Is church decreed punishment of God???

[marquise1911]

Recently a member of my church got a divorce. He was removed from all his leadership positions, stripped of his title, and ministering privilages after he refused to publically apologize for getting a divorce. Now the question I raise is, "what right do we have as men to punish sin?" I know if I tried to throw stones my arm would break everytime. Is it biblically sound to punish someone for self-sin? (being his divorce was a personal and private affair).

[KAPPAtivating]

Honestly, I have a serious problem when churches do things like this. I have a family member who was asked to step down from his Sunday School teaching because they got a divorce from their spouse. Granted, I understand what the Bible says about divorce and their are grounds that are bible-based reasons for getting a divorce. I mean, at my father's church the deacon that was praying over the Lord's Supper was bangin' a fellow classmate of mine (we were High School Juniors and he was in his late 30's) and that was a kept secret. My point is that my family member's divorce was made public and they were punished for that--what do each one of us do at home or in the closet that has not been made public, i.e. alcohol and drug abuse.

[teena]

Kappativating, I hear what you are saying. But I can see how the church does that. The church already has image issues and they dont want to appear to condone wrongdoing especially if they know of specific issues before hand. I happen to believe that what church leaders do in private does matter because they are looked up to as role models. Unless the reason for the divorce falls under the situations stated in the bible, I would agree that they should step down from any leadership position.

[Lady of Pearl]

Originally Posted by teena

Kappativating, I hear what you are saying. But I can see how the church does that. The church already has image issues and they dont want to appear to condone wrongdoing especially if they know of specific issues before hand. I happen to believe that what church leaders do in private does matter because they are looked up to as role models. Unless the reason for the divorce falls under the situations stated in the bible, I would agree that they should step down from any leadership position.

I agree, I think the issue was one of submission -it appears that he was unwilling to publicly acknowledge his divorce before the congregation and submit to church leadership. Therefore they made their decision to strip him of his leadership roles.

[marquise1911]

Originally Posted by Lady of Pearl

I agree, I think the issue was one of submission -it appears that he was unwilling to publicly acknowledge his divorce before the congregation and submit to church leadership. Therefore they made their decision to strip him of his leadership roles.

Ok I agree. But where does it stop??? He is not being submissive. But when I asked him why, I could agree. I would not apologize to ppl who I had not offended to save face for a few. To say "I'm sorry I got a divorce", when you are not sorry is a lie.

He was my high school mentor and from what I hear he had the right to get a divorce. But what I think of is simply how many ppl will not be able to hear God's word through him @ my church (he was great). Does the church have the right to be so harsh? Instead of washing their hands of him like they are doing they should be trying to help him. It was PUBLICALLY humiliating for them to come up and announce that he was "No longer_____, will not be ministering amongst our body, and is not welcome in our fellowship." That is not love.

[marquise1911]

Originally Posted by teena

Kappativating, I hear what you are saying. But I can see how the church does that. The church already has image issues and they dont want to appear to condone wrongdoing especially if they know of specific issues before hand.

Is that all it's about??? IMAGE!!! . We should care less about what ppl think and more about what we know to be true.

Originally Posted by teena

I happen to believe that what church leaders do in private does matter because they are looked up to as role models.

True, but we cannot forget that leaders are ppl to. That's what we forget. Just cause you mess up once doesn't make you a bad leader. To me it makes you better. A divorce would not have changed the way I and many others viewed him.

Originally Posted by teena

Unless the reason for the divorce falls under the situations stated in the bible, I would agree that they should step down from any leadership position.

From what I heard it does, but they removed him because he refused to apologize for it and for "unforgiveness". What the hell is that? Lawd knows what happened in those walls. I wouldn't ask someone to forgive someone they want to divorce. Who knows what reason they have.

[Lady of Pearl]

Sadly some churches are caught up in legalism not the Agape Love as shown by Jesus Christ-" he who is without sin let him cast the first stone! Go and sin no more"!

[FeeFee]

Originally Posted by marquise1911

Ok I agree. But where does it stop??? He is not being submissive. But when I asked him why, I could agree. I would not apologize to ppl who I had not offended to save face for a few. To say "I'm sorry I got a divorce", when you are not sorry is a lie.

He was my high school mentor and from what I hear he had the right to get a divorce. But what I think of is simply how many ppl will not be able to hear God's word through him @ my church (he was great). Does the church have the right to be so harsh? Instead of washing their hands of him like they are doing they should be trying to help him. It was PUBLICALLY humiliating for them to come up and announce that he was "No longer_____, will not be ministering amongst our body, and is not welcome in our fellowship." That is not love.

Oh wow, that is horrible. Make sure you pray for him and do what you can to keep him encouraged. He could really use some support.

[teena]

Originally Posted by marquise1911

Is that all it's about??? IMAGE!!! . We should care less about what ppl think and more about what we know to be true.

I hear what you are saying but this is the church. It is not all about image. But Perception is extremely important. Churches are supposed to be in the business of saving souls. People who are lost and trying to find their way wont be led to God if they perceive that the church leadership is not living by the guidelines set forth in the bible. For example, would you go to the church pastored by Bishop Don Juan(or whatever the name of the dude who hangs with Snoop). I know I wouldnt. I perceive that he would have a strong prosperity message but his views on the role a woman is supposed to play may be skewed.

Originally Posted by marquise1911

True, but we cannot forget that leaders are ppl to. That's what we forget. Just cause you mess up once doesn't make you a bad leader. To me it makes you better. A divorce would not have changed the way I and many others viewed him.

I agree. But there are consequences for certain behaviors regardless of forgiveness.

[marquise1911]

But I know of churches who expel members for getting their ears pierced? where does it stop???

[teena]

You really cant look at church as a single entity. When I talk about church, Im talking about Baptist. Different churches have different 'rules'.

[marquise1911]

^^ Yes, but when I talk about churches I'm talking about any "church" that claims the Bible and Jesus are the center of their teachings.

[btb87]

Originally Posted by marquise1911

Ok I agree. But where does it stop??? He is not being submissive. But when I asked him why, I could agree. I would not apologize to ppl who I had not offended to save face for a few. To say "I'm sorry I got a divorce", when you are not sorry is a lie.

He was my high school mentor and from what I hear he had the right to get a divorce. But what I think of is simply how many ppl will not be able to hear God's word through him @ my church (he was great). Does the church have the right to be so harsh? Instead of washing their hands of him like they are doing they should be trying to help him. It was PUBLICALLY humiliating for them to come up and announce that he was "No longer_____, will not be ministering amongst our body, and is not welcome in our fellowship." That is not love.

After my husband and I separated last year, I went to one of my church mothers and told her that I felt like I should step down from helping them with communion. She said she didn't see a problem with it, but she would talk with another church mother. Apparently, they (nor the pastor) had problems with it because I am still called on to help.

I honestly don't see why the brother had to apologize for the divorce to the congregation, especially if it wasn't his "fault". I also don't think it was necessary for the church to embarrass everyone by taking out an ad in the local paper (I know that the church didn't; I'm being facetious) saying that Minister So-and-So will no longer be preaching. Things weren't done, IMO, decently and in order. Those who needed to be involved should have been able to handle things without everyone knowing what the Minister had for breakfast that morning and with whom.

As someone else said, keep him in your prayers. If his services are no longer needed where he is, God will lead him to a place where he can help others. I truly believe that sometimes when we go through things (such as a separation or divorce) that we go through for others. I have been talking with some friends that are contemplating separation and just letting them know that it's hard, but they'll make it through. God didn't strip this young man's ministry away just because he's divorced, but I pray that through all of this, he stays humble so he can still be used mightily of God.

[marquise1911]

^^ I hope you don't mind, but I email him this remark. I wanted him to know he wasn't alone. Blessings!

[btb87]

Originally Posted by marquise1911

^^ I hope you don't mind, but I email him this remark. I wanted him to know he wasn't alone. Blessings!

No problem - I hope it helps in some way!