Class divisions among Black people

[Blacksocialite]

I posted a story of my blog today from The Philadelphia Daily News that reported on a Pew poll about Black people.

According to the poll, the biggest divide in Black America is more rooted in class division than anything else.

Do you think this is true?

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by Blacksocialite

I posted a story of my blog today from The Philadelphia Daily News that reported on a Pew poll about Black people.

According to the poll, the biggest divide in Black America is more rooted in class division than anything else.

Do you think this is true?

Some of this is true, some I disagree with their stats. But it is an opinion poll which is inherently hard to gauge.

[WenD08]

i think it's true. class is a real issue in our community just as skin color is still an issue, IMO. i feel there is an "Us and them" mentality amongst us.

[Little32]

Is there really an "Us versus Them" mentality? I don't see it, but that may be because the people that I hang around with recognize that class is so messy and really difficult to define.

For instance, I have an complicated relationship to class. I am rather highly educated, but I do not have a good deal of money. I come from a long line of educated folks, all of whom worked "prestigious" jobs and were well connected in the community (to hear one uncle tell it, I have a great great aunt who practically ran, socially and economically, the south side of Chicago in the early 20th century), but my immediate family is not particularly wealthy. Conversely, there are many people with a good deal of recently acquired wealth (rappers, musicians, and so on), who Lawrence Ross would not consider "Our Kind of People." If class is a function not only of wealth but also of education and "breeding," things start to get messy.

Because of this complicated relationship to class and my perception that questions of class are not as cut and dry as many might prefer that it be, I can't say that I believe it to be the most divisive force in the black community.

What would I say instead? I would say that what divides us most is the notion of blackness and the black monolith period; this idea that because we are all black, we all have the same experiences and must react and think in the same way. Moreover, those that do not believe (act, think, vote) as we believe (act, think, vote) are not black enough or are not black in the right way. This notion encompasses not only class issues but also issues that arise around sexuality, colorism, and so forth. This idea can be just as destructive a force to unity when it comes from within the community, as when it comes from without.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by Little32

For instance, I have an complicated relationship to class. I am rather highly educated, but I do not have a good deal of money. I come from a long line of educated folks, all of whom worked "prestigious" jobs and were well connected in the community...but my immediate family is not particularly wealthy. Conversely, there are many people with a good deal of recently acquired wealth (rappers, musicians, and so on), who Lawrence Ross would not consider "Our Kind of People." If class is a function not only of wealth but also of education and "breeding," things start to get messy.

It's Lawrence Otis Graham as the author. Lawrence Ross who has/had a log in here wrote "Divine Nine". Although there may be similarities to a minor part of their discussions, Lawrence Otis Graham is speaking on the Black Aristocracy and Bourgeoisie...

Somewhere on GC we had your discussion, it is tough to find right now. There is a difference between consumers and investors. Black folks have NOT been historical investors. I know few who have and I mean back in the day when they weren't allowed to invest...

This one lady that my family knows (and you know my family), use to work in the "white folks houses" and serve their meals. Well, when the meals were done, and while she was cleaning up, the "Master" of the house, who was a big bank stock broker/financial manager would talk to his "buddies" in that "ole boys network" about "investments" and the "stock market". They would do the CNBC and Cavuto style of predictions and "solve the fiduciary world's problems". Ironically, the woman was listening and understood what they were saying... So when they said buy or sell, well, she took her little money, $20-$50 which was quite a bit in the 1940's and 50's, and buy what "shares" she could reasonably afford...

Then during the next meal, they would say more...

When all of that action became illegal, she came out a multi-millionaire...

I think she use to run numbers in NYC that's how she knew what they were talking about...

I met her in Vegas, a GLAMOROUS BLACK WOMAN if you had EVER saw one--kinna like a combination between Foxy Brown, Cleopatra Jones and Diana Ross... She looked better than Diane [sp?] Carroll and Lena Horne combined... And this is mid-1980's. Don't know what happened to since, I think she died due to poor health...

Ask my uncle when you see him, he knows.

Originally Posted by Little32

Because of this complicated relationship to class and my perception that questions of class are not as cut and dry as many might prefer that it be, I can't say that I believe it to be the most divisive force in the black community.

That was my problem with this study and I found their stats rather off because it "perceptions" they were measuring, NOT real time determinations.

Black folks perceptions are unpredictable. There is some much historical stress and strain and pain and unadulterated reality placed, assumed and accepted by us that it becomes our reality. It is hurtful and depressing when one is exceptionally smart like that physics professor, or my husband and they have to maintain an aire of ego about them to stay sane. Most normal people do not. And it becomes naturalism, like Richard Wright's novels.

These thought patterns, a part of the utaamaroho, is systemic. You are suppose to think that way... Empowerment of oneself is lethal and dangerous. That is why rapper's and hoe's is so popular now. At least if I was a dreg of society, no one thinks highly of me, and I can do what I think is cool and fun, but the minute I actually do try to make a change in society--i.e. how come Michael Jackson hasn't donated more food to Africa by having helicopters drop supplies??? Then, that is dangerous, it puts you on a watch list... That stuff on "American Gangster"--there is a difference between quitting while your ahead and just quitting...

That is why Black folks may not want to accumulate wealth like that... It is not the only reason. Consumables purchasing power is fine, but really wealth to move mountains literally?

Originally Posted by Little32

What would I say instead? I would say that what divides us most is the notion of blackness and the black monolith period; this idea that because we are all black, we all have the same experiences and must react and think in the same way. Moreover, those that do not believe (act, think, vote) as we believe (act, think, vote) are not black enough or are not black in the right way. This notion encompasses not only class issues but also issues that arise around sexuality, colorism, and so forth. This idea can be just as destructive a force to unity when it comes from within the community, as when it comes from without.

I agree with that, somewhat. Folks are not asking similar questions if they are Chinese or Indian? But, we cannot be delusional to think there is no in fighting? Power corrupts absolutely... Chinese may not have similar freedoms as Americans due to their government that is why we see a "unified response". That will change in probably your late lifetime. Indian is already working on change and it is "their way", there may be influences, but it is still ultimately "their way".

African Americans as whole, well we cannot agree what to call ourselves. Other cultures have similar issues, but they do not focus on that problem devoutly... Collectively--Ujima--Black folks will get it together, someday and we will be a force to be reckoned with... The reality is, not everyone in this "group" will be Black, a majority of them will probably and ironically be "phenotypically" White...

When our anscestors were brought here in chains, that immediately made us blood brothers and sisters with Caucasians. So since neither one of us are going to be rid of each other anytime soon regardless of what we think, we may as well find resolution so some of these world's problems can cease--like Global Warming and World Hunger...

[Little32]

Thanks for the correction Soror, I do get those Lawrences mixed up sometimes.

To the last of what you said, I agree. Every community has in-fighting, but the difference is whether that in-fighting becomes the focal point that prevents us from focusing on more crucial matters; when it does, then that is a problem.

I guess the question then becomes what is the purpose of studies such as this one, the claims of which are not well-grounded in any sort of solid research? Do these studies function as a tool to perpetuate and sow divison? How are why are they useful?

The irony is that most black people do not have enough money to legitimately be considered a part of the bourgeoisie. Most of us are working class anyway.

[Rude awAKAning]

People believe that the black community and the rest of the world work differently... among others, it's about money, and among US, it's about hair or skin, or something else. The black community is not so different from the community at large, which is why I think it's true. America is separated by class, and black America is no different.

[PrettyBoy]

Originally Posted by WenD08

i think it's true. class is a real issue in our community just as skin color is still an issue, IMO. i feel there is an "Us and them" mentality amongst us.

I agree with this post.

[WenD08]

thank you PrettyBoy, althought i wish i was wrong. i feel our divisions seem more of a Human thing. Human beings will find ways to seperate themselves from others. Soror Rude hit the nail in on the head. regarding other folks of color, complexion is an issue as well. we aren't the only ones that are colorstruck.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by Little32

I guess the question then becomes what is the purpose of studies such as this one, the claims of which are not well-grounded in any sort of solid research? Do these studies function as a tool to perpetuate and sow divison? How are why are they useful?

There is no purpose to these studies, it is an OPINION poll--and opinions are like assholes, everyone has one...

The fact that it comes out a few weeks before "Thanksgiving" gets me more than anything else, because to me IMO, it is saying that Negroes do not have much to be thankful for... So IMO, it sows division--like the "enemy within"--classic Roman tactical war maneuver.

Is this OPINION poll useful? Depends on the outcome of the "study". To see a reflexive reaction and how angry it makes us, then that is the point of the study... If we Black folks had kept on, some organizations would have come out with worse statistics, like incarceration, teen pregnancy, HIV infection, etc. to piss us off.

So when you read or hear a report of these things you cannot get all hyped like the first circle of Hell in "Dante's Inferno of the Divine Comedy" and go batshit. Breathe, and move forward... Because if you go batshit and fight, that is when the "predators" have gotten you...

To whom the gods wish to destroy, they must first make them angry...

Originally Posted by Little32

The irony is that most black people do not have enough money to legitimately be considered a part of the bourgeoisie. Most of us are working class anyway.

We are not talking about competition with the true strata of society... We are discussing inter-stratification.

The "good negroes" vs. the "criminals"...

BLUNTLY: "The House" vs. "The Field"...

One thing often forgotten is "The Underground Runaways" who come back to free some more slaves because they have learned to "read"...

Now, is this class divide being forced? Who is doing it? Ourselves? Outside forces? Epistemology? Cultural Asili? Utamaawazo? The Gods? The Universe? Dark Matter?

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Blacksocialite

Do you think this is true?

No.

[Little32]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

There is no purpose to these studies, it is an OPINION poll--and opinions are like assholes, everyone has one...

The fact that it comes out a few weeks before "Thanksgiving" gets me more than anything else, because to me IMO, it is saying that Negroes do not have much to be thankful for... So IMO, it sows division--like the "enemy within"--classic Roman tactical war maneuver.

Is this OPINION poll useful? Depends on the outcome of the "study". To see a reflexive reaction and how angry it makes us, then that is the point of the study... If we Black folks had kept on, some organizations would have come out with worse statistics, like incarceration, teen pregnancy, HIV infection, etc. to piss us off.

So when you read or hear a report of these things you cannot get all hyped like the first circle of Hell in "Dante's Inferno of the Divine Comedy" and go batshit. Breathe, and move forward... Because if you go batshit and fight, that is when the "predators" have gotten you...

To whom the gods wish to destroy, they must first make them angry...





We are not talking about competition with the true strata of society... We are discussing inter-stratification.

The "good negroes" vs. the "criminals"...

BLUNTLY: "The House" vs. "The Field"...

One thing often forgotten is "The Underground Runaways" who come back to free some more slaves because they have learned to "read"...

Now, is this class divide being forced? Who is doing it? Ourselves? Outside forces? Epistemology? Cultural Asili? Utamaawazo? The Gods? The Universe? Dark Matter?

Soror, I do enjoy your posts. Let me ask this, because I am less familiar with the discipline, aren't sociological studies based on opinion polls of this sort?

[SummerChild]

Hello Sorors,
I do believe that class is a big divide. Whether it's *the* biggest, who knows. I think that class is major for Black America b/c it defines what we see and understand about those who are on the other side of the class divide - no matter what side we are on. When we can't understand those on the other side, we forget the challenges that they face, their perspective and their reality. For example, in a two-sided simple class structure, those on the have side don't understand and forget that some parents are just trying to keep a roof over their kids' heads and work several jobs, thus they are not home to see whether their kids are doing their homework. For them, homework is an extra - they are more concerned with whether those children will eat today and tomorrow. On the other side, the have nots think that the haves have forgotten about them, have it easy and would rather not be bothered with them. It causes disdain amongst the have nots. Also, the have are trying to reduce their tax deduction from their paychecks so that they can have more money to invest, etc. so they are not feeling some of the government programs that are crucial for the have nots.

This sort of division affects all sorts of things from voting stance (more haves are now voting Republican or Independent while the have nots are still voting Democrat) to simple exchange on issues of interest (think the differences in the takes on things as per Bill Cosby and Michael Eric Dyson).

So I think that it's a big issue but I don't know if it's the biggest. I certainly don't think that color or hair is the biggest issue. I think that most of us are a little further along at this stage of the game. At least, I have to hope so.

SC

Originally Posted by Blacksocialite

I posted a story of my blog today from The Philadelphia Daily News that reported on a Pew poll about Black people.

According to the poll, the biggest divide in Black America is more rooted in class division than anything else.

Do you think this is true?

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by Little32

Soror, I do enjoy your posts. Let me ask this, because I am less familiar with the discipline, aren't sociological studies based on opinion polls of this sort?

I am not a sociologist, however, basic research requires reviewing all the facets to guide a hypothesis. The sociologist might ask is there a class divide, then ask to see your last year's IRS statement to verify... Or based on the numbers of persons that self-identify as, how many used commercial tax services and did they get substantial refunds or how much capital gains did they pay--but then if folks are paying capital gains taxes, they are using professional CPA firms anyways...