IFC/Greek Council Rant....and some questions.

[SinfonianChad]

Hello all! I've been reading the forums here for a few months, having been so darn curious about the inner workings of Greek Life on other campuses, and I can't tell you all how much I've learned. The knowledge I've gained here has aided me in my deliberation and decision making SOOO much in the past few years, and I'm glad that Greeks could come together and discuss these issues with so little friction or hostility. Moreover, my campus HAS had such friction recently, so this resource is even more helpful as I can be assured that I'm not the only one that wants questions answered. Now, down to business....

I apologize for the rant to follow. It's been months of ridiculousness, and I can barely decide what to believe given ALL the information I have already. Consider this my grand introduction to the forums (as this is as grandiose as my posts will [hopefully] ever be). Here goes:

First, a little background on my situation. I'm a junior going to a small private college in the Midwest. I joined my chapter of Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia in Fall of 2005 as a new Freshman. Since then, I've grown to love my chapter, in the same way I know many of you have. I've always been extremely interested in Greek origins, the strength of our Brotherhood, Greek Life, the social impact of the Greek Experience, as well as the great leadership opportunities that has come with it all.

At the beginning of Spring '07, our chapter was contacted by the President of a new organizations, the "Greek Council". It was just started the year before, and already consisted of the other 5 biggest social GLO's on campus (2 NIC fraternities and 3 NPC Sororities). We had been approached even earlier about this, but there was much talk within our senior members about excessive rule-making and restrictions that could hinder our growth, so we declined the invitation quickly. This new invitation was given significantly more thought. At it's roots, the constitution for this new Greek Council (further labeled "GC") outlined what was essentially a programming Board, allowing the Social Greeks of our campus to cooridnate in a way that had never been acheived before. In it's first year, it created our first Greek Week, and fostered a larger sense of Greek Unity. At the end of the Spring Semester, assured that our previous worries of forming an overbearing Greek Government were false ,we decided to join. We were officially put on the roster beginning in October '07.

Since then, Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia had been an active member of the group. We invited more Greeks to our events, cleared up our misconceptions about some of the other Greek groups, and were ourselves being invited to many functions and events. We were finally being recognized as the Social Fraternity that we currently are. During the elections that December, I was elected President of GC (which is still, to this date, the only time I've won an election ), and another Sinfonian was elected Secretary (we became half of the existing Exec Board). This semester we were sworn into our positions and functioned normally. For an added note, I'd like to say that we were doing great, creating an environment for a LOT of conversation about Greek topics and planning what I believe will still be an AMAZING Greek Week for the Fall.

Now to the part that matters (I know, FINALLY, right?). In February, an initiative was created called the Greek Task Force. It was meant to help identify our ideals as a Greek Community and then enhance them with the help of what was termed as a "Relationship Statement". We were told that most campuses have something like this....a list of GLO standards and restrictions that we must all live by. I certainly agree with having a document like this around. The Greek Task Force was comprised of 3 members from each of the 6 chapters in Greek Council, as a way to guage each chapter's overall opinion. During the biweekly meetings, we started creating a lot of standards, like an increased minimum GPA, higher required attendance to Greek events, and increased attendance to leadership conferences. Midway through March, I was contacted by the Assistant Dean of Student Activities, asking if he could come to our Sunday Meeting to explain about Greek Council and greek task Force, since so many people in my chapter still didn't know what I had been doing with these organizations. That Sunday, he showed up promptly, though with the Director of Student Affairs, Dean of Students, and the Asst. Dean of Students (which I wasn't told about). At that time, we were informed that Greek Council was being dissolved, a new Greek Leadership Council was being formed, and that we weren't to be a part of it. The new Council would consist of everyone in the previous Council, except Phi Mu Alpha. The rationale was about the NIC. The letter we were given (which was a paragraph and a three point timeline) stated, "The Greek Council, which will be evolving into the Greek Leadership Council (GLC), will serve the needs of nationally affiliated, social organizations that belong to national social governing bodies, such as [NPC], [NIC], [NPHC], and [NALFO]." Regarding us, I was told that we'd be a part of a separate organization, which will give us the "opportunity to partner with other other organizations that have similar expectations." Examples of other such organizations were ΣΑΙ and ΑΦΩ. Besides the exclusion of Phi Mu Alpha, a local Sorority is being dissolved. All of this was extremely abrupt and was done with no Student Interaction. I just would have thought students would be told about a change of this magnitude before it was enforced.

All of this is not including a lot of additional side converations and meetings that clarified a lot, but I come to the same ultimate issue... Phi Mu Alpha is not in the NIC. According to the 4 administrators that are pushing this, not being in the NIC is enough reason not to be a part of the Greek Council's new IFC branch. I can't seem to figure out how not being in the NIC makes us so clearly separate form everyone else. We can't help woth Greek Week, we're not allowed to Greek Council Meetings, and....I got kicked out of the Presidency just weeks into my term. Obviously, I'm a bit peeved. Not being familiar with other campuses, this is where my questions arise.

1. For those with situations like this, is the IFC (or similar group) exclusive to NIC Fraternities?
2. For those more familiar with Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia, is that chapter in your IFC? If not, is it a part of some other advisory board?
3. Opinion time....Am I wrong for being pissed about all of this? I know I'm probably taking it too personally, but it was like a slap in the face. The new board will be exactly like the old one, but without Phi Mu Alpha, and for a reason that just seems so arbitrary...to not be a part of a national social governing body. I've checked the NIC Risk Management policies and general regulations. Phi Mu Alpha's is every bit as strict, and just as comprehensive. I just feel like the only difference on the local level is that our national dues are currently $67 per semester, and everyone else pays hundreds.


Look at that! I started the post happy, and now I'm frustrated all over again. Well, I applaud you if you managed to read that whole mess. i suppose part of this was venting, but most of this is truly about asking people what they think, and if anyone has experience with Greek Councils/Campus Greek interactions/Relationship Statements. I need all the information I can get. Next week, I have meetings with the VP of the College, all 4 administrators that initiated this ridiculousness, and each of the other GLO Exec boards. I've been doing a lot of research, but that doesn't cover other campuses at all.

Any feedback in welcome.....so very welcome

Thanks you all SOOO much for your time,
SinfonianChad

[RU OX Alum]

Local IFC has NOTHING to do with who is/n't in NIC. For example, Kappa Alpha Psi was always in NIC (for awhile before I got to school anyway) and they never showed up once to an IFC meeting (can't blame them). If you already have a greek council, a seperate IFC is just plain stupid, as it gives the members of those orgs. too much to do.

[BabyPiNK_FL]

At my school IFC is NOT exclusive to NIC members or any particular national group. It is called the interfraternal council because it is there for men's fraternities of all kinds (latino, multicultural, south asian, etc.) to maintain relations with one another, with the school, and with other organizations. (Although now we have a Multicultural Council to which these groups have voluntarily switched to to develop their own agendas).

To exclude you is not in the best interest of anyone as far as I can tell. Especially with the recent development of bringing you so close with the other groups and with your org. being more relatable in social aspects to these groups. They should have asked you instead. There is no need for them to insist you belong somewhere else without having first consulted you regarding your organizations best fit. Especially when these student run groups usually make up their own Constitutions featuring regulations about who is eligible for membership. Speak with the higher ups, show them the regulations and information from your national org. and your current chapter goals, etc. and demand that the IFC at least be able to decide if they are in line with those of the other groups.

[33girl]

Hi Chad:

I am an alumna of Clarion University. The PMA chapter is on IFC there and to my knowledge, there has never been a question about it.

There are also national fraternities that are not NIC members (Kappa Sigma, for one) so "your group isn't in the NIC" isn't really valid. Plus we used to have local fraternities and they were on IFC as well. If you rush like the other fraternities and have a pledge program like the other fraternities, you should be in your school's IFC.

It sounds like some of the guys in charge didn't do their homework - or are being swayed by someone in one of the other fraternities to do this. You are 110% right to be pissed.

There are several Sinfonians on here, they will be able to help you.

[MysticCat]

Hey Brother Chad:

Sorry you're having a rough time. Two things: as others have pointed out, campus IFCs are distinct from the NIC, and there are national fraternities whose chapters I can pretty much guarantee are part of campus IFCs that have withdrawn from the NIC -- as 33girl notes, Kappa Sigma is one such fraternity.

My experience and observation is that the way IFCs/Greek Councils/whatever-you-want-to-call-them are composed and function, can vary a great deal from school to school, especially among smaller schools. There really isn't a one size fits all template to use here.

The other thing (and the best advice I have): have you talked to anyone at Lyrecrest about this? They deal pretty regularly with campus IFC/Greek Council issues, and I know I have seen them encourage chapters to contact them if there are IFC/Greek Council issues at their schools. I imagine that they have some experience with this sort of thing or could put you in contact with other chapters that may have faced similar issues. I think they're also used to dealing with administrators.

I'd give Ryan Ripperton a call before your meeting next week. I'd also, if you haven't done so already, make sure your Province Governor is in the loop.

Good luck!!

[DUKyleXY]

Chad,

I am a member of the IFC Executive Council at Iowa State University. At Iowa State we currently have 4 social greek councils, Interfraternity Council (IFC), Collegiate Panhellenic Council (CPC), National Pan-hellenic Council (NPHC), and the Multicultural Greek Council (MGC). The IFC is composed of 29 men's fraternities, many of which are NIC affiliated, but there is also a local fraternity, and at least three non-NIC affiliated national fraternities. The CPC is composed of 17 women's sororities, most of which are NPC affiliated. The NPHC is composed of 4 fraternities and sororities who are all affiliated with the NPHC. The MGC is composed of 3 fraternities and sororities who are multiculturally based. Other organizations such as the professional GLOs are not part of our councils.

Now, our campus does not have a Phi Mu Alpha chapter, so I don't know where your org would fit in at ISU, but I think that you do have a right to be pissed. From your explanation, it seems that the administration stepped in with their own ideas of how things should work. I take it that the Greek Council was working well? There is no reason that your council could not include all organizations in your community. The administration likely looked into the Greek Communities at other Universities and Colleges and found this new setup that looked "right" to them.

I hope that your campus figures out what is right for your campus. I would suggest that you go to the other Greek Council member organizations and request their support and unify.

Interfraternally,
DUKyleXY

[PANTHERTEKE]

Originally Posted by BabyPiNK_FL

At my school IFC is NOT exclusive to NIC members or any particular national group. It is called the interfraternal council because it is there for men's fraternities of all kinds (latino, multicultural, south asian, etc.) to maintain relations with one another, with the school, and with other organizations. (Although now we have a Multicultural Council to which these groups have voluntarily switched to to develop their own agendas).

To exclude you is not in the best interest of anyone as far as I can tell. Especially with the recent development of bringing you so close with the other groups and with your org. being more relatable in social aspects to these groups. They should have asked you instead. There is no need for them to insist you belong somewhere else without having first consulted you regarding your organizations best fit. Especially when these student run groups usually make up their own Constitutions featuring regulations about who is eligible for membership. Speak with the higher ups, show them the regulations and information from your national org. and your current chapter goals, etc. and demand that the IFC at least be able to decide if they are in line with those of the other groups.

You're back!! lol

And yeah, what everyone has been saying: local IFC doesn't need to be exclusive to only NIC fraternities.

[gpb1874]

At my campus, we have PMA and they are not part of IFC. The IFC constitution states membership is open to fraternities that are members of NIC. Phi Delts were grandfathered in since they were members of NIC when they colonized. PMA has not asked to be part of IFC and I'm not sure they would fit in so well on this campus.

I belive the main issue comes to structure, both that of PMA on the local & national level and the structure of IFC. IFC tends to plan leadership or service events (not a big deal) and recruitment. Would PMA play by the rules of the other fraternities in regards to recruitment? Would they not offer membership to someone already in an NIC (or former NIC) fraternity? It could be odd for an IFC exec officer or delegate to be a member in 2 fraternities that are represented on one council.

You said PMA was a social fraternity. In my experience, social is not a primary object as it is tends to be with the NIC type fraternities. I thought PMA existed to advance the enjoyment and skill in music, not be social. I realize it can vary from campus to campus.

I'm not saying it wouldn't work or is a bad idea, just some food for thought.

It does suck that the admin changed the game without much input from the students.

It is becoming more common for campuses to start some type of Greek Council for special interest Greeks (music, service, academic, professional) so they can collaborate on activities, common interests and solve similar problems together.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by gpb1874

Would PMA play by the rules of the other fraternities in regards to recruitment? Would they not offer membership to someone already in an NIC (or former NIC) fraternity?

This has been a major question, I think, as some PMA chapters have debated whether to seek IFC membership. But in all instances I am familiar with, if the PMA chapter is a member of IFC, it is exclusive with regard to other IFC fraternities, so that dual membership is not a problem.

You said PMA was a social fraternity. In my experience, social is not a primary object as it is tends to be with the NIC type fraternities. I thought PMA existed to advance the enjoyment and skill in music, not be social. I realize it can vary from campus to campus.

Phi Mu Alpha is a social fraternity, but one with a special interest (not completely unlike FarmHouse, Alpha Gamma Rho or Triangle). There are, however, still some lingering "leftovers" from our years (50s-early80s) as a professional fraternity

It is becoming more common for campuses to start some type of Greek Council for special interest Greeks (music, service, academic, professional) so they can collaborate on activities, common interests and solve similar problems together.

I've seen this, too. The reality is that some PMA chapters find that IFC/Greek Council works for them, while others find that something else works better for their situation.

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by gpb1874

You said PMA was a social fraternity. In my experience, social is not a primary object as it is tends to be with the NIC type fraternities. I thought PMA existed to advance the enjoyment and skill in music, not be social. I realize it can vary from campus to campus.

I'm not saying it wouldn't work or is a bad idea, just some food for thought.

Phi Mu Alpha is a social fraternity. Similar to NIC members, Alpha Gamma Rho, Alpha Gamma Sigma, FarnHouse, Sigma Phi Delta and Triangle. All are social first, yet focus on specific areas of academics. (i.e. music, agriculture, engineering, sciences, architecture etc.)

From what I have read and heard, Phi Mu Alpha would be a welcomed member of NIC. My understanding is that the only issue in joining is duel membership.

The NIC single membership policy started with the formation of the NIC in 1909 and continues today. To be a member of the NIC, one of the stipulations was that members of the fraternity could only have a single membership in a "social" fraternity. Be it "general" or "academic" or "religious" based - i.e. no other membership in an NIC "type" fraternity. Thus, if a fraternity allowed duel membership, they had to change the policy to single membership. For what it is worth, both NIC founding member Acacia and later, Delta Chi, allowed duel membership at one time. Perhaps a few other NICs that I am not aware of as well.

And to the NIC's credit, the NIC did not require any current members of the fraternity to give up membership in either of the fraternities. As far as the NIC was concerned, he was a member in good standing with both fraternities.

ETA: What MysticCat said. ^^^

[Random Task]

On our campus we don't have a IFC, we just have regular Greek Council that governs all Greek related student organizations. All requests to become a new Greek organization on campus first has to go through SGA (Student Gov' Association) to be confirmed as a club, then a unanimous decision from Greek council and all Greek organizations is needed for charter of the new Greek organization. Needless to say that we don't get many requests for new organizations.. haha.

[AlwaysSAI]

On my campus we have SAI, PMA, and MPhiE. We formed an IFC among ourselves. We have yet to be welcomed into the campus greek council because the old Greek advisor said that we were not greek. There is a new Greek Life advisor and one of our goals is to talk with her about our options. (:

But, we have formed an M-IFC (Music Inter-fraternity Council) amongst ourselves. M-IFC meets by bi-weekly, I believe, and is comprised of the President & VP-Membership of each org represented. We coordinate & plan recruitment together, have joint activities/events, support each other's events, etc.

I don't know what other orgs you have on campus, but that may be an option for you.

I do know that the PMA chapter at my sister's school (Western Carolina Univ.) petitions to be a part of their campus IFC every semester and are turned down because they (allegedly) haze. I honestly think it's activities condoned by PMA nationals that are viewed as hazing by IFC....but anyway.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by TSteven

From what I have read and heard, Phi Mu Alpha would be a welcomed member of NIC. My understanding is that the only issue in joining is duel membership.

That's certainly one of the issues. My understanding of the dual membership question, though, is similar to yours -- that should we join the NIC, any ban on dual membership would likely be prospective only.

Another big issue, frankly, is money. As I understand it, dues to the NIC are based on the number of active chapters a fraternity has. If we were to seek membership and be accepted, we would be in the top 5 fraternities in terms of number of chapters (although our chapters tend to be smaller than those of many NIC fraternities). That would make for a really large bump in our budget (and dues, probably) -- the kind of extra obligation a fraternity doesn't want to take on unless there is a real comfort level that membership will be worth it.

There's another issue to, I think. While we remain out of the NIC, our chapters don't necessarily have to join IFC, at least on most campuses. I think right now our concensus is that it's better to let the decision to joing IFC/Greek Council be made on a campus-by-campus basis. Many chapters have joined IFC and it's worked great for them. Some chapters have been required by the administration to join. For other chapters, they may do better outside IFC, maybe being part of a council like AwaysSAI described. Campus cultures are different -- on some campuses, our chapters stick pretty much to the music department. (Shoot, on many campuses, all the music students create a school within a school by sticking close to the music department.) On other campuses, our chapters are actively involved in campus life in general and are much less confined to the music department. Not being in NIC allows some flexibility for chapters to do what works best for them.

So for now, we're keeping things like they are and are not part of any umbrella org. (That is, unless one counts the Interfraternity Music Council, which is basically an annual gathering of the presidents of the "music GLOs".)

Originally Posted by AlwaysSAI

I do know that the PMA chapter at my sister's school (Western Carolina Univ.) petitions to be a part of their campus IFC every semester and are turned down because they (allegedly) haze. I honestly think it's activities condoned by PMA nationals that are viewed as hazing by IFC....but anyway.

I'd be curious what activities that would be considered hazing by IFC would be condoned by our nationals. Curious and maybe a little skeptical.

Though I could easily believe that some practices condoned by our nationals would be considered hazing by the NPC. {ducking and taking cover}

[SinfonianChad]

First of all, thanks to all of you for reading through that ridiculousness. And even moreso, the information given here has been great. I think tha my largest problem so far has been that the administration here has MUCH more experience with other Greek systems than I do. My meeting with them last week....just we with all 4 of them (by the way, it's a little intimidating), they would refer to how other schools work, which I couldn't refute. At least now I have a little background, and that my efforts don't seem to be without merit.

I defintely understand the double-membership thing. I know many members of Phi Mu Alpha are also in other GLO's, though I think the environment here prevents that. We have the smae rush week as the other fraternities, and people choose which group they choose. We are essentially mutually exclusive, but only on the campus level (which I understand that some campuses do that as well). I just can't believe that the administration was so quick to act, with so little information.

I don't think the NIC thing should play nearly as large of a part of this as they've made it, so I'm goignt o try to play that card as hard as I can. Our SGA has basically condemned the administration for their activities at this point, the other 5 main greek orgs seems totaly behind me, and even teh VP of the college has voiced his support. I'm certainly hopeful

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by SinfonianChad

I don't think the NIC thing should play nearly as large of a part of this as they've made it, so I'm goignt o try to play that card as hard as I can. Our SGA has basically condemned the administration for their activities at this point, the other 5 main greek orgs seems totaly behind me, and even teh VP of the college has voiced his support. I'm certainly hopeful

Good luck, and keep us updated!

And I really do want to reiterate my main chunk of advice -- call Ryan Ripperton or someone else at Lyrecrest, and call your PG. I think they could give you some helpful support. A call to your administration from our HQ might go a long way to smoothing things out. You (and your chapter) don't need to be in this alone.