Has the tradition of Legacies outgrown its usefulness?

[Nanners52674]

Originally Posted by brokengymnast75

I don't know how to word this properly, but I still feel almost like my mom and I deserve something from having my mom's sorority affect my childhood so much through all the service she did. It's just a difficult balance between honoring alumnae's service but still allowing the chapter to choose who they want.

I just don't agree with that. I understand it impacted your childhood but it was your moms choice. If she did everything she did as an Alumna with the ultimate hope of it getting you into the same sorority that's not doing the work for the right reason. Just because you're a "super legacy" doesn't mean a chapter who thinks you would not be a good fit should have to take you.

It's a catch 22 for sororities don't take every legacy and risk alienating super involved alumni, or take nothing but legacies and be accused of elitism and a form of nepotism.

[honeychile]

Maybe some sororities wouldn't have a problem with eliminating grandmothers etc, but I guarantee you that Alpha Delta Pi would never do that. In the last couple years, there were legacies who were direct descendents of Founders who were initiated with their anscestors' original Adelphean badge.

I don't think this should be a Panhellenic edict, either. I know that Kappas respect legacies, but trust the chapter to make the final decision; others may do so, too. What I'd like to see is having the NPC ask each of the member organizations to reevaluate their legacy system, and if possible, share it.

[APhiAnna]

Originally Posted by honeychile

Maybe some sororities wouldn't have a problem with eliminating grandmothers etc, but I guarantee you that Alpha Delta Pi would never do that. In the last couple years, there were legacies who were direct descendents of Founders who were initiated with their anscestors' original Adelphean badge.

I think a direct descendent of a founder would certainly fall under the "special circumstances" mentioned in my original post. Although I feel 33girl had the better idea...let the chapters dictate who is considered a legacy rather than the nationals. I think if a direct descendent of a founder came through our chapter wouldn't even need pressure from nationals to bid them, regardless of legacy policy.

[TriDeltaSallie]

Originally Posted by honeychile

In the last couple years, there were legacies who were direct descendents of Founders who were initiated with their anscestors' original Adelphean badge.

That is so special! How neat for those legacies as well as the members at the initiation.

This is the first time I've heard a story like this. I wonder how often it happens in the various GLOs?

(Sorry for the thread drift. I'm just a history lover so this really caught my attention!)

[KSUViolet06]

Right. Folks need to realize that we are not sitting around rubbing our hands together and laughing like Dr. Evil waiting to see how many legacies we can cut.

Depending on the school, it's necessary to cut some. There's no personal dislike of legacies or feelings involved, it's just something that needs to be done in order to give some non-legacies a shot.

[APhiAnna]

Perhaps one way, which would be controversial for sure, is to eliminate grandmothers from the legacy standings. As of right now I know for the majority of GLOs, although I can't speak for all, legacies are sisters/daughters/granddaughters. I am not saying that the legacy bond shared between a grandmother and granddaughter isn't special, because it is. But perhaps it would be one way to weed down the pool.

Obviously at a school with less legacies the rec form would still come in and the connection would still be acknowledged, just how sometimes cousins and aunts and great-grandmothers are acknowledged by chapters with less legacies. But at those cut-throat SEC schools it might help the burden. Just a thought.

ETA: In cases where, for example, a grandmother is a high-ranking national officer and had no daughters of her own I am sure exceptions would be made. And I do understand it would hurt for a woman who did not have daughters or whose daughters didn't go greek (or joined another GLO) to be denied that bond with the only female in her family who would be in a position to go to her legacy.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by APhiAnna

Obviously at a school with less legacies the rec form would still come in and the connection would still be acknowledged, just how sometimes cousins and aunts and great-grandmothers are acknowledged by chapters with less legacies. But at those cut-throat SEC schools it might help the burden. Just a thought.

Maybe we should go the route of letting each chapter choose - and spell out openly - who is and who is not a legacy. For example, if XYZ in Wyoming rarely has any legacies come through, they can say legs are daughters, sisters, granddaughters, nieces, whatever. If XYZ at Ole Miss regularly has 3x the number of legacies come through rush that they can take on bid day, then a legacy is a sister or daughter of a member of that chapter. Period.

I know it isn't the fairest thing, but it might help some hurt feelings if people know right away that if little Zsa Zsa goes to a certain school, her chances will be lessened.

(And yes, I know this is kind of an unspoken rule at some places anyway. I'm proposing the bizarre concept of being straight up and honest about it.)

[cbm]

I guess I am in the minority, as I think legacies should get a little extra treatment (i.e. guaranteed parties) to a certain extent before they are cut.

My sorority (not sure if it was our chapter or nationals) was required to invite legacies back to Day 2. If we kept them until Pref, then they were at the top of our list. I worked back office for one rush and I do know that the mother's level of involvement in her local alum chapter or natioanlly had some bearing on whether or not her daughter came back again after Day 2+. (Granddaughters were not considered legacies in my chapter, again I can't remember if this was a national rule or not.) This always seemed to work out well for us, at least from the sorority's side. I also got to hear advisors make numerous courtsey phone calls to the mothers or sisters of legacies who were cut....not fun at all!

I was not a legacy to my house, but I do understand why we gave that little special treatment to daughters and sisters of our sorority sisters. I didn't mind it at all. I just took it as one of the perks of an elitist organization (because that's what a lot consider Greek organizations to be).

I have also heard it said that having a parent or sibling who is Greek, regardless of the affiliation, makes one more desirable, since the parents will know what all is involved with Greek life and there won't be too many surprises, so to speak. I'm not sure if this is the actual case or not, but it does present a good argument.

I've not listed my sorority or school anywhere on this site...not very concerned if this is giving away any secrets.

[SydneyK]

^^ I don't necessarily think you're in the minority: lots of folks think legacies should be given extra consideration. The problem is, the number of legacies is greater than the number of bids available. With strict quota/ceiling guidelines, the math just makes it impossible for every legacy to be bid to her legacy chapter (assuming both parties want the other).

Originally Posted by cbm

I have also heard it said that having a parent or sibling who is Greek, regardless of the affiliation, makes one more desirable, since the parents will know what all is involved with Greek life and there won't be too many surprises, so to speak. I'm not sure if this is the actual case or not, but it does present a good argument.

I have heard similar arguments. And I think those arguments are fair. (There are still arguments to be made, however, that someone whose parents aren't Greek can still prove him/herself an excellent fit for Greek life.)

I would be happy if there ware a general Greek-legacy status on applications. Women going through recruitment would have a place to indicate on her application/registration form whether a family member (sister, mother, father, etc...) was involved in a GLO. There wouldn't be a need to specify the sorority or fraternity. This could cut down the number of PNMs who get cut from XYZ because the XYZs know Patty PNM is an ABC legacy. If Mom (or BioSis, Aunt Jenny, or Grandma) thinks Patty PNM is a super-legacy and should be given extra consideration, then by all means, contact the chapter.

Having said, that, I don't much care for the term "super-legacy". Actually, I don't much care for the concept, either.

ETA: Even though I just put that "general legacy" status out there, I would hate it if the chapters suddenly had to deal with all the heli-moms who undoubtedly believe that their darling is a super-legacy. Probably a bad suggestion looking back, but I'm sure there are some GCers who could tweak it perfectly.

[DGTess]

@itb - no, I don't think all legacies would be offered a bid. Just as each sorority woman is an individual, each rushee is an individual, and some just won't fit. No one should feel obligated to bid or to accept solely due to a rushee's status as a legacy.

Mandatory cuts to an arbitrary number don't help the situation.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by itb

IMHO, the quota system is broke because it sets artificial limits on what a strong chapter can do and not do. If a chapter has the means to take 60 more than what quota is, they should be allowed to do so, provided that all the little Suzies want to be in that chapter.

Originally Posted by DGTess

Mandatory cuts to an arbitrary number don't help the situation.

Once again I ask - would either of you enjoy being in a chapter with 400 members? Seriously?

Would you enjoy having a choice of only 3-4 groups at a campus of 25,000 because only the "strongest" groups have survived?

[TSteven]

I'm not sure how to word this, so please be gentle with me.

So if I understand what everyone seems to be saying, the issue seems to be that some chapters have more legacies than they can bid. That there can be legacies that are a good fit and are desirable *and* the legacy herself wants to be a member. Yet due to quota etc., she may be released.

If that is the issue, then what about the following.

HQs consider changing their rules regarding Alumnae Initiation (gasp!) so that legacies may "seek" (don't know the correct terminology) membership in their legacy sorority. If ABC currently does not allow AI, they would *now* do so *if* the women was a legacy *and* she was a good fit. A sort of special consideration or exception as the case may be.

To be clear, AI would not be a guarantee at all. And may not be offered or allowed for "just anyone".

The way I envision this is that a chapter will still cut legacies and extend bids to those they want. However, for the legacy that is cut and still wants to an ABC, she would have the ability to seek membership as an alumnae. She would not be guaranteed it, but have the ability to seek it. Thus some NPC HQs would have to change their policy on AI.

Now it is true that the girl may not have benefited by having been an undergraduate member of ABC. But if she was "groomed" to be an ABC, and really wants it, and would be a good fit as an alum, then why allow it? The undergrad chapter is not compromised at all. For what it is worth, something similar seems to work well with NPHC sororities.

Finally, my intent is not to have a "ABC does not offer AI" discussion. But to have HQs think *Outside The Box*. To discuss ways that a legacy - who truly sees herself as an ABC - have a way to be an ABC and be a production member as well. Something along this line might be a partial solution to what will most likely continue to be the *more legacies than bids* issue.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by TSteven

I'm not sure how to word this, so please be gentle with me.

So if I understand what everyone seems to be saying, the issue seems to be that some chapters have more legacies than they can bid. That there can be legacies that are a good fit and are desirable *and* the legacy herself wants to be a member. Yet due to quota etc., she may be released.

If that is the issue, then what about the following.

HQs consider changing their rules regarding Alumnae Initiation (gasp!) so that legacies may "seek" (don't know the correct terminology) membership in their legacy sorority. If ABC currently does not allow AI, they would *now* do so *if* the women was a legacy *and* she was a good fit. A sort of special consideration or exception as the case may be.

To be clear, AI would not be a guarantee at all. And may not be offered or allowed for "just anyone".

The way I envision this is that a chapter will still cut legacies and extend bids to those they want. However, for the legacy that is cut and still wants to an ABC, she would have the ability to seek membership as an alumnae. She would not be guaranteed it, but have the ability to seek it. Thus some NPC HQs would have to change their policy on AI.

Now it is true that the girl may not have benefited by having been an undergraduate member of ABC. But if she was "groomed" to be an ABC, and really wants it, and would be a good fit as an alum, then why allow it? The undergrad chapter is not compromised at all. For what it is worth, something similar seems to work well with NPHC sororities.

This would end up being the NPC version of "pledging versus paper." Especially in the areas where certain sororities have too many legacies.

There would also be the problem of people PURPOSELY effing up their rush after they get cut from Pi Sigma Gamma (Prestigious Sorority Group) to AI into that group, getting on the alumnae board of Big Giant Chapter by buying their way in, and seeking vengeance for the chapter that cut them as an undergrad.

Originally Posted by TSteven

Finally, my intent is not to have a "ABC does not offer AI" discussion. But to have HQs think *Outside The Box*. To discuss ways that a legacy - who truly sees herself as an ABC - have a way to be an ABC and be a production member as well. Something along this line might be a partial solution to what will most likely continue to be the *more legacies than bids* issue.

I guarantee you that if some of these legacies went to schools where mom, sister, grandma, aunt's chapter was struggling or otherwise not what they were used to, they would stop "truly seeing themselves as an ABC" in record time. Some, not all (so don't jump down my throat).

[APhiAnna]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I guarantee you that if some of these legacies went to schools where mom, sister, grandma, aunt's chapter was struggling or otherwise not what they were used to, they would stop "truly seeing themselves as an ABC" in record time. Some, not all (so don't jump down my throat).

In some cases where XYZ at Ole Miss or Bama has more legacies going through than quota, it is interesting to question whether enough legacies are planning on joining XYZ to actually make a quota...many may decide they would rather join a different chapter making it irrelevant. However, XYZ has no way of knowing which ones are genuinely interested in joining their legacy and which ones are returning as a courtesy to their mother but have no intention in hell of actually joining...I would imagine the sorority would get it wrong on at least several PNMs. That may be where the real trouble comes in.

[cbm]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Once again I ask - would either of you enjoy being in a chapter with 400 members? Seriously?

Would you enjoy having a choice of only 3-4 groups at a campus of 25,000 because only the "strongest" groups have survived?

I did have almost 400 sisters. The year I went through rush, quota was over 85 and that was 10 years ago! I didn't think twice about it at the time, because the majority of houses on my campus (somewhere over 10 chapters) had as many members.

I stated above how we dealt with legacies, and it seemed to work for us. Some legacies just aren't desirable to the chapter and vice versa. Legacies never made up a majority (or even close to it) of our pledge classes, though.

I'm not really sure how new release figures work, but from reading other threads, it appears that girls who rank all chapter throughout rush may be guaranteed a bid. I personally feel that if you attend a full Pref day, then you should get a bid (since chapters shouldn't invite girls to Pref who they don't intend offering bids). However, I don't feel that every single PNM who maximizes her options by ranking all chapters should automatically get Pref invites...I'm not sure this is how it works, but this is what it seems I read.

We had very strong chapters on my campus (top houses) that didn't always take quota & I don't think houses should be required to. But now it seems that if a house doesn't take quota it's that they didn't "get" quota...not that they chose not to take 89 girls.