Law Degree Losing Its Luster?

[DrPhil]

http://lifeinc.today.msnbc.msn.com/_...alization?lite

Originally Posted by Article

Lawyers have sometimes taken a ribbing for what they do, but until recently few questioned why they do it: For the good pay and job security.

You can’t necessarily count on either of those things anymore.

The weak economy, globalization and technological advances have dramatically changed the legal industry, and experts say that's leaving a glut of lawyers coming out of school with massive student loans, high hopes and few job prospects.

*******
As is the case for many degrees and occupations, I know people with Juris Doctorates, including those who have passed Bar(s), who are unfortunately unemployed or working in an occupation other than what they invested so much time and training in. There unfortunately have always been people with Ph.D., J.D., M.D., etc. in unemployment lines (and needing public assistance). That is becoming increasingly the case in recent years.

What do the GC attorneys and law students think? Is this "law degree losing its luster" just drama and hype?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

What do the GC attorneys and law students think? Is this "law degree losing its luster" just drama and hype?

The headline is drama and hype. The story is a reflection of the economy. It's also a bit of hype, in that historically not all lawyers have made "lots" of money. Comparatively I'm not even sure you can say "most" have, depending on how one defines "lots" of money. Most lawyers make a comfortable living. There's a difference. I wonder how many grads come out of law schools expecting the high-paying jobs that most of them will not get.

Then there's the question of whether part of the problem is that there are too many lawyers. Are law schools turning out more lawyers than the population and economy can reasonably support?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I wonder how many grads come out of law schools expecting the high-paying jobs that most of them will not get.

I wager that many law students have this image in mind that includes being a well-paid attorney. As you very well know, there are a number of factors that contribute to how law students perceive the field.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Then there's the question of whether part of the problem is that there are too many lawyers. Are law schools turning out more lawyers than the population and economy can reasonably support?

Does it not balance itself out when not everyone passes the bar?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I wager that many law students have this image in mind that includes being a well-paid attorney. As you very well know, there are a number of factors that contribute to how law students perceive the field.



Does it not balance itself out when not everyone passes the bar?

Not really in my experience. Most do eventually.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

The headline is drama and hype. The story is a reflection of the economy. It's also a bit of hype, in that historically not all lawyers have made "lots" of money. Comparatively I'm not even sure you can say "most" have, depending on how one defines "lots" of money. Most lawyers make a comfortable living. There's a difference. I wonder how many grads come out of law schools expecting the high-paying jobs that most of them will not get.

Then there's the question of whether part of the problem is that there are too many lawyers. Are law schools turning out more lawyers than the population and economy can reasonably support?

Full disclosure: I am not an attorney, nor a law student, but this is a huge topic of discussion here, as a few law school alumni have banded together to sue some law schools for misrepresentation. I'm also a school snob.

I read somewhere, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that a lot of third-tier law schools are popping up because of the "promise" that law school offers and that it's a fairly lucrative endeavor for a university to add a law school. They know that students will pay (i.e., take on ridiculous loans) for a chance to "make the big bucks," and aren't savvy enough to know that all law schools are not created equally.

In some ways, it's similar to getting an MBA from the University of Phoenix. It may BE the same degree in name, but it won't get the mileage that an MBA from Harvard, Michigan, or Columbia might provide you; it will still get you high debt though. Most of the lawyers in my family and circle of friends ARE in those big law firms in big cities--but they also went to first-tier law schools (and undergrads). The ones who aren't did NOT want that big firm lifestyle and chose other paths.

I think it comes down to being realistic about your options. If you want to do work in a specific region, and you're fine with a comfortable salary, then go to a lower-tier school. You just have to be aware of the fact that it may be as far as you're going to go. That seems to be the issue--that a lot of people went to Podunk U's School of Law thinking that they were going to be tapped to join the white shoe firms in the big cities or to be asked to clerk at the Supreme Court.* They weren't, and they feel as if they got a bum deal.


*While I do not enjoy Clarence Thomas, I agree with him that the Supreme Court is getting too myopic in its views, as all sitting Justices attended Harvard or Yale. He has committed to picking clerks from all different law schools. I doubt many of his fellow Justices have done the same, but it's a start.

[Low C Sharp]

Munchkin, your whole post is correct.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Full disclosure: I am not an attorney, nor a law student, but this is a huge topic of discussion here, as a few law school alumni have banded together to sue some law schools for misrepresentation. I'm also a school snob.

I read somewhere, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that a lot of third-tier law schools are popping up because of the "promise" that law school offers and that it's a fairly lucrative endeavor for a university to add a law school. They know that students will pay (i.e., take on ridiculous loans) for a chance to "make the big bucks," and aren't savvy enough to know that all law schools are not created equally.

In some ways, it's similar to getting an MBA from the University of Phoenix. It may BE the same degree in name, but it won't get the mileage that an MBA from Harvard, Michigan, or Columbia might provide you; it will still get you high debt though. Most of the lawyers in my family and circle of friends ARE in those big law firms in big cities--but they also went to first-tier law schools (and undergrads). The ones who aren't did NOT want that big firm lifestyle and chose other paths.

I think it comes down to being realistic about your options. If you want to do work in a specific region, and you're fine with a comfortable salary, then go to a lower-tier school. You just have to be aware of the fact that it may be as far as you're going to go. That seems to be the issue--that a lot of people went to Podunk U's School of Law thinking that they were going to be tapped to join the white shoe firms in the big cities or to be asked to clerk at the Supreme Court.* They weren't, and they feel as if they got a bum deal.


*While I do not enjoy Clarence Thomas, I agree with him that the Supreme Court is getting too myopic in its views, as all sitting Justices attended Harvard or Yale. He has committed to picking clerks from all different law schools. I doubt many of his fellow Justices have done the same, but it's a start.

Law degrees get a ton of attention, but I think this is happening to a LOT of degrees. Now that most entry-level salaried jobs require a bachelors (and have for a while), everyone has a bachelors. So everyone goes for masters degrees, like that is the thing that will make them stand out. In return, lots of schools are adding masters programs, and making them non-research degrees in fields that have typically required a thesis. Thus, the masters has just become an extended bachelors.

On the whole, I think there is a glut of degree holders. Maybe law gets all of the attention because of its former prestige, and the expense of a law degree compared to other programs.

[Low C Sharp]

That's right. Law is also more stratified than virtually any other field. Coming out of undergrad, there's not actually that much difference between the average student from, say, Yale and Vanderbilt. They all have to get their foot in the door, start at the bottom, use connections, etc. There's a gigantic difference between coming from Yale Law and Vanderbilt Law. Twenty places in the rankings mean lots of different open and closed doors.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

Munchkin, your whole post is correct.

Yep. And don't get me started on for-profit law schools.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Law degrees get a ton of attention, but I think this is happening to a LOT of degrees. Now that most entry-level salaried jobs require a bachelors (and have for a while), everyone has a bachelors. So everyone goes for masters degrees, like that is the thing that will make them stand out. In return, lots of schools are adding masters programs, and making them non-research degrees in fields that have typically required a thesis. Thus, the masters has just become an extended bachelors.

On the whole, I think there is a glut of degree holders. Maybe law gets all of the attention because of its former prestige, and the expense of a law degree compared to other programs.

It's definitely happening across the board. One of the reasons universities LOVE Master's programs is because, for the most part, they're not expected to provide any, or much, funding. A non-research Master's program also requires little full-time faculty and resources--but the school is getting cold hard cash.

My graduate program was a bit of a cash cow program like that. It was once fantastic but it had fallen by the time I got there and was riding off its previous glory. Nevertheless, a lot of kids were impressed by the University's name and were perfectly content to take out the max in loans and not work or look for internships. Those are the same people who had a hard time finding a job afterwards; some never took off in the field and are doing other things. Those of us who took advantage of what the University, and the city, had to offer and pounded the pavement for jobs are doing very well.

[Kevin]

I think the issue with law schools is so apparent because the situation is a little more aggravated than with most other fields. We're talking about a 90 hour professional degree, which means 90 units of whatever the most expensive credit hour that school sells. My law alma mater, which is a 4th tier, charges $1,300/hour now. Almost double what it cost when I started there. These schools, while giving overall good legal educations are not much more than cash cows for their universities. My circumstances were such that a 4th tier made sense. I already had a job in my father's firm lined up after school and wanted to intern there in the day while going to school in the evenings. Also, it was 45 minutes closer to home than Oklahoma U, the second-tier which I could have attended for a lot less money.

I received a good paycheck while in school and had a job lined up. Also, in Oklahoma, employers don't really care whether you come from OU, OCU or Tulsa or out of state. They're more interested in your experience, clerkships, internships, etc. After that, unless you went to a Tier 1 school, which is pretty much unheard of in this market as Tier 1 associates typically don't send resumes to places like OKC, it's your experience and qualifications, not your school which are going to land you a job.

I graduated from a Tier 4 in '09. Very few of my classmates are not working in jobs which require a J.D. Quite a few have successful solo practices running. Others work in state jobs and there are even a few in the local ivory tower firms.

I'll admit though, our job market, at least right now is kind of an aberration. We only have 4.5% unemployment and unless Icahn dismantles Chesapeake Energy, we should be improving on that.

So I paid a lot for my degree. That's fine. I'm still getting the ROI I expected. Was I overcharged? I guess. That's why I'll never donate a dime to the school. I see them as a for-profit operation meant to subsidize an undergraduate school. I will and do donate regularly to my undergrad where I graduated from (because of scholarships), debt free.

It worked out for me because I was lucky enough to have been born on third base as far as the legal field is concerned. For students going through right now, my advice is to get as much out-of-school legal experience as possible. If that means taking unpaid internships, DO IT.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I think the issue with law schools is so apparent because the situation is a little more aggravated than with most other fields. We're talking about a 90 hour professional degree, which means 90 units of whatever the most expensive credit hour that school sells. My law alma mater, which is a 4th tier, charges $1,300/hour now. Almost double what it cost when I started there. These schools, while giving overall good legal educations are not much more than cash cows for their universities. My circumstances were such that a 4th tier made sense. I already had a job in my father's firm lined up after school and wanted to intern there in the day while going to school in the evenings. Also, it was 45 minutes closer to home than Oklahoma U, the second-tier which I could have attended for a lot less money.

I received a good paycheck while in school and had a job lined up. Also, in Oklahoma, employers don't really care whether you come from OU, OCU or Tulsa or out of state. They're more interested in your experience, clerkships, internships, etc. After that, unless you went to a Tier 1 school, which is pretty much unheard of in this market as Tier 1 associates typically don't send resumes to places like OKC, it's your experience and qualifications, not your school which are going to land you a job.

I graduated from a Tier 4 in '09. Very few of my classmates are not working in jobs which require a J.D. Quite a few have successful solo practices running. Others work in state jobs and there are even a few in the local ivory tower firms.

I'll admit though, our job market, at least right now is kind of an aberration. We only have 4.5% unemployment and unless Icahn dismantles Chesapeake Energy, we should be improving on that.

So I paid a lot for my degree. That's fine. I'm still getting the ROI I expected. Was I overcharged? I guess. That's why I'll never donate a dime to the school. I see them as a for-profit operation meant to subsidize an undergraduate school. I will and do donate regularly to my undergrad where I graduated from (because of scholarships), debt free.

It worked out for me because I was lucky enough to have been born on third base as far as the legal field is concerned. For students going through right now, my advice is to get as much out-of-school legal experience as possible. If that means taking unpaid internships, DO IT.

I've heard that there are still a fair number of markets where you can make a decent living with a law degree, they just aren't the cities that are really popular with young professionals, so it's a mismatch.

Also, when I see people attending the lower-tier schools in Chicago, they are paying not just tuition, but the cost of living in Chicago. So, you go to John Marshall and need 15-20K just to live in the city, instead of, say, Northern Illinois where you can live on about half that. I don't know if the former really gives you more useful connections, but it seems like a lot of people make that choice just to be in a cool place during law school.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Kevin

So I paid a lot for my degree. That's fine. I'm still getting the ROI I expected. Was I overcharged? I guess. That's why I'll never donate a dime to the school. I see them as a for-profit operation meant to subsidize an undergraduate school. I will and do donate regularly to my undergrad where I graduated from (because of scholarships), debt free.

It worked out for me because I was lucky enough to have been born on third base as far as the legal field is concerned. For students going through right now, my advice is to get as much out-of-school legal experience as possible. If that means taking unpaid internships, DO IT.

It's like you said above, you're getting the return on your investment. The problem now is that a lot of people are not getting their expected return on their investment even though they shouldn't have expected that much of a return.

The people who are suing their law schools thought the Tier 4 regional school would still allow them to play ball with the Tier 1 kids on the national field. That's not true, and it's never been true.

[KSUViolet06]

Wait, there is a such thing as for-profit law school?

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Wait, there is a such thing as for-profit law school?

Of course.