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  #16  
Old 06-14-2007, 11:25 PM
a.e.B.O.T. a.e.B.O.T. is offline
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I agree with you TOTALLY... unfortunately, we are trying to kill an age old reputation that fraternity men are stupid hazing drunks, and therefor, we need to take it upon ourselves to ruin that reputation by going above and beyond that reputation. Drinking under the house letters just does not help that reputation... its not about what we are, but how the outside perceives us. We are an organization that relies on recruiting quality future members like every fraternity, and we need to go above and beyond the call of duty to make sure that happens. If that means making a few sacrifices like not drinking in our chapter house, well, damn it, I think its worth it.
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  #17  
Old 06-15-2007, 10:45 AM
ZZ-kai- ZZ-kai- is offline
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"Where applicable" is key to this discussion. If you joined a chapter that is substance free (either by choice or by re-org rules), then you should not blame anyone other than yourself.

It's kinda like buying an SUV. You love it, it looks great, rides great, has a sweet stereo system and rims, and then that person complains about bad gas mileage. Well, that just comes with the territory.

These are things you guys can change. Go to convention, lobby the other Chapter presidents - start this venture 6 months before Convention so you can make some headway. Make change. That's what's great about Beta, we govern ourselves (as much as you guys think we don't). Rules in place today are there for a reason, not for fun.

I'll never forget when I was chapter counselor and I was woke up at 2:00 AM by my chapters Risk Manager during their Beta Week, he stated that a pledge got 'cleaner in his eyes' and needed to seek help. I immediately went over to the house and found a big Gatorade cooler filled with Captain and Coke and a bunch of drunk idiot 19 year old kids.

Don't tell me alcohol in chapter houses 'is a good thing'.

If you guys hate Beta so much, why continue with it?
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  #18  
Old 06-15-2007, 10:51 AM
ZZ-kai- ZZ-kai- is offline
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Oh yeah, I want to add this as well. Drinking under the age of 21 is illegal, that is US law, not Beta's law. We must follow US laws before Beta's rules. I personally have ZERO issue with alcohol being consumed in a responsible manner (LEGALLY) within a chapter house. HOWEVER, if a chapter is dry (either by choice or re-org/sanctions), then it shouldn't and CAN'T be in the house. A rule is a rule, is a rule, is a rule. If you can't follow it, then move on....if you chose to join even with these stipulations, then that's your own fault and you shouldn't be bitching about it.

And Oldest_Pledge, why so bitter towards Beta as of late?
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  #19  
Old 06-16-2007, 12:56 AM
a.e.B.O.T. a.e.B.O.T. is offline
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yeah, what he said
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  #20  
Old 06-18-2007, 07:44 PM
BigRedBeta BigRedBeta is offline
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Interestingly enough the tobacco issue was a big deal this past semester in my chapter. The issue came up, several hours were spent discussing it in chapter, with what I'm told was pretty acrimonious conversations, and then failed to pass.

In the end though, our current RM is also the IFC RM and so he just went and talked to the Vice Chancellor for Student Affairs and got language put into the agreement for University Approved Housing that all the chapters have to sign and comply with.

From a risk stand point, I guess it could be argued that it's a good idea (though candles and the like also need to be more closely monitored)...and the dorms on campus are smoke free now too, so it's really not that big of deal.
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  #21  
Old 06-19-2007, 01:37 PM
Coramoor Coramoor is offline
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Alcohol is not going to bring any thing to the surface that is not already there. If a chapter acts like a bunch of drunken assholes, even when sober they will be assholes. The only thing this rule is doing is pushing many potential good guys away because they do not want to rush a house that is dry or pushes the no-alcohol clause so harshly.

When you see people drink in their homes or at a family gathering...do you automatically assume them to be drunken rednecks? Why would you make the same assumption about seeing a guy drink on the front porch of his frat house?

Along those lines, if someone is going to judge me purely for that reason and not join my frat...well, chances are I wouldn't have offered them a bid even if they did come and rush. Guys like that are not the men I want in my chapter. We had brothers that did not drink or smoke and there was no problem with that.

The SUV example was awful. Not the same thing at all. I didn't join when it was dry and I think that it is a terrible idea to place so much pressure on this single issue. I know that the GF has to protect itself, yet making it's members give up lawful privileges of age is wrong.
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  #22  
Old 06-19-2007, 03:04 PM
ZZ-kai- ZZ-kai- is offline
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Can you give me a real-life example of a Beta chapter undeservingly getting 'substance-free' living put on them?
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  #23  
Old 06-19-2007, 04:10 PM
Coramoor Coramoor is offline
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How about every chapter that has been re-colonized in the last few years.

They may have been shut down for various reasons; hazing, low numbers, finances, alcohol/drugs. The re-colonized chapter is all new brothers that were not guilty of making the mistakes that shut down their chapters in the past.
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  #24  
Old 06-19-2007, 10:27 PM
ZZ-kai- ZZ-kai- is offline
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So you can't give any real-life examples and all you can do is complain about the way things are?

Good chapters aren't shut down for no reason. 'Bad' (or shall I say troubled?) chapters are given chance after chance and they basically shut themselves down. IE, look at Lambda...I'd rather see chapters shut down, then have someone die and their lawyers take our GF to court and put all of us out of business due to lawsuits.

Re-colonized chapter (or colonies) come on campus, recruit and publicly tell people what they're about, how their house will be, how they're motivated to succeed and not the typical 'animal house'. When members choose to join that said chapter KNOWINGLY when it's substance free, and then complain about it (see some general chit chat within the Beta forum) then they're fucking idiots. Those are the guys who should have kept walking to the next frat house....

Again, the guys who don't like it and hate Beta so much, should just quit. Nobody's going to listen to them anyway.
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Last edited by ZZ-kai-; 06-21-2007 at 12:13 PM.
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  #25  
Old 06-21-2007, 12:09 PM
Coramoor Coramoor is offline
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Dude, I very much doubt that anyone here hates Beta. If that was the case, why would we care what is going on at the national level. I strongly disagree with some of the policies and actions it has taken over the last several years, and see a need for a change, but that hardly means I hate it and want to quit being a Beta.

New brothers do join under the idea of a dry house.

Beta does a great sell when going to a new campus. That much is obvious. What I do not know is how much they stress certain aspects of being a fraternity once a chapter is established.

I see that from some of the posts of the guys here that are part of a new chapter and how many problems they are having with brotherhood, sorority relations, recruitment, and the social aspects of being in a fraternity. All that without having alcohol present...so maybe these problems are not caused by alcohol but by the men Beta is recruiting.

You asked for an example and I gave one. A chapter that just started is under that policy-yet they were not the ones that did whatever it was that shut the chapter down.

Getting back to the point, once again I see no convincing arguments that alcohol takes away from brotherhood or ones integrity. All I see is deflections pointing towards 'it's the rule' or 'we don't want to be animal house'.

Hell, if a chapter is newly re-charted and has shown that it is in good standing and decides that they want to allow alcohol...why not let them? They are of age and legal adults. It makes no sense to me that being a Beta and being active enough to live in the house should take away from my freedoms.
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  #26  
Old 06-21-2007, 12:16 PM
ZZ-kai- ZZ-kai- is offline
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Is it a policy today that new chapters and re-orgs are substance free? My thoughts are they are not, only substance free housing is one of two reasons. A. The chapter voted this in themselves or B. It was a requirement of the GF and/or the HC Board of said chapter for re-colonizing (IE, Nebraska).

Challenge the policy, not the people upholding them. These things can be changed during conventions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coramoor View Post
You asked for an example and I gave one. A chapter that just started is under that policy-yet they were not the ones that did whatever it was that shut the chapter down.

Getting back to the point, once again I see no convincing arguments that alcohol takes away from brotherhood or ones integrity. All I see is deflections pointing towards 'it's the rule' or 'we don't want to be animal house'.
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  #27  
Old 06-22-2007, 07:46 AM
Coramoor Coramoor is offline
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Change the policy not the people....that makes no sense.

Would you continue to vote for the President of the US even if you didn't like his policies? Maybe if he was voted in again he would change...
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  #28  
Old 06-23-2007, 12:21 PM
a.e.B.O.T. a.e.B.O.T. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coramoor View Post
Change the policy not the people....that makes no sense.

Would you continue to vote for the President of the US even if you didn't like his policies? Maybe if he was voted in again he would change...

Well, the people upholding the policy (the AO) are not the people who make or change the policy... so, he makes perfect sense.


If you were trying to fit your example into what he was saying... its more like... You wouldn't change the judicial system cause you dont like the policy... you WOULD change the president and senators etc ... thats what he means if we were adapting it to your example

Last edited by a.e.B.O.T.; 06-23-2007 at 12:23 PM.
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  #29  
Old 06-23-2007, 09:06 PM
EE-BO EE-BO is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZ-kai- View Post
Is it a policy today that new chapters and re-orgs are substance free? My thoughts are they are not, only substance free housing is one of two reasons. A. The chapter voted this in themselves or B. It was a requirement of the GF and/or the HC Board of said chapter for re-colonizing (IE, Nebraska).
I finally had some free time to go through and read the entire document, and I agree with your assessment. The "checklist"- as I would describe it- is fairly clear and it seems to me that this line may be worded to encourage substance free housing, but it certainly does not indicate it is required.

It has never been a requirement of Men of Principle in any form that a chapter have a substance free house- and in my experience that is the number one misunderstanding out there in the brotherhood, for whatever reason.

I personally do not like the idea of required substance-free houses. Too much babysitting at a time when young men should be making their own decisions and living with the consequences.

If a chapter is so bad off that they need to be policed to this extent, there is a serious problem that no rule such as this (which is not easily enforced if a chapter does not want it in place) is going to address.

And some of the most grave RM violations and willful damage of property we have seen in recent years happened in substance-free houses.

That said, there are legimitate arguments that form the basis for substance-free houses which I think could take a better aligned form.

For example, it is not a bad idea to prohibit organized parties in chapter houses. These are the times when strangers come in and do bad things, when houses get torn up, when furniture gets damaged and when guys like me who actually studied at night were kept up to 4 in the morning (though it did not bother me- I tuned it out- it certainly did not make for a very scholastically supportive environment.)

With a policy like this, you do not police and babysit the actives- avoid a significant number, if not the majority, of risk management nightmares.

Better still, you cut way down on damage to the house. In the past 30 years, my chapter's previous house had 2 major renovations to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars.

Considering the costs of even acquiring a new house today on many campuses, alumni are even less interested in (or likely to) write checks to do 6-figure renovations to torn up houses every 10-15 years. And with rising property taxes and costs of occupancy, rent and chapter dues are less able to offer a share towards a long-term fund to do those renovations every decade or so.


A few months ago, I printed out a map of West Campus here at the University of Texas and made a few copies.

On one copy, I marked where all the major fraternity and sorority houses are today.

And on other copies I marked where those same houses were 10, 20 and 30 years ago.

Plus I reflected on events in my time at college and talked with alumni about major events in their time.

If you compare the maps, over time the sororities have remained in place- many of them in prime locations within a block or two of campus.

The fraternities on the other hand, have gradually moved further away- plus the number of houses has been reduced. And in MOST cases, I was able to trace a chapter house movement to the chapter having been shut down due to a serious risk management incident.

And today with all the redevelopment and West Campus going condo- there are not many more places for a fraternity to move anymore. This story is very powerful at UT, but it plays out in some form at many other colleges too as cities become more dense and university enrollment rises.

I am not going to be a hypocrite and babysitter and say all chapters need to be substance-free. I do not see that as the answer.

But we have to do something in a way that makes today better than yesterday and also prepares us for a present and future environment that is different from the past.

Stereotypes about the old days are just that- stereotypes. Texas is full of decades of men who were Greek at UT and are major leaders, businessmen and property owners who have achieved enormous success.

If you want to say the past was all bad, then you are disparaging a pretty illustrious list of our alumni at any school- and prepare to suffer the same fate when a new generation decides you did it wrong.

The answer is, I think, to preserve self-governance and choice- but also provide certain basic rules (like no organized parties in chapter houses) which will make sense to the actives and which they can endorse without feeling like they are giving up their right to learn from experience as did those who came before them.

And again- if a chapter and/or Housing Corp want to go substance-free, more power to them. I cannot think of a single reason why that is a bad idea if the men whose work and effort will sustain the chapter want to do it.
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  #30  
Old 06-24-2007, 02:03 PM
ECUJacob ECUJacob is offline
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^ great post.
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