too broke to bury their dead

[DaemonSeid]

DETROIT (CNNMoney.com) -- At 1300 E. Warren St., you can smell the plight of Detroit.

Inside the Wayne County morgue in midtown Detroit, 67 bodies are piled up, unclaimed, in the freezing temperatures. Neither the families nor the county can afford to bury the corpses. So they stack up inside the freezer.

Albert Samuels, chief investigator for the morgue, said he has never seen anything like it during his 13 years on the job. "Some people don't come forward even though they know the people are here," said the former Detroit cop. "They don't have the money."

Lifelong Detroit residents Darrell and Cheryl Vickers understand this firsthand. On a chilly September morning they had to visit the freezer to identify the body of Darrell's aunt, Nancy Graham -- and say their goodbyes.

The couple, already financially strained, don't have the $695 needed to cremate her. Other family members, mostly in Florida, don't have the means to contribute, either. In fact, when Darrell's grandmother passed recently, his father paid for the cremation on a credit card -- at 21% interest.

So the Vickers had to leave their aunt behind. Body number 67.

"It's devastating to a family not to be able to take care of their own," said Darrell. "But there's really no way to come up with that kind of cash in today's society. There's just no way."


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[Kevin]

This is nothing special really. Folks all over the place don't have the cash to pay for their relatives' cremations. Detroit's not special in that regard.

The city pretty much collapsed under its own weight, putting all its eggs in one basket, lead by greedy unions, manufacturers who made crappy cars and corrupt politicians.

This'd be a losing formula anywhere and the city is getting what it deserves. Meanwhile, the South, which is largely anti-union is doing just fine. While UAW plants in Michigan keep closing, new ones are taking their place all over the South.

Michigan can either make the decision to get competitive or it continue to be left behind.

[AGDee]

I was going to post something here, talk a little bit about some other stuff going on here right now and then I read Kevin's post and, well.. I just can't even respond to that. Clearly this topic is much too personal to me.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I was going to post something here, talk a little bit about some other stuff going on here right now and then I read Kevin's post and, well.. I just can't even respond to that. Clearly this topic is much too personal to me.

If you remove the word "deserves" and replace it with something along the lines of "the city is feeling the impact of these decisions now", what exactly do you disagree with?

It's not like this just happened to Detroit - it wasn't happenstance or bad luck or whatever. The overwhelming majority of this happened by design, which sucks for the people at the bottom rung, because they are paying for the bad decisions of those at the top, but Detroit (both in the sense of the city, and as representative of American auto manufacturers) made some pretty poor decisions in hindsight. Indeed, disastrous decisions - and I'm not sure this is Monday morning quarterbacking, because the rationale given at the time was specious at best, and wishcasting at worst.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

If you remove the word "deserves" and replace it with something along the lines of "the city is feeling the impact of these decisions now", what exactly do you disagree with?

It's not like this just happened to Detroit - it wasn't happenstance or bad luck or whatever. The overwhelming majority of this happened by design, which sucks for the people at the bottom rung, because they are paying for the bad decisions of those at the top, but Detroit (both in the sense of the city, and as representative of American auto manufacturers) made some pretty poor decisions in hindsight. Indeed, disastrous decisions - and I'm not sure this is Monday morning quarterbacking, because the rationale given at the time was specious at best, and wishcasting at worst.

For once can you leave politics and crap out of this? Do you have the ability to look at ANYTHING form just a plain humanistic point of view?

Sonia Sotomayor was right...

[rhoyaltempest]

When I read this post, my human-ness leaped out. How awful it must be to not be able to bury a loved one...no matter what city, town, county, state, or country you live in.

I wasn't thinking about all this other stuff people are bringing up about the current state of Detroit. Wow. Just Wow.

But then, I'm a Humanist.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

For once can you leave politics and crap out of this? Do you have the ability to look at ANYTHING form just a plain humanistic point of view?

Sonia Sotomayor was right...

Are you kidding? Nothing I said was political in the slightest - I don't even know how you can construe that as a political post.

Indeed, I did address the "humanistic" part - I really do feel for the people of Detroit, as I noted when I said (paraphrase) that it sucks for the worker bees to pay for the shitty reasoning and greedy short-sightedness of the queen bees running Detroit. And it does suck - PM_Mama's post is a great example of the laws of unintended consequences, and how the disastrous moves of a few can affect the many.

But that doesn't change the fact that Detroit didn't just happen - this isn't the dinosaurs disappearing in a giant fireball with little or no evidence of why. We know why. It's plain as day - and it's not political, it's economic, it's intellectual, it's even humanistic. But pardon me for looking at this pragmatically: Detroit got fucked because the Big Auto manufacturers built a house of cards. Everyone living in Detroit is dealing with the fallout, which sucks, but it doesn't mean Kevin is explicitly wrong, even if you think he's being an asshole. Both can be true, in fact.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

If you remove the word "deserves" and replace it with something along the lines of "the city is feeling the impact of these decisions now", what exactly do you disagree with?

It's not like this just happened to Detroit - it wasn't happenstance or bad luck or whatever. The overwhelming majority of this happened by design, which sucks for the people at the bottom rung, because they are paying for the bad decisions of those at the top, but Detroit (both in the sense of the city, and as representative of American auto manufacturers) made some pretty poor decisions in hindsight. Indeed, disastrous decisions - and I'm not sure this is Monday morning quarterbacking, because the rationale given at the time was specious at best, and wishcasting at worst.

Yes, it's the word "deserve" that I find offensive. However, I have to remind myself of the source. This is the same guy who has posted on this board that the homeless should just be allowed to die because they didn't do more to help themselves. I have a compassion for humanity in general and don't think that anybody "deserves" something that they weren't directly responsible for. A serial killer may "deserve" life imprisonment. Someone who works their whole lives at an honest living after working hard to educate themselves doesn't "deserve" financial devastation. I will not argue that Michigan put all it's eggs in one basket but for a very long time, that basket supported millions of people in many states across many industries in this country. The health care system nationwide is on the verge of a crash not dissimilar to the auto industry and people are fighting a proactive tooth and nail. The banking system crashed and it was saved. Money talks, that's the bottom line.

It would be a wonderful world if we could all grow up with silver spoons in our mouths. Kevin doesn't seem to understand that in a capitalistic society, all class levels and job levels have to be present. We can't all be CEOs. We can't all be so wealthy that money will never be a problem. We can get Master's degrees and pour money into a retirement fund, save funds, be responsible and still end up without a job, on the verge of losing your home because you were born and raised, and chose to stay, in a particular geographic area.

Michigan is not alone in putting all of it's eggs in one basket. Many states utilize the resources that they have available. I don't disagree that the UAW was greedy, but, in their greed, they supported hundreds of thousands of other people in other industries: restaurants, theaters, boats, sporting goods, etc. If our society was able to completely eliminate the need for oil, where would Texas be? Why is there such resistance to moving to alternative fuel sources? Because people in that industry fight it.

For many of the people who live and work in the Detroit metro area, it most certainly is happenstance and bad luck. Many are, in fact, victims of circumstances over which they had no control and no warning. People who would happily relocate but can't because they can't sell their houses and if they walk away from their current home, their credit report will be so destroyed that they can't find a new place to live. Kevin tends to be closed minded to the fact that there are not as many jobs as there are people, let alone jobs that allow you to live a comfortable lifestyle. However, we still need people working those jobs. We are dependent on the waitresses, nurses aids, child care workers, etc. Where would any of us be without them?

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Yes, it's the word "deserve" that I find offensive. However, I have to remind myself of the source. This is the same guy who has posted on this board that the homeless should just be allowed to die because they didn't do more to help themselves. I have a compassion for humanity in general and don't think that anybody "deserves" something that they weren't directly responsible for. A serial killer may "deserve" life imprisonment. Someone who works their whole lives at an honest living after working hard to educate themselves doesn't "deserve" financial devastation. I will not argue that Michigan put all it's eggs in one basket but for a very long time, that basket supported millions of people in many states across many industries in this country. The health care system nationwide is on the verge of a crash not dissimilar to the auto industry and people are fighting a proactive tooth and nail. The banking system crashed and it was saved. Money talks, that's the bottom line.

It would be a wonderful world if we could all grow up with silver spoons in our mouths. Kevin doesn't seem to understand that in a capitalistic society, all class levels and job levels have to be present. We can't all be CEOs. We can't all be so wealthy that money will never be a problem. We can get Master's degrees and pour money into a retirement fund, save funds, be responsible and still end up without a job, on the verge of losing your home because you were born and raised, and chose to stay, in a particular geographic area.

Michigan is not alone in putting all of it's eggs in one basket. Many states utilize the resources that they have available. I don't disagree that the UAW was greedy, but, in their greed, they supported hundreds of thousands of other people in other industries: restaurants, theaters, boats, sporting goods, etc. If our society was able to completely eliminate the need for oil, where would Texas be? Why is there such resistance to moving to alternative fuel sources? Because people in that industry fight it.

For many of the people who live and work in the Detroit metro area, it most certainly is happenstance and bad luck. Many are, in fact, victims of circumstances over which they had no control and no warning. People who would happily relocate but can't because they can't sell their houses and if they walk away from their current home, their credit report will be so destroyed that they can't find a new place to live. Kevin tends to be closed minded to the fact that there are not as many jobs as there are people, let alone jobs that allow you to live a comfortable lifestyle. However, we still need people working those jobs. We are dependent on the waitresses, nurses aids, child care workers, etc. Where would any of us be without them?

stands up and applauds.

One can't understand struggle if one never had to.

This post FTW.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Yes, it's the word "deserve" that I find offensive. However, I have to remind myself of the source. This is the same guy who has posted on this board that the homeless should just be allowed to die because they didn't do more to help themselves.

WHAT??!!!

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

I agree. Kevin's comment is disgusting. I hope he and his family NEVER have to go through what we are going through. Whether you are still wealthy or have lost a great deal of money because of this, we're all in this together.....I's people like you guys who make people like me feel worthless. Like it's our fault that Detroit is crashing down around us and there's nothing we can do about it. My heart aches for those people who can't afford to bury their loved one. We buried my uncle in January and I watched my parents, aunts and uncles struggle to find money to do it. It is SO expensive but it's something that must be done.

Originally Posted by AGDee

Yes, it's the word "deserve" that I find offensive. However, I have to remind myself of the source. This is the same guy who has posted on this board that the homeless should just be allowed to die because they didn't do more to help themselves. I have a compassion for humanity in general and don't think that anybody "deserves" something that they weren't directly responsible for. .......We are dependent on the waitresses, nurses aids, child care workers, etc. Where would any of us be without them?

A couple of things on this:

1) PM_Mama - I never said it was just unions. What I was saying is that it's a deeply personal situation for people in Detroit, because of the overwhelming presence of the automotive industry there.

2) To reiterate Belle's point, saying that the government and business leaders of Detroit failed does not equal saying that the people of Detroit deserved this. I feel terrible for the people who are out of work, and for the citizens of Detroit (and around the country) who have become victims of bad political and business decisions.

Finally (to both of you and deepimpact2), on a personal note, I'd caution any of you about making assumptions about the people posting. Not all of us grew up with silver spoons, or even with middle-class backgrounds. I grew up in a household where money was a HUGE problem, where tough choices had to be made every day, where I did not have health insurance as a child, and where I had to work two jobs through high school and during college to help ensure that I could pay for a college education, living expenses, etc. (and so that I could help contribute to the household living expenses to supplement what my parents could scrap together). I know what it's like to live in a household where each day is a struggle.

I am very sorry that you and the other residents of Michigan are going through all of this. But, let's not play the assumptions game here.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by AGDee

For many of the people who live and work in the Detroit metro area, it most certainly is happenstance and bad luck. Many are, in fact, victims of circumstances over which they had no control and no warning. People who would happily relocate but can't because they can't sell their houses and if they walk away from their current home, their credit report will be so destroyed that they can't find a new place to live. Kevin tends to be closed minded to the fact that there are not as many jobs as there are people, let alone jobs that allow you to live a comfortable lifestyle. However, we still need people working those jobs. We are dependent on the waitresses, nurses aids, child care workers, etc. Where would any of us be without them?

There's a reason there aren't as many jobs as there are people.

It's the fault of the unions and the government (both federal and the state level). Capitalism works, if you let it. But so few let it and continue to accept intervention such as the inherently racist minimum wage policy. The Unions setwage floors to keep people out, not include them and help them out. The Unions did this to keep out black people in apartheid South Africa.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Michigan is not alone in putting all of it's eggs in one basket. Many states utilize the resources that they have available. I don't disagree that the UAW was greedy, but, in their greed, they supported hundreds of thousands of other people in other industries: restaurants, theaters, boats, sporting goods, etc. If our society was able to completely eliminate the need for oil, where would Texas be? Why is there such resistance to moving to alternative fuel sources? Because people in that industry fight it.

Texas is a bad example. They have what is probably the most diversified economy in the country. Honestly, if the oil just dried up (which won't happen), Texas has enough other things going on that, while it'd feel an effect, it wouldn't be as bad as you think. We've even diversified in Oklahoma after learning our lesson in the 1980's.

It used to be that the labor unions worked together with the corporations to make sure that both entities could prosper. At some point, that changed. It became a game of the unions extracting as much as humanly possible from their corporate overlords. The result was predictable and yes, deserved. Further, as to Detroit, the city itself has had a long and storied history of corrupt leadership. Who keeps electing them? Who elected Kwame Kilpatrick?

For many of the people who live and work in the Detroit metro area, it most certainly is happenstance and bad luck. Many are, in fact, victims of circumstances over which they had no control and no warning.

No control and no warning? Really? That's kind of what I'm talking about. To say that you couldn't see the collapse of the auto industry after years and years of bleeding and losses is just astounding to me. I don't think I'd be stretching much to say that anyone who has paid attention to Detroit knew it was not a question of "if" Detroit collapsed, but rather "when."

[KSigkid]

I'm starting to think that the Detroit situation is something that just can't be discussed on a board like this.

On one side you have people who don't have a lot of sympathy/empathy for the situation, either because a) they see people and businesses in their own areas that are struggling, or b) they have issues with the way the automotive business was run prior to the collapse.

Then, you have people from the Detroit area who (understandably) are sensitive and a bit defensive about the situation. They have allegiances to the automotive industry, or to the unions, or to some part of the situation.

I'm not saying either side is right or wrong, but I just think it's impossible to have any sort of reasonable conversation about it in this type of forum.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I was going to post something here, talk a little bit about some other stuff going on here right now and then I read Kevin's post and, well.. I just can't even respond to that. Clearly this topic is much too personal to me.

Yeah. I can certainly understand that.