw the listing in the bulletin and decided it was someone elses trainwreck.

Several other NPC groups were in agreement. I believe the # of applications for consideration was closer to 6. Ten to eleven may have inquired but submitting extensionn materials is a time consuming process plus an expense for creating materials and shipping them. It would be public knowledge who presented so you could post that here (it would be in panhel minutes which are not secret). Who submitted would not be, it may be in some of our files (not mine, I didn't apply nor did I follow up on it) but that would not be common knowledge for anyone.

Again, thank you for putting the other side into perspective.

[kappadivstar]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Nice.

And for the record, I meant the Loyola alum newspaper, not anything from KBG. It's a better way to reach alumni in general, for ALL Greek groups. Then again, considering how KBG was treated by the school, it's debatable they would have printed it. It seems like a very weird (and by weird I mean rotten) attitude for a religious-affiliated school to take towards a group who was founded with that religious affiliation.

Actually, an article did go out in the Loyola alum newspaper. The big, bad jesuits who hate KBG allowed it. Its actually a magazine, and it goes out four times a year, so they probably didn't find out right away. The magazine went out in December and we were disaffiliated at this point. We affiliated with KKG in January. But if they get the newspaper and read it, then they knew. Let me just point out that every little suggestion you've offered we actually did. We couldn't really have done anything else short of storming headquarters and demanding a list and then flying out to each individual and knocking on their door...and I'm sorry we didn't do that, but everyone actually involved in the situation was satisfied. I suppose I could track down people now, just to make you happy, but then again, I don't really feel a need to appease someone who jumps into other people's business, acting like she knows what's going on when she is not a member of Kappa, has not been to our school, and is not a member of KBG, saying horrible things about a chapter, their national organization, a University, their Panhel, and now apparently, the jesuit institution as a whole.

I didn't come on here to fight with people or anything like that. You're acting as if we were SO excited to throw our KBG letters in a burning pile. It was a very difficult decision for us to disaffiliate from a group that we had once respected, but in our eyes, and from the looks of it, the F&M KBGs, we were completely alone. For us, it was either sink or swim and we had to make a decision to get out. At the rate things were, the KBG chapter would be closing around this time anyway, due to lack of support and interest.

You act as if we were such disloyal hypocrites, but you're missing something huge. We were NOT the only group that felt this way. The problem was not with us, but with the national organization of KBG. We were not demanding ridiculous things. We definitely didn't ask for a house. In fact, Kappa has offered to buy us a house, but the school administration who is still not hugely supportive of greek life refuses.

We are not perfect. Neither is any NPC. We are not "better" than KBG. We are not above any organization. As members of national, NPC organizations, you really can't understand the situation we were in. We did what was best for us. I'm sorry that you think otherwise, and I am deeply saddened by the fact that you are now against Kappa, our institution, and our members, but as I said earlier: we took a risk. We knew that not everyone would agree with our decision, but our members, and members of kappa across the US have supported our decision, and in the end, that's all that really matters.

Originally Posted by Denise_DPhiE

First, let me say that I am enlightened by this KBG/LUC and KBG/F&M scenario.

I saw the listing in the bulletin and decided it was someone elses trainwreck.

I believe the # of applications for consideration was closer to 6. Ten to eleven may have inquired but submitting extensionn materials is a time consuming process plus an expense for creating materials and shipping them. It would be public knowledge who presented so you could post that here (it would be in panhel minutes which are not secret). Who submitted would not be, it may be in some of our files (not mine, I didn't apply nor did I follow up on it) but that would not be common knowledge for anyone.

Again, thank you for putting the other side into perspective.

I checked with our current house chair, and she informed me that we had materials from 10 NPC groups. And I suppose I could post who presented, but whats the point? So we can discuss how those organizations are terrible as well?

[Ch2tf]

Originally Posted by kappadivstar

I'm sorry we didn't do that, but everyone actually involved in the situation was satisfied.

But that's just in NOT everyone was satisfied, and in fact it seems as if there were some who are very far from satisfied. This isn't necessarily a criticism of your group/chapter, but in dealing with undergraduate members of various GLOs I find that often younger adults have very little understanding or comprehension of how their decisions affect other people. While you alumnae were not on campus and didn't have to make the actual decision, they are very much involved.

The fact that you put a notice in a quarterly newsletter is "interesting" in that you pretty much admit it was too late by the time any of the alumnae would've found out. That isn't considerate or responsible, imo.

Just a question (more rhetorical than one in which I expect an actual answer from), when you say "we" who exactly are you talking about. Where you on the committees that sent out these letters, newsletter articles, etc.? I ask because I'm a bit of a conspiracy theorist, but the things that others have said weren't done and your counterclaims that they were lead me to believe there was a certain disconnect in these efforts.

Originally Posted by kappadivstar

I am deeply saddened by the fact that you are now against Kappa, our institution, and our members, but as I said earlier: we took a risk. We knew that not everyone would agree with our decision, but our members, and members of kappa across the US have supported our decision, and in the end, that's all that really matters.

I think the above statement is a bit melodramatic. To say that people are against Kappa is a bit much. It's more like a frowning upon the decisions made/how things were handled. And if you truly knew and prepared for people not agreeing with your decision, then this thread and some of the sentiments expressed should not be a surprise.

[ISUKappa]

Originally Posted by Denise_DPhiE

That is not to say I was not completely offended that any group would drop their letters to join another. As Director of Extension since 1996, I would not apply for such an "opportunity". I saw the listing in the bulletin and decided it was someone elses trainwreck.

I personally feel my organization puts a lot of consideration into and is actually on the conservative side when colonizing new chapters. For more than a decade, they were only colonizing roughly one chapter per year. I also personally feel if the expansion committee didn't feel the situation at Loyola was aboveboard, they would not have gone any further in the colonization process. But, really, that doesn't matter any more. What's done is done and the Eta Lambda chapter will soon celebrate its first anniversary.

Originally Posted by Ch2tf

The fact that you put a notice in a quarterly newsletter is "interesting" in that you pretty much admit it was too late by the time any of the alumnae would've found out. That isn't considerate or responsible, imo.

They might not have had any control over when the information in the quarterly magazine was published. If the magazine reached Loyola alumni in December, that means the magazine was probably printed sometime in November and the information in that magazine had to be written and laid out in October. Even if the group had gotten the information to the magazine earlier in the year, it still might have been bumped to a later issue due to space.

[blackngoldengrl]

I read through this pretty quickly, it's a very interesting situation for sure. The thing I kept thinking about was: "if my chapter were struggling and needed help, I would know for sure!" As a recent alumna, I try to stay current on what is going on. I feel like that is true now, since I didn't graduate so long ago, but maybe in a few more years, it might be less true, who knows? But I would hope that there would be some sort of reach out to alumnae in an effort to get the help the chapter needed. I don't recall if anyone mentioned that happened (on either campus), but if I wouldn't place all the blame on the chapter if I were finding out too late.

As to the comments on joining an org, then disaffiliating and joining another-well if it's against the rules that's one thing. Seems like no rules were broken from what I've read. If it's seems unethical that is another.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by blackngoldengrl

I read through this pretty quickly, it's a very interesting situation for sure. The thing I kept thinking about was: "if my chapter were struggling and needed help, I would know for sure!" As a recent alumna, I try to stay current on what is going on. I feel like that is true now, since I didn't graduate so long ago, but maybe in a few more years, it might be less true, who knows? But I would hope that there would be some sort of reach out to alumnae in an effort to get the help the chapter needed. I don't recall if anyone mentioned that happened (on either campus), but if I wouldn't place all the blame on the chapter if I were finding out too late.

As to the comments on joining an org, then disaffiliating and joining another-well if it's against the rules that's one thing. Seems like no rules were broken from what I've read. If it's seems unethical that is another.

I think a lot of us have a hard time accepting that this chapter could just hand over their letters for a new set, but we also have organizations that respond when our chapters need help. Our organizations have earned our loyalty. It's one thing to expect our sisters to respect a bond that has benefits flowing both ways, but it is completely another thing to hold a chapter to this standard when they are not feeling the benefits of sisterhood outside of their own chapter. I find it sad that it had to get to the point that the LUC and F&M chapters felt it necessary to look for new affiliation, but where there is smoke...

[Low C Sharp]

You know, I'm not that concerned about the feelings of alumnae who cut themselves completely out of the loop. I was in an undergraduate organization that meant a lot to me. I've been out for ten years now, and I live 1000 miles away, but I know who all this year's officers are, they know who I am, I attend all the reunions, I send my congratulations whenever they take new members, and I visit the group whenever I'm in town (about once a year). If the undergrads wanted to make a radical change like dissolving the group, I'd expect to be consulted...but that's because I'm in their face all the time and I'm very easy to find. I think if it's been 25 years since you said boo to your chapter, it's unreasonable to pitch a fit about changes they made without asking you. That's especially true at a school like LUC, where a large majority of students have historically come from, and stayed in, the Chicago area. If you care about your organization's traditions, take actions to preserve them, or else don't complain when they die from neglect.
________

[33girl]

Originally Posted by chitownxo

...some of the LUC alums STILL do not know about the change. My mom had lunch with a couple of her pledge sisters a month or so ago, and they were shocked this happened...especially since the LUC KBG girls were still soliciting donations from their alumni the summer before the switch.

.