If No Deferred Recruitment, What's A Good Alternative?

[alphagamgirl06]

To answer you questions:

1.) In general, how would you describe Greek life on your campus?
(competitive vs. non-competitve, percentage of students who are Greek, location of the school: north vs. south, etc... be as specific as you'd like)

I would say recruitment at my school is starting to become fairly competitive. Its a small school in the south with about 5000 students. Greek life represents about 10-12% of the student body.

1.) Did your school have deferred recruitment?

No we have formal recruitment in the Fall.

2.) What was total? Or if you didn't reach total (or didn't follow this system at all) what was your average chapter size while at school?

The sororities have about around 70 to 80 members each and the fraternities around 50 to 60 members. PC Chapter total is 70 and every group is at/over total. IFC I have no idea.

3.) What were average new member class sizes for your chapter?

Normally around 30 to 35

4.) On average, how many freshmen dropped out during the new member program? ... or provide more specific numbers if you have them and want to disclose that information.

It really varies year to year the year before last we had 100% retention, last year we lost about 5 members. I would say on average each chapter looses around 2-4 girls before initiation.

5.) If a significant number of them dropped, for the most part, what were the reasons? (In trouble academically, too time consuming, money issues, etc.)

Normally most of girls that do drop out, leave because they didn't get the chapter they wanted or after they found out what was expected from them they decided they didnt want to be greek. A few do leave because of money issues but they are told the cost during recruitment.
6.) Any other info that you think would be helpful.

I am actually a fan of fall formal recruitment if it is done with some sort of structure. Being at a school where most of the students orignally dont plan to go greek I would say we do a good job at really promoting it within the first few weeks of school. PC send the Rho Gams door to door in the freshman dorms to advertise recruitment. We setup registration/info tables in their dorm lobby and the student center. Most of the orientation leaders are greek. So we are kind of in their face a lot they can't help but listen.

[minDyG]

IMHO, the "tier system" you described sounds totally acceptable and implementable, but BY NO MEANS should the word "tier" be used in any way! Call it anything but a tier system, and your PNMs will be none the wiser. In fact, I wouldn't put any information regarding how many new members each org is allowed to pledge in any of the literature available to PNMs. That's just begging for each org to gain a negative stigma.

I really hate the idea of a Greek-wide new member period. Every one of the issues you mentioned were covered in our DG new member meetings, and I think that it's really the org's responsibility to instill these values in its new members. My 2 cents.

[Xidelt]

ASTalumna, how do National/International HQ feel about the school telling these orgs that XYZ can't pledge as many new members as ABC because of grades, the possible "tier" system, and extra new member training? I know that the school is there to regulate the chapters and that the school doesn't have to recognize or necessarily allow any of the chapters to be there, but it seems to me that the school administration is really overstepping its bounds with some of these extra conditions that it wants to put on the chapters. If I was a National Council member for one of the GLOs on your campus, I would really be pissed with some of these ideas and the way they are being communicated/handled. I can't believe that no one from HQ has cried foul yet. It is the job of the school administrators and national HQ to govern the chapters TOGETHER. I personally don't think any chapter on campus should be treated differently from any other chapter unless they have violated an already established rule or guideline, such as a hazing incident or having members fall below the minimum GPA.

[ComradesTrue]

AST-

You may have stated this before, but I am super tired at the moment and not scanning well- do other large scale groups on your campus have to go to these silly supplemental type meetings? Example: athletes, work-study, honors program, etc? I just don't see the purpose, and I can even see it being a detriment for getting PNMs to join. Who wants to join a social organization that has at minimum 3 meetings a week? Throw in a few actual social events and every night of the week would be devoted to the sorority. That could seem very overwhelming to a first semester student, even if it is someone who is very interested in Greek Life.

Also, how does the Greek GPA compare to the all student average? Why are the Greeks being singled out?

As for you other questions, I am more than happy to answer them. However, I can tell you that my campus is the complete antithesis of what yours sounds like- would you still be interested or not? I can do it tomorrow when I am less tired.

[littleowl33]

In general, how would you describe Greek life on your campus?
Hopkins is in the Mid-Atlantic area, but I would say the attitude towards Greek Life is much more northern than southern. Recruitment is somewhat competitive, but more so between the sororities who are all trying to bid the "best" PNMs. About 200ish PNMs rush, of which about 175 are freshmen and 25 are sophomores. Virtually everyone who Prefs is placed, but a lot of PNMs tend to drop out if they're not invited back to their favorites. This year, of about 215 originally registered, 145 accepted their bids and pledged. Sophomores face much heavier cuts. Recs are hardly ever received or used, but legacies are taken pretty seriously. About 25% of the student body is Greek and the Independents aren't terribly anti-Greek - mostly just indifferent.

Did your school have deferred recruitment?
Yes. During the fall we are allowed to "recruit" by holding two "Meet the Sisters" events a month. At these events we can't give out anything except small snack items, and they're usually events like watching a TV show premiere or decorating cookies with the sisters. No freshmen women are allowed in sorority members' dorm rooms/residences (we're all unhoused) or at any sorority social events like mixers, date parties or formals, and we cannot buy them any items or food. Normal Social Contact starts on January 1st, and recruitment begins at the end of January (at which time strict silence goes into effect).

What was total?
Chapter total is 85. This spring three chapters were around 120-130, and one was around 85.

What were average new member class sizes for your chapter?
This year everyone had 35-40 (after COB).

On average, how many freshmen dropped out during the new member program?
Every group usually has 1-2 drop.

If a significant number of them dropped, for the most part, what were the reasons?
They're almost always due to "not clicking" with the sisters, but this year more cited financial reasons (not surprisingly).


There are times when I wish we didn't have deferred. The dirty rushing that goes on here is incredible and it's very frustrating. Chapters who follow the rules are at a big disadvantage - PNMs don't know the rules and when they're not being dirty rushed by a group, they figure it's because the group isn't trying or isn't cool. Many PNMs form very solid opinions on the perceived reputations of every chapter, and as a result set their hearts on one or two chapters and refuse to give the others a chance. If they don't get their top choice(s), they drop out. If we didn't have deferred recruitment, I think this would be less of an issue because the PNMs wouldn't have a whole semester of Greeks (and non-Greeks) pounding stereotypes into their heads to try to make their own group sound better. PNMs can also be turned off by this and decide not to rush. They also form their own groups of friends first semester and decide that they don't need to rush because they already have friends.

On the flip side, many of my sisters will say that if we didn't have deferred recruitment, they never would have rushed because they would have been intimidated, not interested, whatever. Having a semester to think about it and get used to the idea can change the minds of people who might be afraid to give it a try.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by Blondie93

AST-

You may have stated this before, but I am super tired at the moment and not scanning well- do other large scale groups on your campus have to go to these silly supplemental type meetings? Example: athletes, work-study, honors program, etc? I just don't see the purpose, and I can even see it being a detriment for getting PNMs to join. Who wants to join a social organization that has at minimum 3 meetings a week? Throw in a few actual social events and every night of the week would be devoted to the sorority. That could seem very overwhelming to a first semester student, even if it is someone who is very interested in Greek Life.

Also, how does the Greek GPA compare to the all student average? Why are the Greeks being singled out?

As for you other questions, I am more than happy to answer them. However, I can tell you that my campus is the complete antithesis of what yours sounds like- would you still be interested or not? I can do it tomorrow when I am less tired.

No other groups on campus are required to have these meetings... which is why I'm completely confused by the whole thing.

The Greek Advisor actually just received word a couple of weeks ago that the all-Greek GPA was once again above the undergraduate GPA for 2008-2009.

And if you could still give me the information for your school, that'd be great

Originally Posted by Xidelt

ASTalumna, how do National/International HQ feel about the school telling these orgs that XYZ can't pledge as many new members as ABC because of grades, the possible "tier" system, and extra new member training? I know that the school is there to regulate the chapters and that the school doesn't have to recognize or necessarily allow any of the chapters to be there, but it seems to me that the school administration is really overstepping its bounds with some of these extra conditions that it wants to put on the chapters. If I was a National Council member for one of the GLOs on your campus, I would really be pissed with some of these ideas and the way they are being communicated/handled. I can't believe that no one from HQ has cried foul yet. It is the job of the school administrators and national HQ to govern the chapters TOGETHER. I personally don't think any chapter on campus should be treated differently from any other chapter unless they have violated an already established rule or guideline, such as a hazing incident or having members fall below the minimum GPA.

This is what I'm concerned about at the moment.

While it doesn't seem as though the tier system will be implemented, the supplemental new member program probably will. From what I understand, last year at convention, AST established that any addtional training/educational program that is taught to the new members must be approved through National Staff (most likely to try to eliminate the possibility of hazing). What the exact procedure is for providing them with this information (and how detailed it has to be), I'm not sure. But this is going to create even more work for the sisters. And I would be very curious to see what would happen if this wasn't approved.

And once again, this is why I'm frustrated that all of this is being established over the summer. No one seems to be aware of how exactly this will work yet, and I don't want the sisters to have to deal with all of these issues in the first few weeks of school.

[Gusteau]

How do the other sororities feel about moving away from deferred?

It seems to me that recruiting first semester freshman is beneficial for the fraternities on your campus but not the sororities. Couldn't your Panhellenic simply choose not to recruit in the fall? This would, of course, be something that all of the sororities would have to agree upon, but it could work out for your campus climate.

As to the supplemental new member ed. I think its unrealistic to have this be more than a one-time Saturday afternoon seminar. Would this happen in the Spring as well, or just the Fall? Also, since this is so you can recruit first semester freshman, shouldn't first semester freshman be the only people required to attend?

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by Gusteau

How do the other sororities feel about moving away from deferred?

It seems to me that recruiting first semester freshman is beneficial for the fraternities on your campus but not the sororities. Couldn't your Panhellenic simply choose not to recruit in the fall? This would, of course, be something that all of the sororities would have to agree upon, but it could work out for your campus climate.

As to the supplemental new member ed. I think its unrealistic to have this be more than a one-time Saturday afternoon seminar. Would this happen in the Spring as well, or just the Fall? Also, since this is so you can recruit first semester freshman, shouldn't first semester freshman be the only people required to attend?

I honestly don't know what the overall feeling is about this whole thing. But I think that where all of the chapters have struggled so much for numbers, they're seeing it as being beneficial. But with recruitment numbers going up recently (for the sororities), I'm not sure.

IFC actually made this whole thing happen, and Panhellenic voted (about a year and a half ago) to support their decision and encourage them to start the process of trying to get deferred recruitment done away with. I'm not sure if they realize that IFC and Panhellenic are two completely different entities and each can choose to do things on their own. So.. 1.) I'm confused as to why Panhellenic was asked to approve this, 2.) I'm not sure if they know that one group can have deferred recruitment while the other doesn't, and 3.) Neither group has yet to vote on this supplemental new member program, and it seems to me as if it's just being.. throw in there, so to speak, as an "amendment" to a vote that occurred more than a year ago.

The supplemental new member program would happen in both the fall and the spring. There are new students who start school in January, so they would have to do it both semesters.

And if you were only to have first semester freshmen go through this extra program, it would be like you were singling them out. There's no way that would fly with the national organization... AST's, at least... and I'm guessing the same would go for the others.

[Psi U MC Vito]

I still agree with others that this supplemental thing is somwthing that all freshman should already have, not something for just greeks. I know quite a few schiil have a freshman orientation type course. Yours doesn't? Also Ie would probally make more sense for new pledges to do something like Greeklifeedu instead, which is targeted towards Greeks.

[alphagamgirl06]

Originally Posted by Gusteau

It seems to me that recruiting first semester freshman is beneficial for the fraternities on your campus but not the sororities. Couldn't your Panhellenic simply choose not to recruit in the fall?

I am not sure what the fraternity/ sorority relationships are like at PSB but that would not work for my school. We have found that girls are easily influenced by boys. Have fraternity recruitment in the fall allows guys a chance to learn all about their fraternities relationship with each different sorority and the stereotypes, giving them more information to tell their girlsfriend etc. We have this issue big time and our recruitments are only a week or two apart. That why we had to go to sorority recruitment is always first.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by alphagamgirl06

I am not sure what the fraternity/ sorority relationships are like at PSB but that would not work for my school. We have found that girls are easily influenced by boys. Have fraternity recruitment in the fall allows guys a chance to learn all about their fraternities relationship with each different sorority and the stereotypes, giving them more information to tell their girlsfriend etc. We have this issue big time and our recruitments are only a week or two apart. That why we had to go to sorority recruitment is always first.

And the other side of the coin is....the guys join fraternities, get to actually KNOW the women in the Greek system and advise the women rushing in the spring about what the sorority members are truly like, not stereotypes. This is a very small system and I'd bet that the guys pledging in the fall will personally know the majority of the people in the Greek system, sororities and fraternities, by the end of the semester. (Their chapter sizes are smaller than your NM class sizes, for comparison.)

Xidelt - a lot of the national HQs used to just bend over and take whatever the school was giving them as far as supplemental programs, ranking systems etc were concerned. They were terrified of losing their chapter on campus if they didn't comply. Now that these things have been around for a few years, they see that they're losing chapters ANYWAY because of the way the school uses the rankings, and they're putting their feet down. Thank heaven.

ASTalumna06 - it definitely sounds like the chapters assume if the guys do something, the girls must do it also. This is definitely not the case. Ask them to call anyone at Clarion if they don't believe you. I guess they a vote to "support" IFC's decision would help when they went to the administration, which kind of is true, but it doesn't mean Panhel has to follow suit.

[Gusteau]

Originally Posted by alphagamgirl06

I am not sure what the fraternity/ sorority relationships are like at PSB but that would not work for my school. We have found that girls are easily influenced by boys. Have fraternity recruitment in the fall allows guys a chance to learn all about their fraternities relationship with each different sorority and the stereotypes, giving them more information to tell their girlsfriend etc. We have this issue big time and our recruitments are only a week or two apart. That why we had to go to sorority recruitment is always first.

In addition to what 33girl said, the campus was using deferred recruitment beforehand so there was a whole semester for rumors and stereotyping before recruitment anyway. And it's true that fraternity influence may be positive.

But let's face it, if schools that have formal recruitment in August before school even starts have tent talk the rumors are going to fly regardless of timing.

[ComradesTrue]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

1.) In general, how would you describe Greek life on your campus? (competitive vs. non-competitve, percentage of students who are Greek, location of the school: north vs. south, etc... be as specific as you'd like)
1.) Did your school have deferred recruitment?
2.) What was total? Or if you didn't reach total (or didn't follow this system at all) what was your average chapter size while at school?
3.) What were average new member class sizes for your chapter?
4.) On average, how many freshmen dropped out during the new member program? ... or provide more specific numbers if you have them and want to disclose that information.
5.) If a significant number of them dropped, for the most part, what were the reasons? (In trouble academically, too time consuming, money issues, etc.)
6.) Any other info that you think would be helpful.

Like I mentioned before, this is a very different type of Greek Life system that what you have. Let me know if you have more questions. I was in school from 91-95. em_adpi just graduated this year, so she may be able to add some current details.


TCU/Texas Christian University:
1. Rush is competitive. When I was there approx 40% of women were members of an NPC organization. There were 10 houses when I pledged, and then one closed soon after that. Greek Life was an integral part of the entire campus culture. Many women came to campus with knowledge of the system and the houses. When people referenced you on campus it almost always included your Greek membership.

2. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I am thinking total was about 140, with most houses between 120-150. The variation stemmed from numbers of transfers. We tended to lose several members a year to that.

3. The four years that I was there quota ranged from 38-44.

4. While I was there we lost exactly one person prior to initiation. Two of those years pledgeships were for a full semester. That was probably pretty typical for all chapters... between 0-2 depledges over the entire four years. There were a few of the 10 chapters that probably had more depldges- the house that closed lost a bunch in their last two years and one or two other houses would have a handful (1-5) depledge each year.

5. The girl that dropped from our chapter just felt that Greek Life wasn't for her. Another girl dropped from another chapter for a similar reason- she wanted to be involved in some other organizations and in the time squeeze she opted out of the sorority. One person dropped near the end of the semester when she realized that she wasn't going to make grades to get initiated (refer back to full semester pledgeships; members had to make a 2.25 to be initiated. Those that didn't would have to wait another semester, and then over the summer too! She didn't want to wait and have the stigma of being a "holdover").

For the chapters that I referenced that had a few more members drop out I believe the reasons were more varied: less organized chapters, disapointment with not getting first choice on bid day, etc. On our campus the reason for dropping was very rarely financial.

6. At the time that I was there we only had Fall Formal Rush. COB carried a stigma, for some (stupid) reason. Two chapters did it, but not in a very open manner. Two additional chapters were doing it by my senior year, getting great girls, and the stigma started to wane. I am not sure how much COB there is today. Maybe em_adpi can chime in.

While we did have houses, they were university owned, and all built structurally the same in a townhouse type style. Each house slept 36 members, and so those 36 people paid the university the same rate as if they lived in the dorm. This covered the housing expense. Therefore dues were relatively low, as for the most part, they did not have to cover a house. (a small portion of dues would go for furnishings, remodeling common areas, etc). That is why I referenced that few people dropped due to financial reasons.

I hope that this helps!

[pearlbubbles]

First, I just wanted to say that I agree about all the points made about the "tier" system and the educational program. I think anything official that uses "tier" will give people the wrong impression. And, most importantly, may have incoming freshmen end up in houses that aren't right for them because either the fraternities' push for the higher GPA guys or that the incoming freshmen may misinterpret the point of the "tier." And I have this feeling that the national organizations would be less than pleased that some fraternities were getting recruiting leg-ups. No one wants more Greek organizations closing, after all.

Also, I think it's terrible to put this on the NPC community right before the end of school. It doesn't sound like a terribly put-together plan at all, and I feel like that will be one of the biggest issues with it. And I don't even want to think about suddenly letting people know to get recs in for PNMs.

With all that said, I can give a little bit of insight into this. My school, CU Boulder, used Formal Fall until a risk management issue (ighly publicized, no need to re-mention) in Fall 2004. The University created a document called the "Registered Fraternal Organizations Agreement" (RFOA) and asked all the Greeks to sign it; one of its major stipulations was deferred recuitment. All 10 NPCs and all eleven (I think?) multi-cultural Greek organizations signed it. The fraternities decided not to, so they are no longer recognized members of our Greek system--basically meaning they don't get any specific sort of help from the university, like the Greek Advisor or school sponsored webpages. They can still advertise their recruitment though--they do quite a bit of chalking on campus.

Between the years 2006 and 2008, the sororities did deffered recruitment. We lost one of the NPCs during that time due to low numbers. But in Spring 2008, the community approved a new agreement called "The Standards of Excellence." I'm not quite sure of the specific details, but the ones I do remember are as follows:

1. Two New Member education classes. One the day following Bid Day that's a sort of "So Now You're Greek..." type of thing. The second is a alcohol education class.

2. Completion of the online Greeklife.edu Or, whatever it's called now. When I went through, it was just alcohol.edu.

3. A forty-day new member period where the sororites are suposed to promote sisterhood. Any social events can either be: Sisters only (21+ allowed to drink) or sisters and a fraternity (no alcohol). (I won't go into this any more, but I'm sure you all can insinuate the "barrel of fun" nature of it.)

Now, with that background, on to the specific answers to the questions. I will try to provide fraternity informaton as well, where I know it.

1.) In general, how would you describe Greek life on your campus?

I'd say it's pretty competitive. In the two years I was around for formal spring, around 600 girls went through recruitment. This past fall, about 900 went through. We currently have around 1500 women in the Greek system.

2.) Did your school have deferred recruitment?

As I mentioned above, we were deferred for a three-year period due to risk management control.

3.) What was total? Or if you didn't reach total (or didn't follow this system at all) what was your average chapter size while at school? What were average new member class sizes for your chapter?
I'm not quite sure on total the year I was a new member, but the new member classes were between thirty and forty women. The next year the new member class sizes were the same and total was 130 or so. This year, our total was about 170, and new member classes were between sixty and seventy women.

4.) On average, how many freshmen dropped out during the new member program? ... or provide more specific numbers if you have them and want to disclose that information.

This is the thing that bothers me about deferred versus formal fall. If formal recruitment is deferred, less girls go through recruitment, but more of them stay. In formal fall, more go through, but more drop out. The difference, though, is that even with the higher number of girls dropping out, the number retained through formal fall is higher than the number received through deferred. Sorry about the tangent.

I think in the two years I was there for deferred, about 1-5 women dropped, but they were necessarily all new members. The fall numbers, I can't say specifically what the numbers for the other chapters were, but we ended up initiating 54 out of the 74 who originally received bids. From what I heard from friends, the other houses were about the same.

5.) If a significant number of them dropped, for the most part, what were the reasons? (In trouble academically, too time consuming, money issues, etc.)

I think a majority of the formal fall drops were because the women decided that Greek life didn't end up being what they expected it to be. Although, I know that quite a few were due to financial reasons.


I hope this has helped. And I apologize for being so long-winded.


ETA: I forgot to write information about the fraternities. They do both Formal Fall and Formal Spring. I'm not sure about drop numbers, but I know a few of my friends have left for finances and it just not being their thing. The guys don't have total, but the chapter numbers range from 20 men to 120 men. It just varies from fraternity to fraternity. We currently have fifteen active fraternities.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by pearlbubbles

This is the thing that bothers me about deferred versus formal fall. If formal recruitment is deferred, less girls go through recruitment, but more of them stay. In formal fall, more go through, but more drop out. The difference, though, is that even with the higher number of girls dropping out, the number retained through formal fall is higher than the number received through deferred.

When you say "retained" do you mean just to initiation, or throughout their college career? Or is it really too early for you guys to tell?