Canadian Immigrants Not Learning English (or French)

[Taualumna]

VANCOUVER — Bimal Kular is busy ironing crisp, white napkins while eight other women scurry around preparing tantalizing sauces, homemade cheese and a sizzling oil, onion and cumin mixture before hungry diners arrive at one of Vancouver's most renowned restaurants.

I know.....flame war waiting to happen...

Globe and Mail via Canadian Press

What's really sad is the Canadian born Grade 2 kid who is taking English as a Second Language (ESL) in school. There's no mention on whether he spent some time in the old country or not, but if he didn't, it really shows how schools have changed in the past 25-30 years (I was one of those kids. I started kindergarten in the mid-80s only knowing a few words - not enough to even ask if I can go to the bathroom. But I caught up fast...by Halloween, I was just like everyone else). Really, a kid in Grade 2 has been in school for over two years, including kindergarten. Kid should NOT be in ESL. You might say that the family may live in a neighbourhood that is predominantly Punjabi-speaking or whatnot, but it doesn't sound like it, since the grandmother says she'd like to be able to speak to her neighbours.

[carnation]

I started the year with about 20 ESOL students on my caseload. Over half were American-born and I was mad! I aggravated the admin by fast-tracking over half of them out but I feel that if they were born here and they still can't pass the ESOL exit test after 6-7 years of school, they're probably special ed.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Taualumna

What's really sad is the Canadian born Grade 2 kid who is taking English as a Second Language (ESL) in school. There's no mention on whether he spent some time in the old country or not, but if he didn't, it really shows how schools have changed in the past 25-30 years (I was one of those kids. I started kindergarten in the mid-80s only knowing a few words - not enough to even ask if I can go to the bathroom. But I caught up fast...by Halloween, I was just like everyone else). Really, a kid in Grade 2 has been in school for over two years, including kindergarten. Kid should NOT be in ESL. You might say that the family may live in a neighbourhood that is predominantly Punjabi-speaking or whatnot, but it doesn't sound like it, since the grandmother says she'd like to be able to speak to her neighbours.

Tau you were privileged though, and from a school system that actually had funding to have good instructor to student ratios as well as time as resources to help these kids adapt - a problem that is made all the more difficult if the parents have little to no command of English.

My youngest brother teaches kindergarten at two different schools with high populations of new immigrants, and I know how much he struggles with trying to help the kids until they are old enough to enter ESL (they usually don't enter until the 2nd or 3rd grade now). On top of that the federal cutbacks to ESL eduction programmes to provinces with high populations of new immigrants, as well as the deregulation of education ESL programmes that used to be government run, has only produced a system in which the onus and financial burden is now on the student - basically they get a smattering of ESL classes for a grade or two, then if they want to learn more they gotta fork over cash to go to one of the many specialized schools now... and adults have to basically pay to learn as well.

With no more free government run language and culture programs the only options to learn English is to go to one of the private schools or colleges that charge a fair amount for - with this monetary "hurdle" of sorts no in place many immigrants forgo learning all but the most basic of English skills. However it's perversely better in Quebec, with their draconian "Language Laws" the Provincial and Municipal governments still run many basic and intermediate language programmes.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Tau you were privileged though, and from a school system that actually had funding to have good instructor to student ratios as well as time as resources to help these kids adapt - a problem that is made all the more difficult if the parents have little to no command of English.

My youngest brother teaches kindergarten at two different schools with high populations of new immigrants, and I know how much he struggles with trying to help the kids until they are old enough to enter ESL (they usually don't enter until the 2nd or 3rd grade now). On top of that the federal cutbacks to ESL eduction programmes to provinces with high populations of new immigrants, as well as the deregulation of education ESL programmes that used to be government run, has only produced a system in which the onus and financial burden is now on the student - basically they get a smattering of ESL classes for a grade or two, then if they want to learn more they gotta fork over cash to go to one of the many specialized schools now... and adults have to basically pay to learn as well.

With no more free government run language and culture programs the only options to learn English is to go to one of the private schools or colleges that charge a fair amount for - with this monetary "hurdle" of sorts no in place many immigrants forgo learning all but the most basic of English skills. However it's perversely better in Quebec, with their draconian "Language Laws" the Provincial and Municipal governments still run many basic and intermediate language programmes.

You don't think you'd learn English best through immersion anyway? Sure, it's going to be hard to actually learn the academic content in English until you speak it, but for learning a foreign language isn't having to use it and speak it one of the best ways?

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by carnation

I started the year with about 20 ESOL students on my caseload. Over half were American-born and I was mad! I aggravated the admin by fast-tracking over half of them out but I feel that if they were born here and they still can't pass the ESOL exit test after 6-7 years of school, they're probably special ed.

Well, it really depends on whether ESOL is really teaching English to speakers of other language or whether it's actually being done as supplementary instruction in Spanish with modification of assignments to the point of not really requiring much.

I agree that if the students are really getting ESOL, then your claim is actually really generous in the number of years it ought to take.

[carnation]

Oh, here's the worst part: over half of them are on the honor roll, yet they continued to languish in ESOL because of that weird ACCESS test. I think that lots of American kids wouldn't pass it--they have to remember all these instructions in English and react to them.

Most were still in because their elementary teachers felt they still needed it. Okay...American-born, honor roll, great band and/or chorus members and they still need those classes? Creo que no!

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by carnation

Oh, here's the worst part: over half of them are on the honor roll, yet they continued to languish in ESOL because of that weird ACCESS test. I think that lots of American kids wouldn't pass it--they have to remember all these instructions in English and react to them.

Most were still in because their elementary teachers felt they still needed it. Okay...American-born, honor roll, great band and/or chorus members and they still need those classes? Creo que no!

Your program is probably better than some of the ones I've seen (my present school's program is pretty good), but I think at a lot of schools, people are very reluctant to take away anything that gives a kid an academic crutch. "Why not give a kid a chance for a study class, modification, and small group testing?," I think is how they look at it.

(and then there was the one ESOL teacher who used to let them cheat/ helped them cheat when they took regular class tests in her room, but I'm sure that's the exception. Seriously, she used to let them look up answers. ETA: I don't mean standardized test; I just mean that the history teachers basically busted her letting kids take content tests open history book.)

[Taualumna]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

You don't think you'd learn English best through immersion anyway? Sure, it's going to be hard to actually learn the academic content in English until you speak it, but for learning a foreign language isn't having to use it and speak it one of the best ways?

They often can't. Many of these kids go to schools where the majority of the students come from communities that speak the same language, so the kids would not be speaking English in school. Even if the schools were more diverse, there usually will be other kids who come from the same ethnicity and speak the same language, so the kids will only hang out with each other. Things have changed a great deal in the last 15-25 years in cities like Toronto and Vancouver.

[SOPi_Jawbreaker]

Originally Posted by Taualumna

I know.....flame war waiting to happen...

Globe and Mail via Canadian Press

What's really sad is the Canadian born Grade 2 kid who is taking English as a Second Language (ESL) in school. There's no mention on whether he spent some time in the old country or not, but if he didn't, it really shows how schools have changed in the past 25-30 years (I was one of those kids. I started kindergarten in the mid-80s only knowing a few words - not enough to even ask if I can go to the bathroom. But I caught up fast...by Halloween, I was just like everyone else). Really, a kid in Grade 2 has been in school for over two years, including kindergarten. Kid should NOT be in ESL. You might say that the family may live in a neighbourhood that is predominantly Punjabi-speaking or whatnot, but it doesn't sound like it, since the grandmother says she'd like to be able to speak to her neighbours.

I came to the US when I was 2. I also started kindergarten in the mid-80's. I was in ESL from 1st grade until about halfway through 3rd grade. I took regular classes with all the other kids, but I would leave class for a one-hour one-on-one session with the ESL teacher everyday. I knew enough English to get around and to understand what the regular teacher was teaching. But I was in ESL to get extra help with pronunciation, grammar, idioms, and vocabulary.

[alum]

I find it interesting that full or partial-immersion programs are touted and sought after by native English speakers wanting their kids to become bilingual or at least comfortable in the language. And yet, immersion isn't considered the best way to educate a new immigrant.

My father emigrated to the US at the age of 8. His siblings were 7 and 5. Back then, there was no ESOL. The student was put in a classroom and forced to speak and learn the language. All 3 siblings were completely fluent within a year and do not speak English with an accent. My grandparents learned English (they knew a little when they arrived here as adults) but always spoke with an accent. They still spoke their native language at home and the siblings that were born in the US are also bilingual.

[Taualumna]

Originally Posted by alum

I find it interesting that full or partial-immersion programs are touted and sought after by native English speakers wanting their kids to become bilingual or at least comfortable in the language. And yet, immersion isn't considered the best way to educate a new immigrant.

Probably one of those PC things. It's (more) okay to learn what's considered a minority langauge in your area than the other way around. Some people feel that immersing immigrants in English may be taking their culture away (yeah, I know....kinda , IMHO)

[FSUZeta]

does anyone know of any other countries that have special classes(esol-esque) to aid the immigrants to that country learn the language?

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by carnation

I started the year with about 20 ESOL students on my caseload. Over half were American-born and I was mad! I aggravated the admin by fast-tracking over half of them out but I feel that if they were born here and they still can't pass the ESOL exit test after 6-7 years of school, they're probably special ed.

When I taught ESL in elementary school, I tried to exit several of my kids. An administrator finally said to me that it came down to money: The more ESL and Bilingual classes we had, the more money we received from the state and fed.

Also, you would not believe the number of students in bilingual programs who were born here in the States.

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

does anyone know of any other countries that have special classes(esol-esque) to aid the immigrants to that country learn the language?

I'm not sure what they do in school, but a good friend just moved to the Netherlands after marrying her Dutch husband. She has to take three years of Dutch classes if she wants to gain full rights to stuff over there. She just completed her first year and now must take a language test so she can try to get her driver's license.

[FSUZeta]

that's interesting peppy,

do you know if your friends classes are paid for by the government or if she must pay for them?