Israel at War? - Page 13

RACooper · #**181** 07-31-2006, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rudey

Rob it's simple. You don't consider Hezbollah to be a terrorist group. That's very telling.

And the UN is busy murdering and raping Africans so who knew they had time to cry over this?

And Hezbollah cares about civilians. That's why it continues to use them as human shields. That's why it continues to fire rockets at them. That's why they bomb buildings in Argentina.

People die in a war. It's not easy. Was there ever a single war where civilians did not die? It's a shame. It's sad. But it's reality. It can all stop when Hezbollah stops firing rockets at Israel and releases the soldiers it kidnapped while Europe and the UN admit that they allowed the country to become a large terrorist state.

-Rudey

WTF? Where the hell did I ever say that Hezbollah isn't a terrorist group?

As for your f-ck'ed up little jihad against the UN, and seemingly blaming it for Israel's actions

Look back at history jackass and you might see that it was Israel and the US that tied UNIFIL's hands and prohibited them both the manadate and the firepower to disarm Hezbollah and enforce a ceasefire along the blue-line - because they didn't want a force that would potentially have to use force against Israel in enforcing a cease-fire.

Rudey · #**182** 07-31-2006, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RACooper

WTF? Where the hell did I ever say that Hezbollah isn't a terrorist group?

As for your f-ck'ed up little jihad against the UN, and seemingly blaming it for Israel's actions

Look back at history jackass and you might see that it was Israel and the US that tied UNIFIL's hands and prohibited them both the manadate and the firepower to disarm Hezbollah and enforce a ceasefire along the blue-line - because they didn't want a force that would potentially have to use force against Israel in enforcing a cease-fire.

Umm you defended Hezbollah as being more than just a terror group and even tried to justify what they were doing as if it was a bunch of freedom fighters (when clearly they are a Lebanese terror group and not Hamas btw). You talked about all the nice things Hezbollah did. And my reply to you was that if someone stabbed your mother and fed you bread afterwards, they would still be a murderer.

And Rob, your anger problem is pretty bad and you should consider seeking help. Under the UN's watch, the area was stockpiled with rockets and missile launchers while the UN soldiers took a break from murdering and raping Africans to serve as human shields.

-Rudey

Rudey · #**183** 07-31-2006, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSigkid

And I'd like to note this point has not been answered.

Also, I'm wondering where this "anti-UN media" is, because everything I've seen in the U.S. (NBC, CBS, ABC, Boston Globe, etc.) has been free of anti-UN literature. Same for this notion that conservatives in the US are anti-UN.

Exactly. I've never seen any anti-UN literature in most media. Rob just comes on to blast America and Canada and will keep talking about how Republicans and Fox news and Israel are controlling everything.

-Rudey

DeltAlum · #**184** 07-31-2006, 11:03 AM

Just a couple of thoughts.

The UN as a peacekeeper is not particularly efficient. How can it be with all of the polictical pressure brought to bear on it and the lack of any kind of forces of its own.

Israel is going to take a lot of heat from the US and much of the rest of the world for killing not only numerous civilians (including women and children), but the UN troops as well. If they claim accidents, they are going to look like fools, if not they'll look bloodthirsty or uncaring. I'd guess that's why the US is suddenly pushing for a quick cease fire -- which we were not doing last week as I recall.

Hezbollah is not made up of nice people.

The war of words in this thread is sometimes more acrimonious than the one in the actual war. Neither are particularly entertaining.

RU OX Alum · #**185** 07-31-2006, 02:43 PM

I think there should be no cease fire. This war started before I was even born, and I hope everyone fighting in it dies, so that normal people there can regain control. Hezbollah isn't very nice, no but then again, would not exist in the first place if Israel hadn't invaded Lebannanon 20 years ago or whenever it was. There are criminals on both sides.

PhiPsiRuss · #**186** 07-31-2006, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

}...no but then again, would not exist in the first place if Israel hadn't invaded Lebannanon 20 years ago or whenever it was. There are criminals on both sides.

Do you think that Israel entered Lebanon in 1982 for shits and giggles? Before there was Hezbolah operating from Southern Lebanon, there was the PLO, and they were no angels either.

Hezbolah does not exist because of what happened 24 years ago. It was created in 1983 by Iran, and not by an indigenous response to local conditions. It exists in its current state because of Iran (mostly) and Syria.

This current war started when Iran coaxed Hezbolah to act as the G8 was meeting. Iran wanted to show the world that they could shake things up. Well, they shook things up and now there is a war.

We can debate whether or not Israel's response was appropriate, but no one is debating about who killed the first person. It was Hezbolah doing the dirty work for Iran.

DeltAlum · #**187** 07-31-2006, 03:40 PM

I won't attempt to repeat or even paraphrase, but there was a fascinating discussion of the current crisis on NPR's "Talk of the Nation" today.

The one comment that really hit me is that, save one which wasn't identified, every modern day war has cost more civilian lives than military.

I don't even remember who said it -- someone from Rand or the Naval War College or someone, but that's pretty dramatic.

shinerbock · #**188** 07-31-2006, 03:42 PM

Delt, I think they'd also agree that the recent conflicts are absolutely nothing compared to the loss of civilian life from WWI WWII and Vietnam.

Rudey · #**189** 07-31-2006, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Delt, I think they'd also agree that the recent conflicts are absolutely nothing compared to the loss of civilian life from WWI WWII and Vietnam.

In WWII the British accidentally bombed a children's hospital instead of a Gestapo office. Nobody likes it but it's not supposed to be pleasant.

-Rudey

shinerbock · #**190** 07-31-2006, 03:51 PM

Not to mention America pounding German cities and Japan.

RU OX Alum · #**191** 07-31-2006, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhiPsiRuss

Do you think that Israel entered Lebanon in 1982 for shits and giggles? Before there was Hezbolah operating from Southern Lebanon, there was the PLO, and they were no angels either.

Hezbolah does not exist because of what happened 24 years ago. It was created in 1983 by Iran, and not by an indigenous response to local conditions. It exists in its current state because of Iran (mostly) and Syria.

This current war started when Iran coaxed Hezbolah to act as the G8 was meeting. Iran wanted to show the world that they could shake things up. Well, they shook things up and now there is a war.

We can debate whether or not Israel's response was appropriate, but no one is debating about who killed the first person. It was Hezbolah doing the dirty work for Iran.

PLO aren't terrorists though.

PLO is better than Hezbollah and Hammas by a long shot. I'm not saying Iran doesn't control Hezbollah, but without Israel creating a bunch of conditions, then neither Hammas nor Hezbollah would exist, at least not as they do now. Bulldoze people's family's homes and run over teenagers with tanks anywhere else in the world, and you get human rights protestors from every country in the world that cares about such things. Say anything bad about Israel and you are terrorist if you're brown and anti-semetic if you're another color.

shinerbock · #**192** 07-31-2006, 04:00 PM

Former head of the PLO: Known terrorist.

PhiPsiRuss · #**193** 07-31-2006, 04:01 PM

It was von Clauswitz who foresaw that civilian populations would be part of this. We now see this being reversed by the U.S., with the use of technology that enables highly surgical strikes. There will still be collateral damage, but at least the effort is being made to minimize civilian casualties where possible. This is in sharp contrast to a group like Hezbollah that rarely even bothers to target Israel's military. They just go straight for the civilians.

DeltAlum · #**194** 07-31-2006, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhiPsiRuss

...They just go straight for the civilians.

Which is why they're called terrorists.

"Delt, I think they'd also agree that the recent conflicts are absolutely nothing compared to the loss of civilian life from WWI WWII and Vietnam."

Shiner. You're right. It's not something that people generally think about, though, I think.

Boy, was that a strange sentence.

_Opi_ · #**195** 07-31-2006, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhiPsiRuss

Do you think that Israel entered Lebanon in 1982 for shits and giggles? Before there was Hezbolah operating from Southern Lebanon, there was the PLO, and they were no angels either.

And what the Phalangist officers did under the command of the Israel government was not for "shits and giggles". They were "no angels either".