Election 2008

[BetteDavisEyes]

The McCain/Palin thread was getting away from the topic of Palin as the VP Candidate for the GOP so under the suggestion of another user, I have started a new thread for us to discuss anything & everything about this upcoming election.

Fire away!

[PeppyGPhiB]

Last night, my boyfriend and I watched McCain's speech together. It was an OK speech - I'm getting annoyed with the 9/11 references and so much of his argument revolving around his time as a POW about 40 years ago, but it was still OK. I don't dislike McCain...I just like Obama more. My boyfriend, on the other hand, has admired McCain for years and traditionally votes straight Republican ticket.

So we were watching the speech, feeling kinda "Meh" about it, until it got to this part:

I know some of you have been left behind in the changing economy and it often seems your government hasn't even noticed. Government assistance for unemployed workers was designed for the economy of the 1950s. That's going to change on my watch. My opponent promises to bring back old jobs by wishing away the global economy. We're going to help workers who've lost a job that won't come back, find a new one that won't go away.

We will prepare them for the jobs of today. We will use our community colleges to help train people for new opportunities in their communities. For workers in industries that have been hard hit, we'll help make up part of the difference in wages between their old job and a temporary, lower paid one while they receive retraining that will help them find secure new employment at a decent wage.

After hearing that, the two of us wanted to throw something heavy at him. These are the same words George Bush said back in 2002 or 2003, and he was off base then and now McCain is off base. It was a huge disappointment to us to hear that McCain is so out of touch with the American worker.

I was laid off from my first job out of college in 2001, then again from a nonprofit in 2002. I graduated from a Tier 1 university, had big student loans to prove it, and yet I couldn't get a professional job to pay the bills...it seemed like no one I knew could. At that time, not even the temp agencies had jobs to offer. I remember coming home one night after spending some time at the "work source" office and turning on the State of the Union address to hear George Bush tell America that people like me needed to go to community college to learn the skills necessary for today's jobs. And I remember the tremendous sinking feeling I had of realizing that he truly did not understand what was really going on in this country...and that he didn't even know people like me existed.

If George Bush and John McCain would go into unemployment offices around the country, they would learn a lot. I have to think that they haven't done this, because if they had, they would know that unemployment offices today are filled with many white collar, educated professionals in addition to the factory workers that I think they're thinking of. In 2002, when I was called in randomly to sit through a "training" at the unemployment office, the office was filled with professionals with bachelor's degrees, MBAs and, yes, PhDs! The instructors were ashamed to be "instructing" people who just days or weeks before had been at the top of their ladders to look into community college classes. They knew that their offices had nothing to support us.

At the same time, my boyfriend, who has an engineering degree from Michigan and an MBA in Finance from a good school, had been unemployed for several months. He was laid off and replaced by engineering contractors from Russia, here on work visas. He was on unemployment for a while, but then it ran out, and President Bush decided not to expand federal unemployment benefits. He took a job in another field, and moved around the country trying to get back into engineering. A few years ago, he finally got his dream job at Boeing...nearly 15 years after he graduated with his aerospace engineering degree.

So I would like to ask John McCain, What are these jobs that haven't and won't disappear? Manufactering is already gone, and without major tax penalties to corporations they won't be coming back. And now science and technology jobs are either being offshored or taken by foreign contractors here on visas. We graduate people with tech and engineering degrees, but then don't offer them the jobs...because we can bring in people from India or Russia that will work for less. Even software engineering is being done in India now.

What kind of a job is a community college supposed to secure us in the future economy? Because right now the only thing I see our economy supporting is the service sector. Some business services, such as my field of marketing, and lawyers, will stay here, but even my company just recently sent our accounting/billing overseas. Are we supposed to be a country of bartenders, waiters/waitresses, hotel clerks, medical assistants and massage therapists?

I think what John McCain and George Bush really meant was that factory workers who lost their jobs because Americans are obsessed with cheap crap should go to community colleges to learn computer programming or something like that. But - DUH - that's not a stable choice anymore either! What ARE the jobs that will stay here?!

[DaemonSeid]

[B]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

What kind of a job is a community college supposed to secure us in the future economy?

If that is not lowering the bar...i don't know what is....

[BetteDavisEyes]

To be honest, I can't think of a job that is relatively stable anymore. I am a credentialed teacher with a Masters yet I was still laid off last year. I was fortunate enough to have my pink slip rescinded but I know that for many other teachers, they weren't as lucky as me.

Here's another article I found on the GOP slamming community organizers. My aunt is extremely angry over this issue because she is a very conservative woman and a community organizer. The way the GOP has been mocking them has made her decide to not vote for McCain and instead vote for Obama instead.

[DaemonSeid]

that grand slam conservatives kaap saying the GOP hit this week??

...looks like it bounce off of one of these in left field:

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

that grand slam conservatives kaap saying the GOP hit this week??

...looks like it bounce off of one of these in left field:

LOL - you do realize that if it hits the foul pole, it's a home run, right?

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

LOL - you do realize that if it hits the foul pole, it's a home run, right?

depends on which way it falls.

[PhiGam]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

Last night, my boyfriend and I watched McCain's speech together. It was an OK speech - I'm getting annoyed with the 9/11 references and so much of his argument revolving around his time as a POW about 40 years ago, but it was still OK. I don't dislike McCain...I just like Obama more. My boyfriend, on the other hand, has admired McCain for years and traditionally votes straight Republican ticket.

So we were watching the speech, feeling kinda "Meh" about it, until it got to this part:



After hearing that, the two of us wanted to throw something heavy at him. These are the same words George Bush said back in 2002 or 2003, and he was off base then and now McCain is off base. It was a huge disappointment to us to hear that McCain is so out of touch with the American worker.

I was laid off from my first job out of college in 2001, then again from a nonprofit in 2002. I graduated from a Tier 1 university, had big student loans to prove it, and yet I couldn't get a professional job to pay the bills...it seemed like no one I knew could. At that time, not even the temp agencies had jobs to offer. I remember coming home one night after spending some time at the "work source" office and turning on the State of the Union address to hear George Bush tell America that people like me needed to go to community college to learn the skills necessary for today's jobs. And I remember the tremendous sinking feeling I had of realizing that he truly did not understand what was really going on in this country...and that he didn't even know people like me existed.

If George Bush and John McCain would go into unemployment offices around the country, they would learn a lot. I have to think that they haven't done this, because if they had, they would know that unemployment offices today are filled with many white collar, educated professionals in addition to the factory workers that I think they're thinking of. In 2002, when I was called in randomly to sit through a "training" at the unemployment office, the office was filled with professionals with bachelor's degrees, MBAs and, yes, PhDs! The instructors were ashamed to be "instructing" people who just days or weeks before had been at the top of their ladders to look into community college classes. They knew that their offices had nothing to support us.

At the same time, my boyfriend, who has an engineering degree from Michigan and an MBA in Finance from a good school, had been unemployed for several months. He was laid off and replaced by engineering contractors from Russia, here on work visas. He was on unemployment for a while, but then it ran out, and President Bush decided not to expand federal unemployment benefits. He took a job in another field, and moved around the country trying to get back into engineering. A few years ago, he finally got his dream job at Boeing...nearly 15 years after he graduated with his aerospace engineering degree.

So I would like to ask John McCain, What are these jobs that haven't and won't disappear? Manufactering is already gone, and without major tax penalties to corporations they won't be coming back. And now science and technology jobs are either being offshored or taken by foreign contractors here on visas. We graduate people with tech and engineering degrees, but then don't offer them the jobs...because we can bring in people from India or Russia that will work for less. Even software engineering is being done in India now.

What kind of a job is a community college supposed to secure us in the future economy? Because right now the only thing I see our economy supporting is the service sector. Some business services, such as my field of marketing, and lawyers, will stay here, but even my company just recently sent our accounting/billing overseas. Are we supposed to be a country of bartenders, waiters/waitresses, hotel clerks, medical assistants and massage therapists?

I think what John McCain and George Bush really meant was that factory workers who lost their jobs because Americans are obsessed with cheap crap should go to community colleges to learn computer programming or something like that. But - DUH - that's not a stable choice anymore either! What ARE the jobs that will stay here?!

I'm not sure who can be blamed for the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs other then the CEOs whom are guilty of it or the American consumer who acts selfishly and buys the cheapest product available. Our conversion to a service-based economy is scary and seemingly causes a greater divide between the haves and the have-nots.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but there isn't anything that we can realistically do to prevent it without violating WTO rules and shitting on a couple of free trade agreements. Barack has proposed to end tax breaks on companies that send jobs overseas- something that John McCain voted NO on. This is one of the few issues where I agree with Obama even though McCain may end up being right. There are a lot of economists whom believe that outsourcing helps our economy and although that may be true to a point, eventually it makes the economy unstable.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

I remember coming home one night after spending some time at the "work source" office and turning on the State of the Union address to hear George Bush tell America that people like me needed to go to community college to learn the skills necessary for today's jobs.

The thing is, neither guy (but especially not McCain) are talking to "people like (you)" on this topic, as much as your situation sucked.

The majority of the unemployed still have less than a college degree, and skills programs are dedicated toward these individuals. The whole point is that manufacturing jobs are falling at the highest and most consistent rate, and that these jobs will likely never come back (because of the reality of global business, American demand for low costs and the existence of cheaper labor alternatives). This isn't a "let's make the art students go to a paralegal class"-type thing, at least in conception.

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

If George Bush and John McCain would go into unemployment offices around the country, they would learn a lot. I have to think that they haven't done this, because if they had, they would know that unemployment offices today are filled with many white collar, educated professionals in addition to the factory workers that I think they're thinking of. In 2002, when I was called in randomly to sit through a "training" at the unemployment office, the office was filled with professionals with bachelor's degrees, MBAs and, yes, PhDs! The instructors were ashamed to be "instructing" people who just days or weeks before had been at the top of their ladders to look into community college classes. They knew that their offices had nothing to support us.

But what can the government actually do to support educated, white-collar professionals? Doesn't this seem like a private-sector issue (likely related to the middle-management bloat of the '80s and '90s)?

I guess I'm trying to say that it has to be bottom-up change - it's similar to supply-side versus demand-side economic stimulus, in that the pool of white-collar professionals will benefit from a more capable pool of lower-educated workers with job skills moving beyond loading a machine with materials and wearing eye protection. After all, if there's no one to manage, who needs a manager?

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

So I would like to ask John McCain, What are these jobs that haven't and won't disappear? Manufactering is already gone, and without major tax penalties to corporations they won't be coming back. And now science and technology jobs are either being offshored or taken by foreign contractors here on visas. We graduate people with tech and engineering degrees, but then don't offer them the jobs...because we can bring in people from India or Russia that will work for less. Even software engineering is being done in India now.

Would you rather we didn't participate in the global economy? Do you think the most important reason to be in business is to make a profit?

The confluence of these things is that there has to be a benefit to the business - and that comes not from tax subsidies, unenforceable regulation or red tape, or other such regressive taxes. Instead, we have to offer businesses a benefit from another angle - and a workforce that has a better, unique skill set would be one such way.

However, I do completely agree with your conclusion, but just view it in a different way - the key is to attack the problem from a variety of more creative angles than "tax breaks!!!" in a hit-and-run fashion. However, I don't think either McCain or Obama have really given me any indication they can do this - in fact, both side's plans seem regressive to me, and seem to pile the burden back onto the consumer in the end.

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

What kind of a job is a community college supposed to secure us in the future economy? Because right now the only thing I see our economy supporting is the service sector. Some business services, such as my field of marketing, and lawyers, will stay here, but even my company just recently sent our accounting/billing overseas. Are we supposed to be a country of bartenders, waiters/waitresses, hotel clerks, medical assistants and massage therapists?

This is kind of a drastic departure/aside, and I mean this less as "against your ideas" than "topic for discussion" - with that said . . .

America is in the middle of a drastic change, from a manufacturing-based economy to a nebulous one, and through the Bush era we haven't done a good job at all of giving ourselves direction (whether that's Bush's fault is up for discussion, but I'll just use "we" to represent the nation as a whole). You speak of service jobs with disdain, which I think most people agree with, and that's likely a relic of an impression of the old, booming American economy. However, it may very well be that we start viewing a massage therapist as a "white-color" semi-skilled profession, on par with a payroll clerk with an AA in business math/accounting.

The manufacturing jobs are NOT coming back - never. Just like we put up with factory farms because most of us don't want to pay $12/lb for pork, we're going to have to adapt to outsourcing. Right now, it's a house of cards - but development has to start somewhere, and starting with the middle class is a recipe for disaster, because you're just bloating the middle of the house. Eventually, you have to strengthen the base.

[darling1]

i want you to know that this post really grabbed my heart. i felt the same way about the speech and was even more disappointed at palin's speech. eventhough unedrstand the nature of the beast, as a woman and a mother, i was insulted. this is truly becoming a society of the haves and the have nots with the majority stuck in the middlei have not experienced everything you have. but my struggles are eerily similar. the only difference is that i have children and when i started my family i was at the beginning stages of my career.

the fact is and you said this, politicians in general are not tuned in. as we have seen with the gop some are less tuned in. after listening to c-span, there are so many people who are buying into this mess that it is scary. for me, there are aspects about the candidates that i like. i admire mccain and his military experience. he has appeared to have a moderate viewpoint on some issues and that is ok with me. as much as i dont know about palin, she does have that tenacity and fire without seemingly mannish. she also delivered a great speech and seems to exude a level of confidence that is always nice to see. i like obama because he did move up the traditional way, in some respects and eventhough he is a politician, i feel he believes that he can make the difference. him being a man of color is wonderful. when my son gets older, he will learn about what he can aspire to.

the best thing i know i can do is to stay informed. encourage everyone to vote. stay connected.

if i can offer some encouragement, DO NOT GIVE UP. no matter what. think outside the box. for me, i am trying to be as creative as i can in making career choices. my priority is my family. as far as i am concerned, my loans will be there and will probably be there until i die. so i do what i need to do and pray it all works out.

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

Last night, my boyfriend and I watched McCain's speech together. It was an OK speech - I'm getting annoyed with the 9/11 references and so much of his argument revolving around his time as a POW about 40 years ago, but it was still OK. I don't dislike McCain...I just like Obama more. My boyfriend, on the other hand, has admired McCain for years and traditionally votes straight Republican ticket.

So we were watching the speech, feeling kinda "Meh" about it, until it got to this part:



After hearing that, the two of us wanted to throw something heavy at him. These are the same words George Bush said back in 2002 or 2003, and he was off base then and now McCain is off base. It was a huge disappointment to us to hear that McCain is so out of touch with the American worker.

I was laid off from my first job out of college in 2001, then again from a nonprofit in 2002. I graduated from a Tier 1 university, had big student loans to prove it, and yet I couldn't get a professional job to pay the bills...it seemed like no one I knew could. At that time, not even the temp agencies had jobs to offer. I remember coming home one night after spending some time at the "work source" office and turning on the State of the Union address to hear George Bush tell America that people like me needed to go to community college to learn the skills necessary for today's jobs. And I remember the tremendous sinking feeling I had of realizing that he truly did not understand what was really going on in this country...and that he didn't even know people like me existed.

If George Bush and John McCain would go into unemployment offices around the country, they would learn a lot. I have to think that they haven't done this, because if they had, they would know that unemployment offices today are filled with many white collar, educated professionals in addition to the factory workers that I think they're thinking of. In 2002, when I was called in randomly to sit through a "training" at the unemployment office, the office was filled with professionals with bachelor's degrees, MBAs and, yes, PhDs! The instructors were ashamed to be "instructing" people who just days or weeks before had been at the top of their ladders to look into community college classes. They knew that their offices had nothing to support us.

At the same time, my boyfriend, who has an engineering degree from Michigan and an MBA in Finance from a good school, had been unemployed for several months. He was laid off and replaced by engineering contractors from Russia, here on work visas. He was on unemployment for a while, but then it ran out, and President Bush decided not to expand federal unemployment benefits. He took a job in another field, and moved around the country trying to get back into engineering. A few years ago, he finally got his dream job at Boeing...nearly 15 years after he graduated with his aerospace engineering degree.

So I would like to ask John McCain, What are these jobs that haven't and won't disappear? Manufactering is already gone, and without major tax penalties to corporations they won't be coming back. And now science and technology jobs are either being offshored or taken by foreign contractors here on visas. We graduate people with tech and engineering degrees, but then don't offer them the jobs...because we can bring in people from India or Russia that will work for less. Even software engineering is being done in India now.

What kind of a job is a community college supposed to secure us in the future economy? Because right now the only thing I see our economy supporting is the service sector. Some business services, such as my field of marketing, and lawyers, will stay here, but even my company just recently sent our accounting/billing overseas. Are we supposed to be a country of bartenders, waiters/waitresses, hotel clerks, medical assistants and massage therapists?

I think what John McCain and George Bush really meant was that factory workers who lost their jobs because Americans are obsessed with cheap crap should go to community colleges to learn computer programming or something like that. But - DUH - that's not a stable choice anymore either! What ARE the jobs that will stay here?!

[Trey_P-I_47]

I want to see the reactions to this list that I just stumbled across, can any Obama supporters discredit anything from this list. It seems to be well documented, and I thought it made some good points.

The mainstream media continue to deteriorate into a world of slime and sleaze with their assault on Gov. Sarah Palin, the Republican candidate for vice president. They are picking up on lies manufactured in the blogosphere by hate groups such as the Daily Kos, and are transmuting rumors, speculations and outright lies into front-page smears disguised as hard news. As usual, the New York Times (September 2, 2008) has led the way with two front page storie s and a third on a full-page inside. The journalism of the New York Times now makes the supermarket tabloids look good by comparison.

Yes, the biased, slime merchants at the New York Times, the Philadelphia Inquirer and the rest of the mainstream media have spent more time vetting and investigating the 17-year old pregnant daughter of Sarah Palin then they have investigating Sen. Barack Obama, a candidate for president. They have spent more time investigating a 22-year old DUI incident of Mrs. Palin's husband than they have spent investigating Sen. Obama's illegal use of cocaine and his admitted boozing and his long-time association with terrorists and racists. They give Obama a free pass but look at Palin's daughter as if the daughter is on the ticket.

Former Sen. Fred Thompson was right on target when he said the mainstream media and its partner, the Democratic Party, are so in fear of defeat after the announcement of the McCain/Palin ticket that they are going ever deeper into the journalistic sewer to discredit Gov. Palin. I keep saying the mainstream media has hit rock bottom, but it conti nues to sink lower into the journalistic sewer. They are now clearly so devoid of journalistic principles, honesty and fairness that they will do anything. They are at bottom and can't sink lower.

Now here's 22 reasons to vote against Mr. Obama and for McCain/Palin.

1. Sen. Obama gives flowery speeches on change and hope. But he's part of one of the most corrupt political machines of all time. And instead of fighting and trying to reform the corrupt Chicago Cook County political machine, he used it to rise to power. When reformers tried to fight it, Mr. Obama refused to help them and actually was instrumental in defeating the reform movement. He preaches a new kind of politics but supports and uses one of the worst political machines in the U.S.

2. He led the battle in the Illinois legislature to assure that born-alive infants would not be treated as persons and would not be entitled to medical care. Instead, if Sen. Obama had his way, such babies born alive after a botched abortion would be left to die, thus legalizing what appears to be infanticide and murder.

3. When he first responded to Russia's invasion of Georgia, he said that aggression was wrong, but the U.S. would be in a better position if we set a good example. Thus he made it clear he was drawing a moral equivalence between Russia's aggression and the U.S.'s liberation of Iraq, which had violated 17 United Nations resolutions. This reaction alone, suggests not merely bad judgment but apparently no judgment at all. Then after giving it more thought, his second response was turning the matter over to the United Nations. That of course was a stupid idea as Russia has a veto in the Security Council.

4. He sat in the pews of the Trinity Church in Chicago, listening to a notorious racist, bigot and anti-American, Rev. Jeremiah "God Damn America" Wright, without a peep of protest. He did not leave the church until Rev. Wright said Obama is just another politician who says what he has to say. And that move was dictated by political considerations, not any moral outrage.

5. He started his political career in a fund-raiser in the home of William Ayers, an unrepentant terrorist and anti-American. He still hasn't denounced him but says Mr. Ayers is now a member of the Chicago Democratic mainstream. He still maintains a friendly relationship with him, has served on a board with him, and has participated in speaking panels with him.

6. He refused to wear a flag on his lapel, claiming he viewed it as a symbol of false patriotism employed after 9/11. He started wearing the flag only when he was embarrassed into doing so under political pressure. At that time he suddenly started ending his speeches with the words "God Bless America."

7. He got an earmark appropriation from Congress for his wife's employer, the University of Chicago Medical Center. When questioned on the appearance of conflict of interest, he said there was nothing improper about that but he should have gone to his fellow Illinois Sen. Dick Durban, to put the appropriation through. In other words, if there is an appearance of conflict of interest, you should hide it somehow instead of avoiding what creates such appearance. This is a pattern: saying one thing and doing the opposite. When he started to run for the presidency, he stopped putting in earmarks. As is his usual pattern, he started doing the right thing for election purposes only. So judge him by his record, not moves that are merely campaign calculation.

8. He favors increasing the capital gains tax, even though he admitted it will not raise tax revenue, but cut it instead. He justifies such an irrational move, out of what he calls a sense of fairness. That would mean less tax revenue, higher deficits and less incentive for saving, investment, capital formation, economic growth, and creation.

9. He called for negotiations without preconditions with the Ahmadinejad of Iran, Chavez of Venzuela, and Castro of Cuba. Even Senator Obama recognized the folly of this idea, so he backed off of it after an explosion of criticism. He thinks sweet talk solves all problems, and when a problem calls for something beyond sweet talk, he 's stumped. He speaks loudly and often, but carries a toothpick-size stick which he is afraid to use. Another example of Mr. Obama's naiveté was his comment that Iran is a small country not to be feared.

10. He opposed the surge, said it would fail, and even after it was almost universally acclaimed to be a success, he refuses to admit the surge succeed ed.

11. He called for withdrawal from Iraq, in effect, calling for retreat and defeat, which would have turned over the Middle East and much of the world's oil supplies to terrorists and their supporters in Iran.

12. He associated with and made a land deal with convicted felon, Tony Rezko, even knowing he was under serious investigation. He admitted this was what he called a boneheaded mistake. Mr. Obama seems incapable of judging his associates, as his close and friendly encounters with the hate-America and terrorist crowd suggests. Even an otherwise friendly biographer, said he is at home with the hate-America types.

13. He claims he will bring all sides together but he has never shown any signs or symptoms of bipartisanship. His record is that of a far-left liberal, the most liberal of any member of the U.S. Senate. He goes down the party line, and never reaches across the aisle.

14. He claims he will bring change to Washington, but picks a long-term Washington insider, Sen. Joe Biden, who has been in the Senate for decades, and is rated the third most liberal in the U.S. Senate. He claims he'll be the agent of change, but in his acceptance speech he catalogs the tired left-wing Democratic agenda, that has been regurgitated every four years for decades. He talks change but dishes up only the old liberal dishes, which have been rejected by voters many times from McGovern to Carter, and which have failed when implementation was attempted. If Mr. Obama wins the White House, he is likely to have a veto proof Congress, which mean all of his left-loony proposals would probably become law. Electoral history suggests Americans don't go for such unrestrained power. Beware of an Obama/Pelosi/Reid triumvirate that would bring us radical liberalism in its worst form.

15. He says he wants to bring us energy independence but refuses to drill and extract our huge reserves, greater than those of Saudi Arabia. He wants us to check our tire pressure instead of drilling. Give me a break! He also advises everyone to tune-up their cars, even though most cars no longer need tune-ups.

16. He never sticks with a job. For example, when he became senator he started writing his book. Then within two years of becoming a senator, he started running for president. It is not surprising that he has no legislative accomplishments. This has been the pattern of his entire career. He never sticks with anything long enough to chalk up significant achievements. That's why when asked about his accomplishments, his supporters seem to be stumped. Dean Barnett, in an article in the Weekly Standard (Sept. 1, 2008), entitled "Would You Hire Barack Obama? The resume of a chronic underachiever," writes, "You'd have to conclude that Obama's failure to commit himself to any career sufficiently to excel at it suggests some unexplained restlessness." I'd say it suggests he's a dilitante, who flits from one project to another, but never stays long enough to deliver a satisfactory end product.

17. As talk show host Michael Medved has pointed out, the people vouching for him at the Democratic National Convention were mainly relatives, such as his wife and brother-in-law. There were not major figures vouching for him, because they could not vouch for a classic empty-suit. Even Hillary Clinton, in her convention endorsement speech, said Democrats must support him, but in no way vouched for his character or judgment. Contrast that with the people at the Republican National Convention who vouched for Sen. McCain - Sen. Joe Lieberman and former Sen. Fred Thompson.

18. To bolster his foreign policy credentials, he picked Sen. Joe Biden as vice president. Sen. Biden voted for the war in Iraq, which vote Sen. Obama views as the symbol of bad judgment. So even Sen. Obama admits Sen. Biden ha bad judgment. Sen. Biden also comes up with wacky ideas of his own such as splitting Iraq, a sovereign nation, into three parts for the Kurds, Shias, and Sunnis. He also voted against the first Gulf War, even after Iraq had invaded Kuwait and threatened Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Middle East. I'd think most would consider that the height of bad judgment. He opposed the surge. He opposed Reagan's build-up to fight international communism, so his bad record is long and unbroken. Biden has judgment bad enough to match that of Sen. Obama's.

19. He flip-flops on matters that suggest he has no principles except the old Chicago machine principle of do anything you have to do to get elected. He promised to take public financing, something that the great reformer and change artist claimed to be committed to. Then when he saw it was to his political advantage to stay with totally private contributions, as that would bring in more money, he went back on his promise and rejected public funding. He said that his wide array of contributors to his campaign made his approach into public financing, one of his more nonsensical pieces of logic. He think if he uses sufficient oratorical powers he can make two and two equal ten, or private financing equal public financing.

20. He constantly uses such expressions as, "I would be glad to debate my opponent on that issue anytime, anywhere." But that is just for oratorical effect. In practice, he refused Sen. McCain's offer of a town meeting every week to debate the issues. He is clearly afraid of unscripted sessions. If he is not smart enough to go off the teleprompter and script, he is not smart enough to be president.

When he participated in the Saddleback debate with Pastor Rick Warren, he demonstrated again he doesn't make sense when confronted with tough questions without the answers on a script. When asked when does life begin, he said that was above his pay-grade. If that question is above his pay grade so is the presidency of the United States.

21.He would like voters to view him as a man of great political courage, but he has a documented record of political cowardice. For example, when in the Illinois legislature, he voted "present" over 100 times and was well known for taking that route, of neither a yes or no vote. Present is a classic sitting on the fence and waiting to find out which way the wind will blow. As William Kristol of the Weekly Standard (Sept. 1, 2008) has pointed out, " Has he shunned the easy path or broken with the conventional liberal pieties of those around him? Has he taken on his own party on a major issue? Nope."

22. Mr. Obama bases his campaign on his superior judgment, and that in turn is based on his speech against the war in Iraq. Of course, he never made a vote against the war, as at the time he was in the Illinois legislature, not the U.S. Senate. He gave the speech at an anti-war rally in the liberal Hyde Park section in Chicago. But votes are more important than speeches. And since he's been in the Senate, he's been wrong on every issue related to Iraq. These mistaken positions were summed up in an article by Emery in the Weekly Standard (Sept.1, 2008) entitled "Misfortunes of War: Success in Iraq Confounds the Democrats." It isn't easy to be wrong on every vote and pronouncement on Iraq, but don't underestimate Sen. Obama's ineptness in the foreign policy area. Mr. Emery writes: "He claimed that the Anbar Awakening took place as a result of Democrats' congressional victories, but it began in September 2006, two months before before the voting took place. He opposed not only the troop surge, but also the strategic changes that took place along with it, that did so much to enable the victory. He said the American military had noting to do with the Anbar Awakening or with the retreat of the Sadr militia, something denied by the Iraqi military and by the Iraqi Sunnis themselves. He was also wrong in his predictions that none of this would occur."

Sen. Obama not only has judgment bad enough to make him wrong on every foreign policy question, but he also has the knack of picking advisors and close associates who have a strong record of being wrong. For example, his choice for vice president, Sen. Biden, and one of the senators that accompanied him on his trip to Iraq, Sen. Chuck Hagel, introduced a resolution in opposition to the buildup that was the surge that turned the tide in Iraq.

Sen. Obama's inexperience in foreign policy is perhaps his most dangerous deficiency. But don't underestimate his ability to wreck our economy, destroy the incentives for entrepreneurs to take risks and build jobs, and to wreck our health care delivery system.

[DaemonSeid]

I fthis was black jack...you would have failed.....I will see your 22 by asking you six

Now...we all know that McCain has a habit of trotting his POW out in front of the public like it's his show horse....so....let's bring a few things to light.

Some POWs have thier own views of McCain:

http://www.usvetdsp.com/aug08/mccain_unfit.htm

http://www.powermusicinc.com/

1. Why was he allowed to crash 5 planes and continue to fly?

2. Since The McCain Bill has been enacted, what is his success rate in bringing POWs home?

3. How much did he really fight back against his captors and how much did he comply with them knowing he may have been getting preferential treatment?

4. Why would a man who parades his POW status, also block an investigation aiming to bring others home?

5. What bills have McCain shot down (no pun intended) that would have helped vets educationally and socially? Why?

6. Why did McCain vote against increasing medical services for veterans, funding to improve veteran medical facilities, and veteran outpatient care?

and by the way...if that 22 point list is something you stumbled on, you may want to give proper credit to where it's due and leave us a link since it is not your work and since (if it's from another website) GC requires it.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by Trey_P-I_47

Now here's 22 reasons to vote against Mr. Obama and for McCain/Palin.

1. It's politics and they all do it. This reference is pretty vague though and therefore, difficult to discuss with any intelligence.

2. I have said repeatedly that I would have been completely in, fully in support of the federal bill that everybody supported - which was to say --that you should provide assistance to any infant that was born - even if it was as a consequence of an induced abortion. That was not the bill that was presented at the state level. What that bill also was doing was trying to undermine Roe vs. Wade. By the way, we also had a bill, a law already in place in Illinois that insured life saving treatment was given to infants.

So for people to suggest that I and the Illinois medical society, so Illinois doctors were somehow in favor of withholding life saving support from an infant born alive is ridiculous. It defies commonsense and it defies imagination and for people to keep on pushing this is offensive and it's an example of the kind of politics that we have to get beyond. It's one thing for people to disagree with me about the issue of choice, it's another thing for people to out and out misrepresent my positions repeatedly, even after they know that they're wrong. And that's what's been happening.That is a direct quote from Obama during an interview with CBS News correspondent David Brody http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/429328.aspx

3. When he first responded to Russia's invasion of Georgia, he said that aggression was wrong, but the U.S. would be in a better position if we set a good example. "I think it is important at this point for all sides to show restraint and to stop this armed conflict," Obama said. http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Story?id=5552954&page=1

4. He sat in the pews of the Trinity Church in Chicago, listening to a notorious racist, bigot and anti-American, Rev. Jeremiah "God Damn America" Wright, without a peep of protest. He did not leave the church until Rev. Wright said Obama is just another politician who says what he has to say. And that move was dictated by political considerations, not any moral outrage.Hundreds of thousands of Americans sit in the pews of churches and dont agree with everything that their pastor/priest/minister is saying. As a "cafeteria Catholic", I can't condemn someone for that. My church says you can't use birth control and I think that's a bunch of hooey, but I still go to that church. Personally, I've yet to find a church that thinks exactly like I do, so I continue going to the church that I was raised in.

5. He started his political career in a fund-raiser in the home of William Ayers, an unrepentant terrorist and anti-American. He still hasn't denounced him but says Mr. Ayers is now a member of the Chicago Democratic mainstream. He still maintains a friendly relationship with him, has served on a board with him, and has participated in speaking panels with him.William Ayers was his neighbor and held an event to introduce him to the neighborhood as a candidate for the Illinois senate in 2001. He contributed $200 to his campaign in 2001. William Ayers was never convicted of anything and is now a well respected professor. The bizarre things he was involved with were many years ago, during a time of extreme civil unrest. The two of them served on a board together, hardly a strong connection. www.snopes.com

6. He refused to wear a flag on his lapel, claiming he viewed it as a symbol of false patriotism employed after 9/11. He started wearing the flag only when he was embarrassed into doing so under political pressure. At that time he suddenly started ending his speeches with the words "God Bless America." "I'm less concerned with what you're wearing on your lapel than what's in your heart," Obama said Thursday while campaigning in Independence, Iowa.

"You show your patriotism by how you treat your fellow Americans, especially those who serve. And you show your patriotism by being true to your values and ideals. And that's what we have to lead with, our values and ideals," Obama said. Obama is not alone in not wearing the Stars and Stripes pin. Most of the candidates do not wear them. The one big exception: former New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, who is rarely without one.

7. He got an earmark appropriation from Congress for his wife's employer, the University of Chicago Medical Center. When questioned on the appearance of conflict of interest, he said there was nothing improper about that but he should have gone to his fellow Illinois Sen. Dick Durban, to put the appropriation through. In other words, if there is an appearance of conflict of interest, you should hide it somehow instead of avoiding what creates such appearance. This is a pattern: saying one thing and doing the opposite. When he started to run for the presidency, he stopped putting in earmarks. As is his usual pattern, he started doing the right thing for election purposes only. So judge him by his record, not moves that are merely campaign calculation.So, as long as he is a Senator, the Chicago Medical Center should not have any appropriations when almost all large public hospitals who serve the indigent get them?

8. He favors increasing the capital gains tax, even though he admitted it will not raise tax revenue, but cut it instead. He justifies such an irrational move, out of what he calls a sense of fairness. That would mean less tax revenue, higher deficits and less incentive for saving, investment, capital formation, economic growth, and creation.“The top capital-gains rate for families making more than $250,000 would return to 20% -- the lowest rate that existed in the 1990s and the rate President Bush proposed in his 2001 tax cut. A 20% rate is almost a third lower than the rate President Reagan set in 1986,” wrote Obama advisors Jason Furman and Austan Goolsbee in Thursday’s Wall Street Journal. It will be eliminated for small business and entrepreneurs

9. He called for negotiations without preconditions with the Ahmadinejad of Iran, Chavez of Venzuela, and Castro of Cuba. I would be willing to initiate such talks with leaders of countries adversarial to the United States. There would be a lot of preparation. The first steps would not be to pre-judge all the items on the list.

The freedom of the Cuban people would be my top goal with President Raul Castro. As well as the release of political prisoners, democracy and the freedom of religious worship.

One of the obvious high priorities in my talks with President Hugo Chavez would be the fermentation of anti-American sentiment in Latin America, his support of FARC in Colombia and other issues he would want to talk about. It is important to understand that ignoring these countries has not led to improved behavior on their part and it has not served our national security interests.

There needs to be a shift in foreign politics and return to traditional foreign politics that were supported by both Republicans and Democrats in the past.http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/new...r-pacheco.htmlSen. Barack Obama said Friday the use of military force should not be taken off the table when dealing with Iran, which he called "a threat to all of us." www.suntimes.com

10. He opposed the surge, said it would fail, and even after it was almost universally acclaimed to be a success, he refuses to admit the surge succeed ed.OBAMA: If you listen to what I've said, and I'll repeat it right here on this show, I think that there's no doubt that the violence is down. I believe that that is a testimony to the troops that were sent and General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker. I think that the surge has succeeded in ways that nobody anticipated, by the way, including President Bush and the other supporters. It has gone very well, partly because of the Anbar situation and the Sunni awakening, partly because of the Shia military. Look...
OBAMA: Hold on a second, Bill. If you look at the debate that was taking place, we had gone through five years of mismanagement of this war that I thought was disastrous. And the president wanted to double down and continue on an open-ended policy that did not create the kinds of pressure on the Iraqis to take responsibility and reconcile. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,417563,00.html

11. He called for withdrawal from Iraq, in effect, calling for retreat and defeat, which would have turned over the Middle East and much of the world's oil supplies to terrorists and their supporters in Iran.He has repeatedly called for a TIMELINE and a PLAN to withdraw so that the Iraqis would begin to take responsibility. I agree with that!

12. He associated with and made a land deal with convicted felon, Tony Rezko, A few months after Obama became a U.S. senator, he and Rezko's wife, Rita, bought adjacent pieces of property from a doctor in Chicago's Kenwood neighborhood -- a deal that has dogged Obama the last two years. The doctor sold the mansion to Obama for $1.65 million -- $300,000 below the asking price. Rezko's wife paid full price -- $625,000 -- for the adjacent vacant lot. The deals closed in June 2005. Six months later, Obama paid Rezko's wife $104,500 for a strip of her land, so he could have a bigger yard. At the time, it had been widely reported that Tony Rezko was under federal investigation. Questioned later about the timing of the Rezko deal, Obama called it "boneheaded" because people might think the Rezkos had done him a favor

13. He claims he will bring all sides together but he has never shown any signs or symptoms of bipartisanship. His record is that of a far-left liberal, the most liberal of any member of the U.S. Senate. He goes down the party line, and never reaches across the aisle.I like that in a person, however, it's not that true.
Obama actually has worked across party lines on a couple of bills since he won his U.S. Senate seat back in 2004.

Specifically, Obama worked with Republican Sen. Dick Lugar to get the Lugar-Obama bill passed. According to Obama's Senate website, the bill "enhances U.S. efforts to destroy conventional weapons stockpiles and to detect and interdict weapons and materials of mass destruction throughout the world."

In addition, Obama worked with Oklahoma Republican Sen. Tom Coburn on the Coburn-Obama bill. The bill set up a database that tracks where federal dollars are being spent and which contractors receive federal funding. http://factbeat.com/get_story.php?id=263

14. he catalogs the tired left-wing Democratic agenda, that has been regurgitated every four years for decades. He talks change but dishes up only the old liberal dishes, which have been rejected by voters many times from McGovern to Carter, and which have failed when implementation was attempted. If Mr. Obama wins the White House, he is likely to have a veto proof Congress, which mean all of his left-loony proposals would probably become law. That's good to me! I'm a liberal, I'm ready for some liberal power

15. He says he wants to bring us energy independence but refuses to drill and extract our huge reserves, greater than those of Saudi Arabia. He wants us to check our tire pressure instead of drilling. Give me a break! He also advises everyone to tune-up their cars, even though most cars no longer need tune-ups.Apparently your definition of a tune up is different than mine. New air filter, fuel filter, spark plugs, etc... all part of a tune up in my book. Sorry but I totally agree that our energy independence needs to come from alternative fuel sources not from more drilling.

16. He never sticks with a job. For example, when he became senator he started writing his book. Many politicians write books while in office, that's not a different job, it's an additional job. If you have the opportunity to move up, you have to take new jobs, this is life.

17. As talk show host Michael Medved has pointed out, the people vouching for him at the Democratic National Convention were mainly relatives, such as his wife and brother-in-law. Edward Kennedy is a relative? Susan Eisenhower is a relative?
Who says Barack Obama doesn't have what it takes to be president? Turns out, he's a distant cousin of both Dick Cheney and George Bush.
The vice president's wife, Lynne Cheney, announced her discovery yesterday while hawking her new book, "Blue Skies, No Fences," on MSNBC

18. To bolster his foreign policy credentials, he picked Sen. Joe Biden as vice president. I like Biden. I would have voted for him a primary.. oh wait, I did, a couple times in previous elections. Not a valid argument to me.

19. He promised to take public financing, something that the great reformer and change artist claimed to be committed to.Candidates who accept public financing receive $85 million but cannot accept additional contributions; Obama raised $35 million just last month, suggesting he could raise much more than McCain in the general election. I don't blame him for changing his mind on this. Sounds like sour grapes on McCain's part because he can't raise as much money?

20. Debates: McCain, the presumptive Republican nominee, had originally pushed for 10 townhall meetings between June and August, an offer widely seen as an effort to counter Democrat Obama’s likely advantage in raising campaign funds. Obama’s camp has countered with an offer of two townhall meetings between now and November to go along with the three presidential debates traditionally held after the parties’ nominating conventions in August and September. http://www.youdecide2008.com/2008/06...-over-debates/


21.Present Votes: Mr. Obama’s aides and some allies dispute the characterization that a present vote is tantamount to ducking an issue. They said Mr. Obama cast 4,000 votes in the Illinois Senate and used the present vote to protest bills that he believed had been drafted unconstitutionally or as part of a broader legislative strategy. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/20/us...s/20obama.html

22. And since he's been in the Senate, he's been wrong on every issue related to Iraq. If the Republicans had been right, we wouldn't still be there, would we???? Had they gone in with a REAL plan to take Saddam out and restructure, we wouldn't still be there!!!!!!!! Iraq has lasted longer than our involvement in WWII for crying out loud.

Go Obama It's quite easy to copy and paste someone's web page to us without doing any real research of your own. I did it for you this time.

[Drolefille]

Daemonseid, look up the planes thing. Be pro-Obama without spreading slander/libel.

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactchec...ve_planes.html

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Daemonseid, look up the planes thing. Be pro-Obama without spreading slander/libel.

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactchec...ve_planes.html

Drole...my bad thank you...

trey...maybe you are still missing the point I was making...he trots out his POW record for the sympathy while there are records that reflects APATHY to fellow veterens and POWs.



How do you want us to feel sympathy for your struggle when you haven't addressed that same struggle that others went thru during your time in office?