Alumni involvement if son/daughter released

[PJS]

After several years, I happened to check in on the NPC Recruitment and Chapter Listing thread (what happened to irishpipes?) Anyway, I saw a post of mine (PNMs and early cuts) that had been bumped from many years ago. Reading it sent me down memory lane, and (after looking for my old password for 2 days) I thought I would return again to ask a question.

As I layed out in that old post, I had a daughter that was cut from my house during recruitment. Additional information is that I had another daughter who was also cut a couple years later. Both were quality pnms: 4.0 high school students with lengthy resumes. Both went on to successfully pledge another house, be involved members who held higher offices, graduate with bachelors and doctorate degrees and are continuing to live their best lives.

This is not a post about “why weren’t my daughters chosen;” life is way past that. My curiosity is how other moms that have been through that experience end up in terms of their relationship/involvement with their sorority. I mentioned in my original post that I was blindsided when my daughter was cut the second day by my house. Blindsided is absolutely the right word. Devastated might be a little dramatic, but close. I had no idea how much that was going to matter, or how much it would hurt. When it happened a second time to my younger daughter, I was much more prepared, cynical and thick skinned.

I had always loved my sorority, and really hoped I would feel the same about it again someday. That has not happened. It’s kind of like a scar that just doesn’t have any sensation anymore. There was a time that I was an involved alum. Now I’m completely apathetic toward the organization and volunteer neither time nor money. Interestingly, right after my daughters’ college experience, my sorority had a Legacy Project that was supposed to highlight the importance of legacies to the actives. Just a dozen years later Fraternity Council turned tail with the rest of the crowd and expunged legacy status from having any meaning whatsoever. I do wonder what the long term effects of that will be.

My guess is that many parents who have had the same experience are no longer involved as alums in their sorority/fraternity, but maybe I’m wrong. Thoughts?

[Sen's Revenge]

Originally Posted by PJS

After several years, I happened to check in on the NPC Recruitment and Chapter Listing thread (what happened to irishpipes?) Anyway, I saw a post of mine (PNMs and early cuts) that had been bumped from many years ago. Reading it sent me down memory lane, and (after looking for my old password for 2 days) I thought I would return again to ask a question.

As I layed out in that old post, I had a daughter that was cut from my house during recruitment. Additional information is that I had another daughter who was also cut a couple years later. Both were quality pnms: 4.0 high school students with lengthy resumes. Both went on to successfully pledge another house, be involved members who held higher offices, graduate with bachelors and doctorate degrees and are continuing to live their best lives.

This is not a post about “why weren’t my daughters chosen;” life is way past that. My curiosity is how other moms that have been through that experience end up in terms of their relationship/involvement with their sorority. I mentioned in my original post that I was blindsided when my daughter was cut the second day by my house. Blindsided is absolutely the right word. Devastated might be a little dramatic, but close. I had no idea how much that was going to matter, or how much it would hurt. When it happened a second time to my younger daughter, I was much more prepared, cynical and thick skinned.

I had always loved my sorority, and really hoped I would feel the same about it again someday. That has not happened. It’s kind of like a scar that just doesn’t have any sensation anymore. There was a time that I was an involved alum. Now I’m completely apathetic toward the organization and volunteer neither time nor money. Interestingly, right after my daughters’ college experience, my sorority had a Legacy Project that was supposed to highlight the importance of legacies to the actives. Just a dozen years later Fraternity Council turned tail with the rest of the crowd and expunged legacy status from having any meaning whatsoever. I do wonder what the long term effects of that will be.

My guess is that many parents who have had the same experience are no longer involved as alums in their sorority/fraternity, but maybe I’m wrong. Thoughts?

First: I am not in the kind of GLO that you are in, so I cannot speak specifically to an NPC sorority experience. But I feel somewhat moved to respond.

You have the right to feel about your organization how you feel about it at any given moment. There will be times that you are all in and there will be times that you don't care what happens to it. Perhaps you may never care again.

I have some queries for you to ponder. You don't have to answer.

Did your organization ever sell itself as a legacy club or otherwise guarantee that your daughters would have a fair chance, or even a fighting chance? Or is that a belief that you held that really has no origin besides hopes that became your reality? [This has happened to me when joining a fraternal organization.]

Has the organization remained consistent in what its mission or purpose is? I imagine that most haven't changed fundamentally, such as doing good work in the community with friends.

I see and hear various complaints about NPC sorority councils (I presume this is synonymous with Executive Boards). Are these women not elected by the body (national convention)? Are they not democratically accountable to anyone? If your voice is not at the table, is there not a way to make it so? (Alumnae chapter leadership?)

I do not know the voting delegate structure of most NPC organizations, or whether some have more collegiate voice than alumnae voice. (NPHC organizations are overwhelmingly the alumni voice, while APO is primarily a collegiate voice)

All in all, what I'm trying to say is this: It's fine to feel hurt, and then numb. But I also think there is a time to engage and lodge the complaints. Not by withholding dues or donations, or even letters to leadership. (And not by social media quibbles and spats, which a lot of people believe is action.) But to be engaged in the democratic process in-person until THAT process doesn't work anymore.

Good luck to you.

[carnation]

Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge

Did your organization ever sell itself as a legacy club or otherwise guarantee that your daughters would have a fair chance, or even a fighting chance? Or is that a belief that you held that really has no origin besides hopes that became your reality? [This has happened to me when joining a fraternal organization.]

Has the organization remained consistent in what its mission or purpose is? I imagine that most haven't changed fundamentally, such as doing good work in the community with friends.

I see and hear various complaints about NPC sorority councils (I presume this is synonymous with Executive Boards). Are these women not elected by the body (national convention)? Are they not democratically accountable to anyone? If your voice is not at the table, is there not a way to make it so? (Alumnae chapter leadership?)

All in all, what I'm trying to say is this: It's fine to feel hurt, and then numb. But I also think there is a time to engage and lodge the complaints. Not by withholding dues or donations, or even letters to leadership. (And not by social media quibbles and spats, which a lot of people believe is action.) But to be engaged in the democratic process in-person until THAT process doesn't work anymore.

Our organizations used to honor legacies with policies that at least gave our daughters one more shot to be noticed during rush. If they made it all the way through to preferential parties, they were put on the bid list. I don't know if any groups have legacy preferences now.

Our organizations have many legacy songs and some have special pins that legacies can wear. Mothers and sisters can come to initiation.

Many of our organizations have changed. From being a group of like-minded women, they have devolved into political organizations. (Look up the Kappa Kappa Gamma suit at the University of Wyoming.) Because of this, the NPCs have lost incredible amounts of money and some alum clubs have folded in protest. There are many of us who will resign if our groups remove God and Christ from the rituals (some groups are trying).

I have heard of numerous cases in which committees were stacked to get the voting results that various sororities wanted. Major decisions were made at the council level in which members had no say and then the council would express fake surprise at the members' anger. Some sororities are putting on a show of pretending to backtrack and consult the membership but no one believes them anymore.

Though none of my daughters were rejected from my sorority (my group never had a chapter where they rushed), I am definitely down on my group. I have cut off all contributions. I have 5 granddaughters with the oldest now in high school, and I don't care if they rush. Several times a month, I hear something revolting that an NPC group has pulled on their members without consulting them and who wants people they love to be subjectd to that?

[carnation]

Also, to PJS: I do know of many women who feel as you do. Their daughters were cut from their sororities and on Bid Day, they walked over to their daughters' sorority houses and became involved volunteers there. They were never involved in their own sororities again. Some ceased all donations and others resigned.

One woman I know had 2 daughters who pledged her sorority and when the second one was still in the chapter, the 3rd daughter rushed at that school. The chapter cut that daughter, and the in-house daughter quit. I believe the oldest sister did too. The mother then spent all her time and money at the 3rd daughter's sorority.

Women from the chapter actually told people that there wasn't really anything wrong with the 3rd daughter, they just liked other women better. May this happen to those women when their own daughters rush.

[NoID]

Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge

First: I am not in the kind of GLO that you are in, so I cannot speak specifically to an NPC sorority experience. But I feel somewhat moved to respond.

You have the right to feel about your organization how you feel about it at any given moment. There will be times that you are all in and there will be times that you don't care what happens to it. Perhaps you may never care again.

I have some queries for you to ponder. You don't have to answer.

Did your organization ever sell itself as a legacy club or otherwise guarantee that your daughters would have a fair chance, or even a fighting chance? Or is that a belief that you held that really has no origin besides hopes that became your reality? [This has happened to me when joining a fraternal organization.]

Has the organization remained consistent in what its mission or purpose is? I imagine that most haven't changed fundamentally, such as doing good work in the community with friends.

I see and hear various complaints about NPC sorority councils (I presume this is synonymous with Executive Boards). Are these women not elected by the body (national convention)? Are they not democratically accountable to anyone? If your voice is not at the table, is there not a way to make it so? (Alumnae chapter leadership?)

I do not know the voting delegate structure of most NPC organizations, or whether some have more collegiate voice than alumnae voice. (NPHC organizations are overwhelmingly the alumni voice, while APO is primarily a collegiate voice)

All in all, what I'm trying to say is this: It's fine to feel hurt, and then numb. But I also think there is a time to engage and lodge the complaints. Not by withholding dues or donations, or even letters to leadership. (And not by social media quibbles and spats, which a lot of people believe is action.) But to be engaged in the democratic process in-person until THAT process doesn't work anymore.

Good luck to you.

I'll note my organization is among those that used to offer a second look to legacies, and has (hypocritically, IMNSHO) formally changed that policy. However, even our national president publicly celebrates legacies in her line and 3- or 4-generation families.

I only know the delegate structure of mine, but there are two categories of alumnae groups, and one doesn't get a vote. That pushes the power to those in/near large cities and sorority hubs. I could probably name the 10-12 universities whose alumnae hold all the power.

Our national organization elects by slating. Our nominating committee is selected from those who know someone. Our advisory boards are composed of people who know someone. That type of system allows a few dozen women to run the organization, pivoting it at will, and such has happened from policies to rituals to governance, with input from a minuscule minority of those in the know.

Our organization has also gotten onto the "woke" bandwagon (I hate that term, but it's one that disgruntled sisters are using). I personally thoroughly approve of efforts to extend equality and opportunity to all women, but to be not only accused of not supporting our Constitution (which is so vague the powers that be can make it mean anything, and refuse to define some terms) but encouraged to report other sisters who don't is contrary to the concepts of sisterhood.

So while I have no position on the concept of legacies being cut, I recognize that's only on paper, and the daughter of friends of the governing board *will not* be cut. And I fully understand an organization over the years becoming something with which alumnae no longer wish to be monetarily affiliated, even if they believe strongly in the underlying principles.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by NoID

So while I have no position on the concept of legacies being cut, I recognize that's only on paper, and the daughter of friends of the governing board *will not* be cut.

This times ookabillion.

I also have a hard time believing that the quota-plus, total-plus every year chapter will be chided for having a class full of legacies - if that’s what they want and if those are the women that keep them at the top of the campus pecking order.

As I learned a long time ago, there’s an awful lot of talking the talk without walking the walk.

[FSUZeta]

Originally Posted by 33girl

As I learned a long time ago, there’s an awful lot of talking the talk without walking the walk.

Yes m’am!!

[FSUZeta]

At present there are many alumnae of NPC sororities that I know who are disgruntled with their organizations for various reasons, among them the changes to legacy policies. My observations are that collegiate members are pleased with the new policies. People of the age don’t like to be told what to do, and since they are daughters and not mothers yet, they don’t realize how much it would mean to an alum for her daughter to become a sister. The curious part of the equation is the the national orgs are willing to sacrifice monetary donations from alums as a well as the countless cost free hours alums donate as local, regional, and national officers, and as advisors to collegiate chapters.

I have known women in different sororities who reacted in varying ways when their daughters were dropped by their sororities. Some threw their support to their daughters orgs during the time the daughters were in college. Some continued to support their daughters orgs after the women had graduated, not giving their own orgs the time of day. Some continued to support their own orgs only on a national level, especially if they had previously locally supported the collegiate chapter that had dropped their daughters. I do know many women like you who still hurt from the disappointment of their sororities not giving their daughters a fair chance. And 10 or 20 years later, those raw feelings claw their way to the surface and the moms relive the hurt. Hugs to you PJS. I hope you and your daughters are doing well. It is good to see you back.

[amIblue?]

FWIW - I quit volunteering when my sorority dropped our legacy policy. I also tell them that’s why I won’t volunteer when they ask if I’m available. My daughter is in high school, and she may or may not want to go through recruitment when she gets to college. She may also choose a college that doesn’t have a chapter. But I will not give them my time and effort if they won’t at least ensure she gets a second look in recruitment.

[FSUZeta]

Originally Posted by amIblue?

FWIW - I quit volunteering when my sorority dropped our legacy policy. I also tell them that’s why I won’t volunteer when they ask if I’m available. My daughter is in high school, and she may or may not want to go through recruitment when she gets to college. She may also choose a college that doesn’t have a chapter. But I will not give them my time and effort if they won’t at least ensure she gets a second look in recruitment.

Hear, hear!

[owlsandkeys]

Originally Posted by PJS

After several years, I happened to check in on the NPC Recruitment and Chapter Listing thread (what happened to irishpipes?) Anyway, I saw a post of mine (PNMs and early cuts) that had been bumped from many years ago. Reading it sent me down memory lane, and (after looking for my old password for 2 days) I thought I would return again to ask a question.

As I layed out in that old post, I had a daughter that was cut from my house during recruitment. Additional information is that I had another daughter who was also cut a couple years later. Both were quality pnms: 4.0 high school students with lengthy resumes. Both went on to successfully pledge another house, be involved members who held higher offices, graduate with bachelors and doctorate degrees and are continuing to live their best lives.

This is not a post about “why weren’t my daughters chosen;” life is way past that. My curiosity is how other moms that have been through that experience end up in terms of their relationship/involvement with their sorority. I mentioned in my original post that I was blindsided when my daughter was cut the second day by my house. Blindsided is absolutely the right word. Devastated might be a little dramatic, but close. I had no idea how much that was going to matter, or how much it would hurt. When it happened a second time to my younger daughter, I was much more prepared, cynical and thick skinned.

I had always loved my sorority, and really hoped I would feel the same about it again someday. That has not happened. It’s kind of like a scar that just doesn’t have any sensation anymore. There was a time that I was an involved alum. Now I’m completely apathetic toward the organization and volunteer neither time nor money. Interestingly, right after my daughters’ college experience, my sorority had a Legacy Project that was supposed to highlight the importance of legacies to the actives. Just a dozen years later Fraternity Council turned tail with the rest of the crowd and expunged legacy status from having any meaning whatsoever. I do wonder what the long term effects of that will be.

My guess is that many parents who have had the same experience are no longer involved as alums in their sorority/fraternity, but maybe I’m wrong. Thoughts?

You are definitely not alone. It is very normal to feel hurt (devastated, even) when something like this happens and for it to color how you see the organization as a whole and your loyalty to it moving forward.

I know someone who went through something very similar. She ceased all monetary donations to the national organization and participation in local alumni events, but did continue to be involved in her chapter's alumni group, so she occasionally goes to pledge class or chapter reunions.

Her reasoning was that she enjoyed her experience and the sorority friends she made in college, and she wants to maintain the bonds built there while also distancing herself from the sector of the organization that made or okayed the decision to exclude her daughter. Since her chapter wasn't the one that cut her daughter, this works for her.

[33girl]

There will be no li’l 33 going through rush, so I’m in a different boat than many of you, but I’m also annoyed that my group has gotten rid of our legacy policy as well. It also seems to have been extremely performative. We are not at any of the SEC schools with thousands of rushees and hundreds of legacies; it is simply not an issue for us. Yet when the legacy policy was gotten rid of (a week after our national convention, where the issue had not been brought up or discussed by the voting body), we had a thread on our official fb page filled with National volunteers saying things like we had one of the strictest policies (blatantly untrue), some chapters didn’t get to choose (also untrue) and that honoring legacies caused hazing (whaaaat?).

As I said in a previous thread, this would have all went over better if the groups would have said, “Do the math. These groups are all 100-150 years old and the amount of legacies has increased exponentially. Our policies were written when the alumnae numbers were much smaller, and they need to change so the current chapter women are allocated more autonomy in choosing their sisters.” I think everyone could have put themselves back into that college level situation and understood. Instead it was turned into something it was not proved that it was going to help. Don’t forget that all this happened DURING COVID when in effect the entire country was bat shit crazy and nothing was normal - not a time when things that many members looked on as cornerstones should have been pulled out from under.

Most of my college friends who have daughters who pledged, did not end up with a daughter in the same sorority even if their group was on campus. They are all fine with that. This isn’t about that. This is about changing things in a manner that even if you can (according to your bylaws/constitution) doesn’t mean you should.

[carnation]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Most of my college friends who have daughters who pledged, did not end up with a daughter in the same sorority even if their group was on campus. They are all fine with that. This isn’t about that. This is about changing things in a manner that even if you can (according to your bylaws/constitution) doesn’t mean you should.

YES!!!! YES!!! YESSSSSSS!!!!

[honeychile]

Good Work, 33girl!!

[PJS]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

I do know many women like you who still hurt from the disappointment of their sororities not giving their daughters a fair chance. And 10 or 20 years later, those raw feelings claw their way to the surface and the moms relive the hurt. Hugs to you PJS. I hope you and your daughters are doing well. It is good to see you back.

Originally Posted by owlsandkeys

You are definitely not alone. It is very normal to feel hurt (devastated, even) when something like this happens and for it to color how you see the organization as a whole and your loyalty to it moving forward.

I really didn't write intending to look for sympathy, but thank you to everyone that added an empathetic note to the responses they shared. They warmed my heart, and I realized I do probably still care more than I care to admit.

Originally Posted by carnation

Our organizations used to honor legacies with policies that at least gave our daughters one more shot to be noticed during rush. If they made it all the way through to preferential parties, they were put on the bid list. I don't know if any groups have legacy preferences now.

Our organizations have many legacy songs and some have special pins that legacies can wear. Mothers and sisters can come to initiation.

Many of our organizations have changed. From being a group of like-minded women, they have devolved into political organizations. (Look up the Kappa Kappa Gamma suit at the University of Wyoming.) Because of this, the NPCs have lost incredible amounts of money and some alum clubs have folded in protest. There are many of us who will resign if our groups remove God and Christ from the rituals (some groups are trying).

I have heard of numerous cases in which committees were stacked to get the voting results that various sororities wanted. Major decisions were made at the council level in which members had no say and then the council would express fake surprise at the members' anger. Some sororities are putting on a show of pretending to backtrack and consult the membership but no one believes them anymore.

Though none of my daughters were rejected from my sorority (my group never had a chapter where they rushed), I am definitely down on my group. I have cut off all contributions. I have 5 granddaughters with the oldest now in high school, and I don't care if they rush. Several times a month, I hear something revolting that an NPC group has pulled on their members without consulting them and who wants people they love to be subjectd to that?

Yes, you are describing my organization, carnation. Over the last 3 years, Fraternity Council has declared legacy status persona non grata, pressured active members to pledge a biological male (they just countersued the 7 U of W members, arguing in a legal filing that the term “woman” has evolved since our founding 150 years ago,) and felt compelled to criticize the Supreme Court and voice support for abortion with an official "Statement." Let's just say those decisions didn't reflect the views of all members or alumni, and I fail to see how pushing a political agenda will strengthen or improve our group. I feel like I don't even recognize my sorority anymore. From what I have observed online, these decisions have only caused anger and division and weakened alumni support.