Harder for older students to join?

[ealymc]

I have heard lots of questions here regarding age of the PNMs and it being held against someone for being a sophomore while rushing. This concept is unheard for me and I don't exactly understand the reasoning or logic behind it.

One of the things that we kind encourage our guys to do regarding rush is to broaden our focus on the guys that we consider. Not just freshmen, but there are a tons of guys with unlimited potential that are older (be it sophomore, junior or whatever), already settled into college and know what's going on, able to juggle both school and fraternity, and may already be a proven campus leader in some cases. Those, personally, were my favorite ones to rush, I guess partially because you want to know that the fraternity is in good hands when you leave.

So, I guess my question is - why would someone be at a disadvantage at your campus because they aren't a freshman?

[KSUViolet06]

One of the main advantages I've heard for pledging a freshman over an upperclassman is theoretically, the chapter gets 4 years of dues and participation as opposed to 2 or 3. That of course is assuming that the PNM stays active all 4 years of college.

[AlphaFrog]

When you're talking SEC, many of the chapters go in to rush above total, and so getting quota is their only opportunity to increase their numbers. If they take a sophomore, that person is going to be gone in 3 years instead of 4, and due to being over total, they wouldn't be able to replace that person.

Let's see if I can put together a simple example.

Total = 10
Quota = 5
XYZ is at 15
That means, going into recruitment, they can take 5 more, putting them at 20.

Next year, total is still 10, quota is still 5, they're at 15 due to graduating 5 srs. They take 5 and are now at 20 again.

This pattern repeats, only that first year, they took a sophomore, who graduated in 3 years. That means that they had 6 graduate, and quota is only 5. They're still above total, so 5 is all they can take, so they end up with only 19 this year.

Now, multiply the above scenario by 20 and you've got the situation at many SEC schools.


ETA: Theoretically, if you have enough groups over total (and therefore not willing to take sophs for the purpose of staying over total), you should be looking into raising total...but I get the distinct impression that it would be easier to get an edict from God than change total at some of these schools.

[ealymc]

Quotas are something else foreign to fraternity life at my school. Every semester I was at UCA, there was at least one sorority didn't take either a fall or spring pledge class because of quota, but the fraternities are just out there gettin' the guys... as many as you can every semester, it seems. I guess that's why it didn't make sense to me. What is the purpose of quota anyway? To keep the playing field as even as possible, I suppose?

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by ealymc

What is the purpose of quota anyway? To keep the playing field as even as possible, I suppose?

Yep. Quota = number of girls rushing/number of chapters. So, technically, if there are 100 rushees, and 10 chapters, each chapter should get 10. But, due to PNM preference, etc, it generally doesn't happen that way.

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by ealymc

Quotas are something else foreign to fraternity life at my school. Every semester I was at UCA, there was at least one sorority didn't take either a fall or spring pledge class because of quota, but the fraternities are just out there gettin' the guys... as many as you can every semester, it seems. I guess that's why it didn't make sense to me. What is the purpose of quota anyway? To keep the playing field as even as possible, I suppose?

I wasn't able to find an answer. Can someone please enlighten me with what the purpose of a quota might be?

As a capitalist, I always saw it as those that were more desirable, for whatever reason based on campus, activities, people, national, costs, house, whatever, would be the ones people want to join. They take as many as they want - they may not want all those who are interested.

Those that are less desirable, for whatever reason, or that are more desirable to the individualist, might be smaller, but they will learn what they have to do to be economically feasible, or they go away.

I don't understand what benefit any type of quota system brings to a campus. I hope someone will enlighten me.

[UGAalum94]

It allows more groups to flourish on that campus. It's a cooperative agreement among the members of NPC for the benefit of all groups.

Basically, it seems that you think everything should operate based on free market principles, but the members of the NPC groups have decided that it's better to have multiple healthy groups on campus than it is to have a few very large groups and other struggling groups.

Although you have in other threads expressed your belief that certain groups are in fact better than other groups and I guess I can infer from that that you think that other groups should go under through direct competition with stronger groups, the NPC thinks it best protects the interests of member groups when it balances the competition among groups.

And remember, the NPC doesn't have a monopoly. Campuses are welcome to have locals. If an NPC decided that the Green book rules weren't the way they wanted to go, they could leave, I suppose. There may even be non-NPC affiliated groups for all I know.

(Sometimes I wonder if the IFC system is better myself, but while I obviously have a preference for my own group, I don't have as strong a sense as you apparently do that a girls belonging to one group over another makes that much a difference in her Greek experience. Even if she can't be XYZ, there's still a benefit in being QRS in my mind.)

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

It allows more groups to flourish on that campus. It's a cooperative agreement among the members of NPC for the benefit of all groups.

Basically, it seems that you think everything should operate based on free market principles, but the members of the NPC groups have decided that it's better to have multiple healthy groups on campus than it is to have a few very large groups and other struggling groups.

Although you have in other threads expressed your belief that certain groups are in fact better than other groups and I guess I can infer from that that you think that other groups should go under through direct competition with stronger groups, the NPC thinks it best protects the interests of member groups when it balances the competition among groups.

And remember, the NPC doesn't have a monopoly. Campuses are welcome to have locals. If an NPC decided that the Green book rules weren't the way they wanted to go, they could leave, I suppose. There may even be non-NPC affiliated groups for all I know.

(Sometimes I wonder if the IFC system is better myself, but while I obviously have a preference for my own group, I don't have as strong a sense as you apparently do that a girls belonging to one group over another makes that much a difference in her Greek experience. Even if she can't be XYZ, there's still a benefit in being QRS in my mind.)

Before I shut up and color, as many seem to want me to do, let me say that I don't believe one group is better than another. I believe one group one any one campus may be the best for each individual, and that an individual should be given the time to get to know that, and to choose.

I'm not willing to let others make those choices for me without my voice being heard, but apparently that's not appropriate in these forums. Here it seems to be go along with the group. Sorry, that's not for me.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DGTess

Before I shut up and color, as many seem to want me to do, let me say that I don't believe one group is better than another. I believe one group one any one campus may be the best for each individual, and that an individual should be given the time to get to know that, and to choose.

I'm not willing to let others make those choices for me without my voice being heard, but apparently that's not appropriate in these forums. Here it seems to be go along with the group. Sorry, that's not for me.

Often on smaller campuses, they do have that. It's called continuous open bidding. We had instances where girls came to open bid parties for a year before they joined because they just weren't ready.

But if you have hundreds of girls going through rush at the same time, you don't have that luxury. It's my belief that at campuses where all the chapters are very large, they probably are more alike than different.

Oh, and please tell me what "shut up and color" means, because I don't have a clue.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by DGTess

Before I shut up and color, as many seem to want me to do, let me say that I don't believe one group is better than another. I believe one group one any one campus may be the best for each individual, and that an individual should be given the time to get to know that, and to choose.

I'm not willing to let others make those choices for me without my voice being heard, but apparently that's not appropriate in these forums. Here it seems to be go along with the group. Sorry, that's not for me.

I'm certainly not trying to stifle your opinion. I was trying to give what I thought was the logic behind the ideas of quota and campus total.

Fraternities, for the most part, don't seem to use a similar system, and as I said, something I wonder if their way is better.

But I think it's true that the NPC has decided that the interests of all groups are best protected by regulating the number of new members that groups can take in and I think that in terms of what system will produce a great number of healthy groups, and therefore the best Greek experience for the most women, I think they might be right.

I was an undergraduate member at a big school with more than 1000 girls rushing each year and 18 groups, so it's harder for me to accept the idea that there's one best group for each girl, other than the group she ends up with when rush is over. At a smaller campus with deferred rush, I'm sure things are different and the groups may have distinctly different personalities and character.

Even with the "false" constraints of quota and total, I think the regulated system probably "works" better overall than groups having to set their own limits bases on when the experience of being a member seems to decline because the group is way too big.

But it's perfectly fine that you disagree.

I'm not sure what you mean by having your choices made for you, though. Even in the quota and total system, girls decide whether they want to join the group that wants them and they get to rank groups. It's just that their choices get narrowed down when groups decide that they don't want to ask them back.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by DGTess

I don't understand what benefit any type of quota system brings to a campus. I hope someone will enlighten me.

Quota keeps the sororities more equal. If all sororities could take everyone they wanted to who was interested, it would quickly cause a very uneven balance. The "less desirable" groups start to die off. Those who have seen it happen, know that when the weakest link finally breaks, it leaves a new weakest link, and the cycle starts over. Eventually, even the "desirable" groups start to decline, as there are less total Greeks to do PR. It's better to keep a quota system, and keep things semi-equal. Otherwise you would end up with a dynamic Greek system, which is not to the benefit of the campus. Better to keep however many sororities it takes to fill the campus, and not have groups constantly coming and going.

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

Quota keeps the sororities more equal. If all sororities could take everyone they wanted to who was interested, it would quickly cause a very uneven balance. The "less desirable" groups start to die off. Those who have seen it happen, know that when the weakest link finally breaks, it leaves a new weakest link, and the cycle starts over. Eventually, even the "desirable" groups start to decline, as there are less total Greeks to do PR. It's better to keep a quota system, and keep things semi-equal. Otherwise you would end up with a dynamic Greek system, which is not to the benefit of the campus. Better to keep however many sororities it takes to fill the campus, and not have groups constantly coming and going.

I guess I just don't understand the concept of wanting to keep things equal artificially. Apparently, I'm the only greek on the planet who doesn't get it, though.

Not everyone would be interested in the larger houses, all else being equal, and not everyone interested in the larger houses would necessarily be pledged, right?

Oh, well...enough people on these forums have told me to shut up and color. I guess I'll do so.

[ToriForte]

When I was at TU, that didn't seem to be a problem at all. We even had Juniors for new members.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by ToriForte

When I was at TU, that didn't seem to be a problem at all. We even had Juniors for new members.

No, I would say upperclassmen receiving a bid isn't a huge problem at a good 60-70% of schools. But, the ones that ARE hard to get a bid for an upperclassmen comprise a HUGE amount of many NPCs. I would venture to guess there are a few sororities whose SEC numbers alone top that of some of the smaller NPCs total national numbers.

[Tom Earp]

It will of course depend on the size of school, the % of Greeks on campus and has nothing to do with the SEC other than they are all Old South Schools where Greek life is very strong from the good old days where legacies are a prime consideration especially in Sororities. They have enough people who want to join and have families from the GLOs. There fore, the limitations are just that.

If some of the other non snob schools look at the individual, they look at the person, not really the age unless they are seniors.

OP is correct, the idea is to get and keep a member as long as possible to grow through the ranks and help the chapters out over a period of time.