Kidnapping length and charges.

[naraht]

I know that there are various different levels of charges in each state for the crime of Murder ranging from 1st degree Murder(He planned for 6 months exactly how he was going to...) to X degree Manslaughter (A & B were drunk in a bar and started fighting and B's punch broke A's jaw and...)

Does anyone know if the equivalent situation exists for Kidnapping in general and more specifically in Ohio? (the Cleveland kidnappings).

While I'd hope that you wouldn't have the situation where brothers blindfolding pledges driving them around for an hour and leaving them at the Greyhound depot 2 counties over from the college would get the same charge as this monstrous event. While I agree that the first situation would get the chapter rightfully kicked off of campus, hopefully it wouldn't be treated as the same crime...

[AGDLynn]

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2905

[naraht]

Originally Posted by AGDLynn

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2905

OK, so in Ohio, unless the Prosecutor in the hazing case can prove "create a substantial risk of serious physical harm to the victim" then Kidnapping is off the table as a charge in a Brothers drop them off two counties over. (things are trickier if the pledges are under 18 of course).

Thanx

[Kevin]

In Oklahoma:

No person may be convicted of kidnapping unless the State has proved beyond a reasonable doubt each element of the crime. These elements are:

First, unlawful;

Second, (forcible seizure and confinement)/inveiglement;

Third, of another;

Fourth, with intent to (confine)/(send out of the State)/(sell as a slave)/(hold to service);

Fifth, against the person's will.

OR

Fifth, the victim was 12 years of age or less at the time of the offense.

I think consent of the victim would probably work as a defense. At least that's the route I'd take if I was the defense counsel. It'd be an interesting tightrope to walk to avoid a hazing charge though, not that I'd be all that concerned about hazing. It's probably a safe assumption that any organization which includes kidnappings/dropping off as part of its pledging program is also waging a terrorist campaign of some sorts against its pledges, all of which it could be said the pledge consented to.

Hazing in Oklahoma is a misdemeanor and carries up to a 90 day sentence. That beats all hell out of 20 years in the penitentiary, so it's an easy choice as to which one you'd want to be convicted of, and in all honesty, it's unlikely a prosecutor would charge something like this as felony kidnapping and even if they did, if it's a harmless college prank and no one got hurt, it's likely it could be plead down to hazing or some sort of lesser charge with a suspended/deferred sentence of some sort.

Please don't read this as legal advice blessing this sort of activity. I can guarantee you that it's totally against your organization's hazing policy and while a criminal defense attorney sees possibilities in raising some valid defenses, that is the sort of thing I would only do with a prosecutor hell bent on my client being hit with the maximum possible penalty. 9 times out of 10, I'd expect a pretty decent plea agreement and something to go on my client's record (but hopefully not a felony).

[naraht]

Originally Posted by Kevin

In Oklahoma:

No person may be convicted of kidnapping unless the State has proved beyond a reasonable doubt each element of the crime. These elements are:

First, unlawful;

Second, (forcible seizure and confinement)/inveiglement;

Third, of another;

Fourth, with intent to (confine)/(send out of the State)/(sell as a slave)/(hold to service);

Fifth, against the person's will.

OR

Fifth, the victim was 12 years of age or less at the time of the offense.

I think consent of the victim would probably work as a defense. At least that's the route I'd take if I was the defense counsel. It'd be an interesting tightrope to walk to avoid a hazing charge though, not that I'd be all that concerned about hazing. It's probably a safe assumption that any organization which includes kidnappings/dropping off as part of its pledging program is also waging a terrorist campaign of some sorts against its pledges, all of which it could be said the pledge consented to.

Hazing in Oklahoma is a misdemeanor and carries up to a 90 day sentence. That beats all hell out of 20 years in the penitentiary, so it's an easy choice as to which one you'd want to be convicted of, and in all honesty, it's unlikely a prosecutor would charge something like this as felony kidnapping and even if they did, if it's a harmless college prank and no one got hurt, it's likely it could be plead down to hazing or some sort of lesser charge with a suspended/deferred sentence of some sort.

Please don't read this as legal advice blessing this sort of activity. I can guarantee you that it's totally against your organization's hazing policy and while a criminal defense attorney sees possibilities in raising some valid defenses, that is the sort of thing I would only do with a prosecutor hell bent on my client being hit with the maximum possible penalty. 9 times out of 10, I'd expect a pretty decent plea agreement and something to go on my client's record (but hopefully not a felony).

The third point is wierd, do they have problems with people sort of Kidnapping themselves?

I would imagine in most cases the "Nobody got hurt" concept would tend to keep Felonies off the table (major exception I could see is something like the 7th or 8th DUI).

The Prosecutor in Ohio seems to be throwing everything that he can up against the wall to try to put Castro away. My guess is that if the City Prosecutors don't manage to get convictions that add up to Castro *never* comes up for Parole that they'll be looking for new Jobs.

[Kevin]

If the Castro thing had gone down here and I was a prosecutor applying Oklahoma law, I'd be filing multiple counts of kidnapping and homicide (of whatever sort, I'm not that familiar with the case) for the kids who died. I'd ask that the sentences run consecutively. I imagine kidnapping would be a violent crime, so it'd be a mandatory 85% sentence. Ohio is like that, he'll never see the light of day.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by Kevin

If the Castro thing had gone down here and I was a prosecutor applying Oklahoma law, I'd be filing multiple counts of kidnapping and homicide (of whatever sort, I'm not that familiar with the case) for the kids who died. I'd ask that the sentences run consecutively. I imagine kidnapping would be a violent crime, so it'd be a mandatory 85% sentence. Ohio is like that, he'll never see the light of day.

Well, unfortunately, the issue of whether Murder can be charged for the violent forced miscarriages has already gotten pulled into the abortion debate.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by naraht

Well, unfortunately, the issue of whether Murder can be charged for the violent forced miscarriages has already gotten pulled into the abortion debate.

It always does.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by naraht

Well, unfortunately, the issue of whether Murder can be charged for the violent forced miscarriages has already gotten pulled into the abortion debate.

I hope they are careful with the murder charge. I think it'd be smart for the prosecutors to put it in their back pocket and use it as an insurance policy. In other words, if they don't get enough at trial to make sure this animal never sees the light of day, they can then go ahead and prosecute the murder charges and see if they'll stick.

There's more than enough to accomplish justice here without an unnecessary sideshow and an emotional abortion debate which could really make it hard to pick a fair jury.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I hope they are careful with the murder charge. I think it'd be smart for the prosecutors to put it in their back pocket and use it as an insurance policy. In other words, if they don't get enough at trial to make sure this animal never sees the light of day, they can then go ahead and prosecute the murder charges and see if they'll stick.

There's more than enough to accomplish justice here without an unnecessary sideshow and an emotional abortion debate which could really make it hard to pick a fair jury.

The question on whether to use them may depend on whether they want this guy put to death or not. I'm not sure they can without bringing in the Murder/Forced Miscarriages/etc charge...

I almost wonder whether the rape charges can stick as well, it isn't like the cops will be able to present the standard evidence from a rape kit and after all of these years, I wonder whether any of the women will be able to say that "I was raped on March 22nd, 24th and 25th, 2008". (http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2907.02)

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by naraht

The question on whether to use them may depend on whether they want this guy put to death or not. I'm not sure they can without bringing in the Murder/Forced Miscarriages/etc charge...

I almost wonder whether the rape charges can stick as well, it isn't like the cops will be able to present the standard evidence from a rape kit and after all of these years, I wonder whether any of the women will be able to say that "I was raped on March 22nd, 24th and 25th, 2008". (http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2907.02)

I understand there's a living child who was conceived while one of the moms was in captivity. Assuming the DNA from the child matches (which can be looked at through your garden variety DNA paternity test), first, if mom was underage (for Ohio) at conception, she was incapable of consent. Second, if she's being held against her will, I'm not going to research it, but I'm guessing in Ohio, she's also not capable of giving consent. If she's not capable of consent and someone gets her pregnant, that's rape.