Tiers...

[Firehouse]

There has been a lot of discussion about tiers. I think that every fraternity/sorority system follows very predictable dynamics, and it becomes even more pronounced as the number of chapters increases.
In any system with, say, ten or more chapters, there are always only three tiers.

Tier I
This top tier comprises 20-25% of the fraternity chapters. In a system with 20 fraternities, five would be "top tier" chapters.
They are characterized by similarity in size, they rush the same men, they date in the same tier of sororities. They compete against each other in sports, on campus and in social prestige; they know all about each other, and they generally don't like each other.
They don't know and don't care much about the fraternities outside their small five-chapter circle. They all consider themselves to be elite, and their reputations and strength make it hard for them to screw up bad enough to drop out of their top tier status. They may cycle around so that one is on top one year and another is on top the next year, etc. but unless there is an upheaval there is little chance that they will fall out of their tier.

Tier III
The bottom tier contains about 10-15% of the fraternities. They are the most obvious bottom-feeders. No disrespect intended, but in the eyes of the system there is no question about who they are and why they are considered the weakest fraternities. They have not the vision, the ambition or the knowledge to rise up out of their hole. They could get better, but they don't know how and they talk themselves into believing that being small and powerless are virtues.

Tier II
This middle tier is the largest, and consists of a large, indistinct soup of fraternity chapters. In a system of 20 chapters, they are the ones ranking from #6 through #17 more or less. Within this large group, no one knows and no one really cares which one rises or falls above the others. Who knows or cares if the #14 fraternity suddenly surges and leaps up to #8?? There's no point in ranking chapters inside the II Tier. They float up and down, never breaking into Tier I, and never falling into the hellhole of Tier III.

Now, it's possible for any chapter to improve their standing and rise all the way to the top. But you have to know what you're doing, and hardly anyone does.

Shake-ups come when Tier I fraternities get kicked off for one misdeed or another and a spot among the elite opens up. The dynamic becomes unstable until someone rises out of Tier II and becomes a new fixture in Tier I.
I'm a Florida State alumnus and there was a huge upheaval here: since 2001, three of the top five fraternities have been kicked off campus. The dynamic became unstable and so the door was open for ambitious Tier II chapters to rise up and take their places. When that happened, the system's tiers solidified again.

The point is that all (or most) Greek systems share a very predictable dynamic. If I know the number of fraternities on a given campus, I can predict how many fraternities will be considered in the elite circle at the top, and how many will be looked down on as the wretches on the bottom.

[gtdxeric]

Originally Posted by Firehouse

If I know the number of fraternities on a given campus, I can predict how many fraternities will be considered in the elite circle at the top, and how many will be looked down on as the wretches on the bottom.

OK, I'll bite. 31 (not including NPHC or culturally-focused organizations), go!

[Firehouse]

Your signature suggests you're from Georgia Tech, one of the strongest fraternity systems in the south.
The answer is: six, with a seventh fraternity that thinks it's Tier I but it's not. The system's dynamic will be effected by the return of SAE. Someone will eventually be pushed out of the Top Tier to accomodate them.
In the bottom Tier III probably only three because of the strength of Tech.

How'd I do?

[gtdxeric]

Originally Posted by Firehouse

Your signature suggests you're from Georgia Tech, one of the strongest fraternity systems in the south.
The answer is: six, with a seventh fraternity that thinks it's Tier I but it's not. The system's dynamic will be effected by the return of SAE. Someone will eventually be pushed out of the Top Tier to accomodate them.
In the bottom Tier III probably only three because of the strength of Tech.

How'd I do?

Disclaimer: I'm about a year out of undergrad, and I think a female could probably answer this better than me... they see a lot more than any guy does, IMO.

You could make an argument for a top tier of 5-6 at Tech, but the composition changes a lot depending on how important Southernness is. You also start running into arguments like: ABC and DEF go after the same guys in the fall, and pretty much split them, therefore they must be on the same tier, right?

My point is, there's a fairly subtle transition from the top down at Tech, so the top tier is hard to demarcate. However, the bottom tier is much better defined, and consists of about 8-10 fraternities.

I know somebody's going to bring this up, so no, none of the fraternities at Tech would be considered "top tier" at an SEC school, but that's not what we're talking about here.

[DSTRen13]

Originally Posted by gtdxeric

Disclaimer: I'm about a year out of undergrad, and I think a female could probably answer this better than me... they see a lot more than any guy does, IMO.

You could make an argument for a top tier of 5-6 at Tech, but the composition changes a lot depending on how important Southernness is. You also start running into arguments like: ABC and DEF go after the same guys in the fall, and pretty much split them, therefore they must be on the same tier, right?

My point is, there's a fairly subtle transition from the top down at Tech, so the top tier is hard to demarcate. However, the bottom tier is much better defined, and consists of about 8-10 fraternities.

I know somebody's going to bring this up, so no, none of the fraternities at Tech would be considered "top tier" at an SEC school, but that's not what we're talking about here.

The thing with Tech fraternities, there are so many of them, and few are very big, they just don't tier very well ... I think pretty much everyone knows who is dead last , but other than that, it's all up for debate.

[banditone]

What size are the large chapters, medium, and small at Tech?

[SWTXBelle]

Not stupid - building houses that are very modern is a sure way for them to look dated in 20 years (look at all the "modern" monstrosities from the 60s - yuck). Using classic design (often Greek Revival) means the house will look good for decades.

[CrackerBarrel]

Originally Posted by Firehouse

Your signature suggests you're from Georgia Tech, one of the strongest fraternity systems in the south.

Ummmm, no. Just no. Like stop trying no. The only "strong fraternity systems" in the ACC are UVA, UNC, Clemson and kind of maybe parts of FSU's. The south has the SEC which has the strongest fraternity systems in the country, much less the region.

What awful Greek system have you been looking at recently that makes GT 's seem "strong"?

And that being said, there are almost never as many as 5 top tier houses. Top-tier means elite, and to go with your example of a 20 house system, a quarter of it isn't elite. The bottom tier is also a lot bigger than you think it is. There are some houses that will be bottom-tier almost anywhere and more that are campus specific, but the bottom tier will most of the time be at least twice the size of the top tier. And divide the middle tier into upper-middle and lower-middle at least.

At most schools outside the south, no house on campus would even sniff the top-tier at a southern school. Possibly not the middle tier either.

[Firehouse]

Originally Posted by CrackerBarrel

Ummmm, no. Just no. Like stop trying no. The only "strong fraternity systems" in the ACC are UVA, UNC, Clemson and kind of maybe parts of FSU's. The south has the SEC which has the strongest fraternity systems in the country, much less the region.

What awful Greek system have you been looking at recently that makes GT 's seem "strong"?

And that being said, there are almost never as many as 5 top tier houses. Top-tier means elite, and to go with your example of a 20 house system, a quarter of it isn't elite. The bottom tier is also a lot bigger than you think it is. There are some houses that will be bottom-tier almost anywhere and more that are campus specific, but the bottom tier will most of the time be at least twice the size of the top tier. And divide the middle tier into upper-middle and lower-middle at least.

At most schools outside the south, no house on campus would even sniff the top-tier at a southern school. Possibly not the middle tier either.

Crackerbarrel, with respect, perhaps we need to define why it is that you find "southern" fraternities superior to all other fraternities and fraternity systems.

You asked what makes Georgia Tech's system strong (and your implication that it is not). Georgia Tech's system is very old with very well established chapters; they are well housed, stable, large chapters and fraternity men populate student government and all major leadership positions. Tech has 31 fraternities - all big, solid nationals - and outside of Virginia Tech or possibly U-Florida that's probably the most in the south.

Yes, fraternities at most SEC schools are very well established and strong, but the "southern" fraternity systems are no more or less dominating of their campuses than the fraternity systems at: Missouri, Texas, Texas Tech, Kansas, Kansas State, Nebraska, Indiana, Illinois, Oklahaom, Oklahoma State, Cornell, Penn State, Southern California, Arizona...
In fact, I'd say the fraternity system at U-Arizona is probably stronger all-around than any in the south except Alabama (which has no peer in my opinion), Auburn and possibly Ole Miss. Even then, it's close and arguable.
The Betas at Oklahoma have 150 members plus 50 pledges and live in a house more majestic and awe-inspiring than any - any- in the south. You'd have a hard tme saying they are not "elite".
I love the south and I'm a fan of SEC fraternities, but the SEC fraternity systems are not superior to great fraternity systems in other parts of the country.

As far as your comment that "Top Tier means elite" and that "five out of 20 are not elite"...I respectfully disagree. The top 20% of any large system will tend to be elite. The top men tend to be drawn to the top fraternities. Claiming to be "selective" is something anyone can do. Being selective is only a virtue if you get selected back by the top rushees. On a big campus with a lot of rushees and a large number of fraternities, there are enough "elite" types to populate pledge classes for all the Tier I fraternities.
And, with respect, the truely bottom Tier III is always small, becasue bad fraternities tend to go out of business. The worst ones will fail and drop out of the system.
You may be exactly right about two levels in Tier II, but most people don't make the distinction among those in the middle.

Again, this discussion of your points comes back to how YOU define a superior fraternity system. If it depends to you on how many guys wear pastel shirts, then we'll have to agree to disagree about fraternities and their relative strengths. I respect your enthuiasm for fraternities and I have no doubt you are a stalwart and generous supporter of your chapter.

[CrackerBarrel]

Originally Posted by Firehouse

The Betas at Oklahoma have 150 members plus 50 pledges and live in a house more majestic and awe-inspiring than any - any- in the south. You'd have a hard tme saying they are not "elite".

They're Betas and they go to Oklahoma. I'll say it, nothing remotely elite about that. Also they aren't even a top-tier house at OU.

And I don't care how many people on campus are Greek, if there is nothing elite about those greeks (cough, PSU, 'Zona) then the whole campus being Greek is no different than the whole campus being GDIs. Sorry, but if you don't see anything other than having lots of houses and lots of people in them as being what makes a strong Greek system than we will never agree.

But I'll just go ahead and say that Texas is essentially a southern school, and they have an elite Greek system. Everywhere else you named is awful (although a lot are probably better than GT, since engineering students tend to be sooooo top-tier!!).

[nate2512]

Originally Posted by Firehouse

The Betas at Oklahoma have 150 members plus 50 pledges and live in a house more majestic and awe-inspiring than any - any- in the south.

Can you post a picture of that house, cause thats hard to believe.

[TexasWSP]

Originally Posted by Firehouse

Crackerbarrel, with respect, perhaps we need to define why it is that you find "southern" fraternities superior to all other fraternities and fraternity systems.

You asked what makes Georgia Tech's system strong (and your implication that it is not). Georgia Tech's system is very old with very well established chapters; they are well housed, stable, large chapters and fraternity men populate student government and all major leadership positions. Tech has 31 fraternities - all big, solid nationals - and outside of Virginia Tech or possibly U-Florida that's probably the most in the south.

Yes, fraternities at most SEC schools are very well established and strong, but the "southern" fraternity systems are no more or less dominating of their campuses than the fraternity systems at: Missouri, Texas, Texas Tech, Kansas, Kansas State, Nebraska, Indiana, Illinois, Oklahaom, Oklahoma State, Cornell, Penn State, Southern California, Arizona...
In fact, I'd say the fraternity system at U-Arizona is probably stronger all-around than any in the south except Alabama (which has no peer in my opinion), Auburn and possibly Ole Miss. Even then, it's close and arguable.
The Betas at Oklahoma have 150 members plus 50 pledges and live in a house more majestic and awe-inspiring than any - any- in the south. You'd have a hard tme saying they are not "elite".
I love the south and I'm a fan of SEC fraternities, but the SEC fraternity systems are not superior to great fraternity systems in other parts of the country.

As far as your comment that "Top Tier means elite" and that "five out of 20 are not elite"...I respectfully disagree. The top 20% of any large system will tend to be elite. The top men tend to be drawn to the top fraternities. Claiming to be "selective" is something anyone can do. Being selective is only a virtue if you get selected back by the top rushees. On a big campus with a lot of rushees and a large number of fraternities, there are enough "elite" types to populate pledge classes for all the Tier I fraternities.
And, with respect, the truely bottom Tier III is always small, becasue bad fraternities tend to go out of business. The worst ones will fail and drop out of the system.
You may be exactly right about two levels in Tier II, but most people don't make the distinction among those in the middle.

Again, this discussion of your points comes back to how YOU define a superior fraternity system. If it depends to you on how many guys wear pastel shirts, then we'll have to agree to disagree about fraternities and their relative strengths. I respect your enthuiasm for fraternities and I have no doubt you are a stalwart and generous supporter of your chapter.

Phi Gam and SAE are the two top tier houses at OU. Then comes Beta, Lambda Chi, Delt and Sig Ep. All the other houses need not be mentioned.

The Beta house at OU looks like a silly castle and looks ridiculously out of place. The inside isn't as nice as what you think either......I've been in it.

[gtdxeric]

Originally Posted by Firehouse

Claiming to be "selective" is something anyone can do. Being selective is only a virtue if you get selected back by the top rushees.

One way to measure "tiers" on a campus is through rush wins - if KA and SAE both gave nine rushees bids, how many went where?

Another way that's not quite as reliable but easier to figure is bidding average - how many men who were given bids to a house accepted them. If a house gives forty bids to get a seven man rush class, (or eighty bids to get a 15 man class) it speaks for itself.

None of this works if you have large amounts of voluntary depledging.

[ree-Xi]

Originally Posted by Firehouse

since 2001, three of the top five fraternities have been kicked off campus.

Sorry, but this sentence made me giggle.

[Firehouse]

Originally Posted by ree-Xi

Sorry, but this sentence made me giggle.

No irony here (three of the top five were kicked off) and no hidden message.
All three (SAE, ATO, SigEp) were booted for hazing, and in each case it was a mother who blew the whistle. One huge difference about this generation is that they share everything with their parents, including the details of their hazing. These were magnificent chapters, each in the 120-150 man range. Their loss disrupted the dynamic of the TopTier. Now, the system is stable again after other fraternities grew and took their place.