Nothing is fair about Florida and Michigan

PhiGam · #1 05-31-2008, 01:14 PM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24890836/

Quote:

The fact is, the DNC will not be doing what it should do — or at least what members of the Rules and Bylaws committee would like it to do — which is sympathize with Florida and drop the hammer on Michigan.

I agree 100%, the DNC should sit Florida's delegates but not Michigans. I really like Governor Crist's stance on the issue, basically that Florida taxpayers already funded one legitimate primary and that the DNC should either seat the delegates or pay for another election with their own funds.

BabyPiNK_FL · #2 05-31-2008, 01:18 PM

^^^Thank you. I actually will agree with you this ONE time. Never again though. lol.

Benzgirl · #3 05-31-2008, 01:18 PM

One of my friends is at the Democratic meeting right now (albeit in the rafters). I've been getting emails from his blackberry all morning.

nittanyalum · #4 05-31-2008, 03:33 PM

This whole thing is such a clusterfudge...

Thetagirl218 · #5 05-31-2008, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BabyPiNK_FL

^^^Thank you. I actually will agree with you this ONE time. Never again though. lol.

As do I, strange thing....lol! I have changed my stance on the Florida election probably because I am so sick of the hoop la that is going on! Seat the Florida delegates, Hillary did win even though Obama didn't campaign and she did!
He wasn't even on the ballot in MI!!!!! That is just not right to count the delegates there!

EE-BO · #6 05-31-2008, 05:19 PM

I have been watching this most of the day.

The Obama camp's suggestion to just split the Michigan delegates 50-50 is easily the most bizarre and silly proposal- but the others all seem fairly well thought out, even though I think they are an attempt to fix something that is already irreparably messed up.

Whatever happens, I really think Florida and Michigan will get identical treatment. Obama did voluntarily remove his name from the ballot in Michigan. There was no requirement he do so, and it proved to be a very foolish move though at the time maybe there was a good strategy behind it.

The really screwy thing here is that if Florida and Michigan are reinstated fully, Hillary gets to claim the popular vote ONLY on the basis that all the Michigan uncommitted votes are considered just that. Assume those are for Obama, which presumably just about all of them are, and then Obama wins the popular vote still. But then Hillary gets to come back and claim that doesn't really matter since he took his name off the ballot etc. etc. etc.

This is a real mess. Unless they take this to convention and both these candidates end up on the same ticket (Barack for President and Hillary for VP), then I do not see the party uniting for the election and swing voters going Democratic.

The one thing this whole process has shown however is just how much the DNC power structure can control and manipulate the nominee through super-delegates, caucuses and now maybe inventing a final vote tally in primaries that were declared invalid before they took place. Contrast this with the Republican Party system which has no tiered selection processes or super-delegates.

It is more than a little amusing to see all this exposed in the party that is still screaming about Florida in 2000 and claiming the election was stolen, and that voters were disenfranchised despite all the massive recounts and legal processes which supported the actual outcome.

AGDee · #7 05-31-2008, 06:21 PM

As a Michigander who voted in the Michigan primary, my opinion is that our delegates should not be seated, should not be counted 50-50 and should definitely not be counted as the election went. It cannot be assumed that all the uncommitted votes were for Obama because mine, for one, was for Edwards. There are too many people who DID NOT vote because the delegates weren't going to be seated. Since it's too late for another primary, they need to just drop Michigan altogether and let it go. It's impossible to "guess" what the voters who voted "uncommitted" wanted and it's impossible to "guess" how many people didn't vote because their candidate wasn't on the ballot.

Yes, it's a clusterfudge and I blame the Michigan Democratic Party officials who have had an awful lot of issues over the past few years.

BabyPiNK_FL · #8 05-31-2008, 06:47 PM

What is a clusterfudge? That sounds like a word Rose Nylund would use! St. Olaf story!

shinerbock · #9 05-31-2008, 07:56 PM

Although I would love to see this drag on, I'm getting bored. I'm ready to rev up the machine against Obama.

AGDee · #10 05-31-2008, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BabyPiNK_FL

What is a clusterfudge? That sounds like a word Rose Nylund would use! St. Olaf story!

Well, I'm almost as old as Rose

jon1856 · #11 05-31-2008, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SECdomination

I wouldn't expect anything less from the other party.

Last time I checked, it was "The Other Party" who caused this mess, as a few others, in FL.

jon1856 · #12 05-31-2008, 09:04 PM

Well-The Winners/Losers are:
Officials say Fla., Mich. delegates will get half-votes
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24281546/
Democrats seat half Florida and Michigan delegates
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNe...edName=topNews

DaemonSeid · #13 05-31-2008, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jon1856

Well-The Winners/Losers are:
Officials say Fla., Mich. delegates will get half-votes
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24281546/
Democrats seat half Florida and Michigan delegates
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNe...edName=topNews

either way...soebody should tell hillary to be careful waht she asked for....realize...she had been pushing for MONTHS to get them seated...now that they will be...and not in a fashion that she wants...o well...sometimes you should just leave some things alone.

Senusret I · #14 05-31-2008, 10:08 PM

Nobody should have been seated.

Bust a deal, face the wheel!

EE-BO · #15 05-31-2008, 10:33 PM

I was not surprised that Florida and Michigan got equal treatment, but I was surprised that the Michigan State Democratic party recommendation was undertaken which essentially took 4 delegates from Hillary and then gave Obama those 4 plus 55 delegates to represent "uncommitted" votes. That was too much a liberty I think.

But the real buzzkill here was CNN having the new projected numbers ready to go and showing the various scenarios.

Even with this latest Hillary move on Florida and Michigan- Obama is STILL going to be nominee. She would need over 70% of the super-delegates and a damn good performance in the last 3 primaries to take the win.

And I do not see that happening. If you look at the various cases presented, today was a big win for Obama. In essence- his campaign got what they wanted in terms of proposed solutions except that the split in Michigan was a bit different.

So once again, Hillary has declared a "defining moment" that could turn the tide- and it didn't happen!

At the end of the day, Obama got the 1/2 vote ruling for Florida, the 1/2 vote ruling for Michigan AND a compromised Michigan delegate count that gave him more than what he potentially could have won assuming all uncommitted were for him.

Hillary got nothing she asked for.

In the broader sense I take this to mean that DNC leaders have definitively dismissed the Clintons as the power leaders behind the party and have given that honor to Obama. That is huge. Today is the first time that power shift has been formally "ratified" if you will.

The big question remaining though is what the Hillary supporters will do in the general election.

Obama's disadvantage today was how what was best for him conflicts with the prima-facie case for how to handle Florida and Michigan.

What I mean by saying that is that to the average man in the street the votes should all count- regardless of party rules. The right for your vote to count just resonates a lot better than a lot of fancy rules and machinations that are contrary to that basic concept. This is especially important outside of Michigan or Florida where voters might not be as familiar with how things really went down in both states.

So for Hillary this was easy. The "every vote should count as cast" argument worked in her favor.

But for Obama the favorable argument was to not have Florida or Michigan seated at all. Obviously he cannot do that given the power of "every vote should count", so instead his team came up with inconsistent approaches to the states- half value in Florida and a 50-50 allocation of Michigan voters.

Granted the disparate treatment could be considered reasonable in light of how the ballot differed in both states, but the average man in the street will not care about that.

At this point it is clear to me Obama is going to be the nominee- and I expect that will be confirmed by Thursday of this coming week. Clinton may go to the Credentials Committee, and it might be a good play for her to force Obama to make her VP, but she will not be the nominee.

The outstanding question now is whether Obama can win. I thought he was unelectable before today, and with Hillary supporters angry over what they will see as a breach of the "every vote should count" concept- I expect he is in an even bigger hole than he was before this.

In other words, what a lot of Democrats have said before might be coming true. Namely, Obama will get the nomination- but Hillary did a great job of doing all she could to ensure Obama could not win the White House.

Time will tell. Lots could happen before November...