Concerns for Boyfriend going through Recruitment

[YesNoMaybe]

Hey everyone my boyfriend is trasferring to Alabama next year and some of his friends told him to go through recruitment, and now he really wants to. However, he truly wants brotherhood and is super concerned about joining a chapter that hazes hard core. His best friend at Mizzou almost left the school after getting tortured so much during his new member process, and I just was wondering how one either a) Brings up the topic of being hazed during recruitment or b) finds out. He asked the guys at Alabama if they haze and all they said is 'they can't talk about that" sooo idk what that means, but, any advice?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by YesNoMaybe

Hey everyone my boyfriend is trasferring to Alabama next year and some of his friends told him to go through recruitment, and now he really wants to. However, he truly wants brotherhood and is super concerned about joining a chapter that hazes hard core. His best friend at Mizzou almost left the school after getting tortured so much during his new member process, and I just was wondering how one either a) Brings up the topic of being hazed during recruitment or b) finds out. He asked the guys at Alabama if they haze and all they said is 'they can't talk about that" sooo idk what that means, but, any advice?

First off, thank you for joining Greekchat. We are an awesome online community. We welcome you and I love your username.

I recommend letting your boyfriend handle this on his own every step of the way. If you really want to offer him some advice tell him to be well aware of the Greek lettered organization's policies against hazing, as well as the university's policies. Tell him to take these policies very seriously.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

First off, thank you for joining Greekchat. We are an awesome online community. We welcome you and I love your username.

I recommend letting your boyfriend handle this on his own every step of the way. If you really want to offer him some advice tell him to be well aware of the Greek lettered organization's policies against hazing, as well as the university's policies. Tell him to take these policies very seriously.

[dnall]

I get that you don't want him to get hazed, but I wasn't clear if you were saying he does or doesn't want it.

Anyway, it is not a topic of conversation in recruitment. Hazing is illegal and shouldn't happen, but it does. Most of it no big deal. Very little of it is out of control, but that does happen too.

I'm not saying it should be this way, but a guy that kept asking about hazing during rush would be seen as a bit of a wuss by my chapter. We went from hazing to not hazing when I was an active, but pledgeship was still no joke. It was a thousand percent all consuming commitment either way. The guy that's overly concerned with doing some pushups is the same guy that drops when he's busy as hell getting called every other night to DD.

I would say... I understand this is your bf & you're very concerned for him, but you have to let him do some things on his own. Just let him figure this out for himself.

If anything, tell him hazing doesn't necessarily lead to strong brotherhood. Stuff that's humiliating and stupid detracts from it. A constructive crucible-type experience, regardless if it's physical/mental or if it's a lot of very hard work with no spare time, all done side-by-side with pledge brothers does bring you closer together. You will never be able to tell that from the outside, even if you know in advance how hard an org hazes or if they don't at all.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by dnall

I'm not saying it should be this way, but a guy that kept asking about hazing during rush would be seen as a bit of a wuss by my chapter. We went from hazing to not hazing when I was an active, but pledgeship was still no joke. It was a thousand percent all consuming commitment either way. The guy that's overly concerned with doing some pushups is the same guy that drops when he's busy as hell getting called every other night to DD.

So what you're saying is, you were still hazing?

[YesNoMaybe]

Originally Posted by dnall

I get that you don't want him to get hazed, but I wasn't clear if you were saying he does or doesn't want it.

Anyway, it is not a topic of conversation in recruitment. Hazing is illegal and shouldn't happen, but it does. Most of it no big deal. Very little of it is out of control, but that does happen too.

I'm not saying it should be this way, but a guy that kept asking about hazing during rush would be seen as a bit of a wuss by my chapter. We went from hazing to not hazing when I was an active, but pledgeship was still no joke. It was a thousand percent all consuming commitment either way. The guy that's overly concerned with doing some pushups is the same guy that drops when he's busy as hell getting called every other night to DD.

I would say... I understand this is your bf & you're very concerned for him, but you have to let him do some things on his own. Just let him figure this out for himself.

If anything, tell him hazing doesn't necessarily lead to strong brotherhood. Stuff that's humiliating and stupid detracts from it. A constructive crucible-type experience, regardless if it's physical/mental or if it's a lot of very hard work with no spare time, all done side-by-side with pledge brothers does bring you closer together. You will never be able to tell that from the outside, even if you know in advance how hard an org hazes or if they don't at all.

I meant that he doesn't want to be hazed, either, I mean I just want him to be do what he wants without disrespecting himself, and that's his opinion of what that is. I don't feel he would be overly upset with minor hazing - like having a pledge nickname thats embarrassing or wearing dorky outfits to socials - but some of the stories he was told by his Mizzou friend were concerning. I don't want him to be dehumanized, which sounds overdramatic, but his friend got pee'd on for example for messing up the creed. I just didn't know if there was a way for him to figure out which chapters do consider hazing "earning it" and which don't so badly without him coming across, like you said, a wuss. I think he is open to local chapters (different than IFC??) and NPHC if it isn't like weird that he isn't racially affiliated with what they historically stand for.

*sigh* Perhaps he will have to just go with his gut because I suppose it's anti-masculine to sound off concerns, and I suppose they would lie anyway.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by YesNoMaybe

*sigh* Perhaps he will have to just go with his gut because I suppose it's anti-masculine to sound off concerns, and I suppose they would lie anyway.

You didn't need us after all.

[dnall]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

So what you're saying is, you were still hazing?

Hard work isn't hazing. The program I referred to was award winning & endorsed by both the university and nationals. It was very hard though, harder in many ways than hazing had been, but legal.

When my gf pledged her sorority she had: 1x 2hr chapter mtg, 1x1hr pledge meeting (about social & don't post stupid pics), and 4x random study hours per week. They did one 12hr sisterhood retreat that consisted of busing out to this place while everyone slept, 2hrs of ice breakers, 2hrs of sitting around, & bus back. Then she got initiated. She didn't know what it was about, or even all her pledge sister's names.

Most people would say that's a fairly unsuccessful member ed process. They could have initiated her on bid day, or not even bothered cause it didn't mean anything anyway.

I don't advocate hazing. It is the most effective training tool I know when done correctly and constructively (versus moronically - like pissing on people - gross). But, anything you leave 18-22yo kids in charge of with little supervision is going to eventually get out of control. And, it is illegal. The consequences of getting caught or something catastrophic happening are not worth the gain. There are other methods to run an equally hard and more constructive training program without breaking the law. They just require exponentially more work on the part of the chapter.

For the OP, I know it's frustrating, but a lot of this is unknowable going in the door.

Asking about is fine. Everyone has a standard answer regardless if they haze or not. It doesn't necessarily appear unmanly or would a fraternity even care about that. It's when you keep asking about it or make a big deal out of it that it becomes an issue.

When I give a bid, I'm looking for someone to charge the gates of hell with me no matter the costs (I know, overly dramatic). I'm looking for a guy that doesn't care if he's going to be hazed or not hazed, and ready to overcome whatever challenge emerges to be part of my fraternity.

If he's whining about hazing, I'd feel like he's saying "I'm that committed to your org, unless it gets hard & then I'm gone." Even if I know we don't haze, I'd still think he's the guy that's going to bail when pledgeship isn't all glitter & unicorns (joke w/ my gf, sorry, but you get the point). I'm going to worry that even if he makes it through pledgeship, he'd be the active that wouldn't be there for you or wouldn't live up to his responsibilities cause his heart's really not in it.

If we did haze, it'd be worse on him cause people would want to test him to alleviate those concerns.

NPHC or a local isn't an escape either. There's hazing there too. It's against the rules and the law everywhere and no one is truly immune to it.

Just like you would tell a girl going through sorority rush, he needs to just focus on the groups he sees and find the one that is the best fit for him & that feels the same way about him. Everything else will take care of itself.

[TonyB06]

Originally Posted by YesNoMaybe

Hey everyone my boyfriend is trasferring to Alabama next year and some of his friends told him to go through recruitment, and now he really wants to. However, he truly wants brotherhood and is super concerned about joining a chapter that hazes hard core. His best friend at Mizzou almost left the school after getting tortured so much during his new member process, and I just was wondering how one either a) Brings up the topic of being hazed during recruitment or b) finds out. He asked the guys at Alabama if they haze and all they said is 'they can't talk about that" sooo idk what that means, but, any advice?

Whatever your bf goes through, he'll have to handle it if he wants it bad enough. Even if he chooses to endure something degrading, he's not likely to want you to know it. If you prod on the suspicion he's getting hazed, you may be adding to what he's going through.

As has been suggested by others, just be supportive from a distance. You can't carry his weight on this.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by dnall

But, anything you leave 18-22yo kids in charge of with little supervision is going to eventually get out of control.

Can things get out of control? Yes. Do they, no matter what? No.

When I give a bid… I'm looking for a guy that doesn't care if he's going to be hazed or not hazed, and ready to overcome whatever challenge emerges to be part of my fraternity.

So, you want guys in your fraternity who are willing to get hazed…

If he's whining about hazing, I'd feel like he's saying "I'm that committed to your org, unless it gets hard & then I'm gone." Even if I know we don't haze, I'd still think he's the guy that's going to bail when pledgeship isn't all glitter & unicorns (joke w/ my gf, sorry, but you get the point). I'm going to worry that even if he makes it through pledgeship, he'd be the active that wouldn't be there for you or wouldn't live up to his responsibilities cause his heart's really not in it.

… and if they’re not willing to get hazed, they won’t be committed to your organization? Well then I guess all that commitment that I had for my organization was just one big lie. Someone needs to piss on me.. quick!

For the OP, I know it's frustrating, but a lot of this is unknowable going in the door.

A lot of it is unknowable. You said it. Therefore, a guy who’s afraid he might have to do things to a goat (that I won’t mention here) – and yes, these crazy things are concerns for some potential members – is someone who also won’t want to take on leadership positions, help the chapter to grow, and stand by his brothers when things get tough? O..k…

[crusse10]

This hasn't been brought up yet, but how old is he? If he's transferring too late, they may not even give him a bid regardless. You may secretly get your wish of him not getting hazed by nobody offering him a bid based solely on his hours completed.

[AZTheta]

Originally Posted by dnall

When my gf pledged her sorority she had: 1x 2hr chapter mtg, 1x1hr pledge meeting (about social & don't post stupid pics), and 4x random study hours per week. They did one 12hr sisterhood retreat that consisted of busing out to this place while everyone slept, 2hrs of ice breakers, 2hrs of sitting around, & bus back. Then she got initiated. She didn't know what it was about, or even all her pledge sister's names.

dnall, for the love of Mike, please stop typing misinformation about sororities. You have no idea whatsoever what a member education program consists of, and you're passing off hearsay. You don't know what is covered, you don't know anything about new member education. It's far more than "social & don't post stupid pics". And that's all I care to say about it.

Have you seen the manual for new members? Have you participated in the process? No, you haven't. Nor should you (see the manual or know anything else other than cursory superficial information, which btw it appears that you have and have written about it, above). But I have. And I can state this with impunity: your "gf" told you something, you heard something else, and the truth is in yet a third location.

Stick to your own damned lane. You are constantly muddying the waters with your sorority misstatements which you attempt to pass off as factual.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by AzTheta

dnall, for the love of Mike, please stop typing misinformation about sororities. You have no idea whatsoever what a member education program consists of, and you're passing off hearsay. You don't know what is covered, you don't know anything about new member education. It's far more than "social & don't post stupid pics". And that's all I care to say about it.

Have you seen the manual for new members? Have you participated in the process? No, you haven't. Nor should you (see the manual or know anything else other than cursory superficial information, which btw it appears that you have and have written about it, above). But I have. And I can state this with impunity: your "gf" told you something, you heard something else, and the truth is in yet a third location.

Stick to your own damned lane. You are constantly muddying the waters with your sorority misstatements which you attempt to pass off as factual.

Thank you, Maria. I was about to jump on this myself. He knows nothing of sorority NM processes. Just because we don't consume 100% of our NMs time does not mean that we don't have successful and meaningful NM processes. It also is probably why we have women with outstanding academic records!

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Thank you, Maria. I was about to jump on this myself. He knows nothing of sorority NM processes. Just because we don't consume 100% of our NMs time does not mean that we don't have successful and meaningful NM processes.

Women on GC - particularly of a certain generation - have complained about the length and depth of the NM program since the inception of GC.

[AZTheta]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

Women on GC - particularly of a certain generation - have complained about the length and depth of the NM program since the inception of GC.

I'm in that certain generation, Sen. My pledging period was close to six months. I knew what I needed to know, backwards and forwards.

Having seen and read the New Member Education manual for my fraternity, I will attest to the comprehensive nature of the materials. Having sat in on NME meetings, as have other advisors, I know that talking about "social and photos" (paraphrase) is NOT the only topic. Far from it.

As for the NPC decision to shorten the NME period, that's way out of my scope of influence, and there are reasons that the NME period was shortened. That's been discussed ad infinitum. I gave up complaining, instead I'm focused on broadening the education process to the entire chapter. We do a little segment each week in chapter; we have sisterhood firesides where we talk about our history and ritual. It has made a difference, based on what I'm hearing and seeing in the chapter.

I can speak about what I know as it pertains to my fraternity.