Hazing. Is it necessary?

[KAY10]

O.K. Who pledged old skool and who pledged new skool. In other words did you get hazed? Also how long was your pledge period? Last but not least do you think hazing is necessary?

[Senusret I]

Do a search. This topic has been discussed a lot.

[macallan25]

Yes, hazing is necessary.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

Do a search. This topic has been discussed a lot.

A LOT.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by macallan25

Yes, hazing is necessary.

I am definitely old school.
I was hazed.
It is NOT necessary.
It's also not smart.
It is illegal.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

Do a search. This topic has been discussed a lot.

Especially in the Risk Management/hazing forum

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

I am definitely old school.
I was hazed.
It is NOT necessary.
It's also not smart.
It is illegal.

It IS necessary....you are obviously not old school......it depends on what is being done. I'm not talking about beating pledges and forcing them to drink and such. This however....has been beat to death in the other forum....so I don't really care.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by macallan25

It IS necessary....you are obviously not old school......it depends on what is being done. I'm not talking about beating pledges and forcing them to drink and such. This however....has been beat to death in the other forum....so I don't really care.

It's real likely that I've been around the Greek System since before your were born and seen it change a lot over those years.

I've also seen the damage that hazing can do first hand as an advisor and Division officer.

I've watched us try to self-destruct, and local and state governments and university administrations step into the process.

Due to the above, I've seen national organizations have to be reactive and then proactive.

In a few years, let's take a look back and see what happened.

[shinerbock]

A few years from now schools will be making fraternities fill quotas for minorities and homosexuals.

[L.O.C.K.]

Yes I pledged, and it was hard.

Is "hazing" necessary? Yes, but only parts of Hazing. Hazing is defined so broadly that anything can be considered hazing.

The reality is you can NOT have a strong organization if anyone can just walk in with out sacrificing any time, etc to gain that membership. That is called a club.

Fraternities are where they are today because of the brotherhood built between members and the leaders that they create. This can't be accomplished if you don't feel a sense of brotherhood within the organization.

Now, am I advocating for stupid stuff? No, not at all. Doing callisthenics (sp?) should not be hazing. Memorizing your organizations history should not be hazing. Having to greet brothers should not be hazing. Making someone drinkg 2 litres of vodka should be hazing.

The reality is we all rationalize what we do to our pledges, or else they wouldn't do it. We all say what we are doing has a purpose. You can find meaning in anything. But it is important that the meaning is relevant, the means is safe, and the message is clear.

[Senusret I]

I went to stophazing.org and found a list of activities that are considered hazing. It goes without saying that I don't agree with violence, harrassment, or humiliation, and for the purposes of this discussion, I will assume that no one on GC agrees with those things, either. So I want to focus on "Subtle Hazing" define below:



A. SUBTLE HAZING:
Behaviors that emphasize a power imbalance between new members/rookies and other members of the group or team. Termed “subtle hazing” because these types of hazing are often taken-for-granted or accepted as “harmless” or meaningless. Subtle hazing typically involves activities or attitudes that breach reasonable standards of mutual respect and place new members/rookies on the receiving end of ridicule, embarrassment, and/or humiliation tactics. New members/rookies often feel the need to endure subtle hazing to feel like part of the group or team. (Some types of subtle hazing may also be considered harassment hazing).

Some Examples:

* Deception
* Assigning demerits
* Silence periods with implied threats for violation
* Deprivation of privileges granted to other members
* Requiring new members/rookies to perform duties not assigned to other members
* Socially isolating new members/rookies
* Line-ups and Drills/Tests on meaningless information
* Name calling
* Requiring new members/rookies to refer to other members with titles (e.g. “Mr.,” “Miss”) while they are identified with demeaning terms
* Expecting certain items to always be in one's possession



I'll be honest....I've experienced all of those things to some degree in every fraternal process I've been through, with the exception of "name calling" and being called anything demeaning.

I have not decided if experiencing these things made me a better member of my fraternities.....nor do I know if I am worse off. I do believe that anyone can do these things if they want to be a member badly enough. On one line, one girl was never really seen again after she crossed. (As was the case on my mom's DST line) And I'm not especially close to my Alpha LBs. Hey, it is what it is.

I do think that aspirants of any organizations should receive some sort of rite of passage, if for no other reason than to receive ritualistic and philosophical lessons outside of the ritual, which I received in each process I was in.

Much of what I did do had meaning...metaphorical, allegorical, etc. Some of it was just for fun.

Was I hazed? By the definition of subtle hazing, yes, I was.

[Virtuous Woman]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

A. SUBTLE HAZING:
Behaviors that emphasize a power imbalance between new members/rookies and other members of the group or team. Termed “subtle hazing” because these types of hazing are often taken-for-granted or accepted as “harmless” or meaningless. Subtle hazing typically involves activities or attitudes that breach reasonable standards of mutual respect and place new members/rookies on the receiving end of ridicule, embarrassment, and/or humiliation tactics. New members/rookies often feel the need to endure subtle hazing to feel like part of the group or team. (Some types of subtle hazing may also be considered harassment hazing).

Some Examples:

* Deception
* Assigning demerits
* Silence periods with implied threats for violation
* Deprivation of privileges granted to other members
* Requiring new members/rookies to perform duties not assigned to other members
* Socially isolating new members/rookies
* Line-ups and Drills/Tests on meaningless information
* Name calling
* Requiring new members/rookies to refer to other members with titles (e.g. “Mr.,” “Miss”) while they are identified with demeaning terms
* Expecting certain items to always be in one's possession

OMG I'm a hazer!!!!! I think the definition of hazing has gotten so ridiculous.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by Virtuous Woman

OMG I'm a hazer!!!!! I think the definition of hazing has gotten so ridiculous.

I agree with much of what has been posted above. I particularly agree that the definition(s) is (are) stupid.

But, there's still a problem.

Depending on the state and/or campus, whether we agree with it or like it or not...

It's Still Illegal!
(Is that so hard to understand?)

That being the case, if you get caught you may lose your charter. If something unfortunate happens, no insurance company will honor a claim if the law has been broken.
(I don't understand why that is hard to understand either)

In my sorority, we do not haze at all. no matter what. new members do not have to do anything if they don't want to. the only thing they need to do is complete a new member education class. and even then there isn't a test or quiz and we never ask on the spot information. the point is, the girls should want to know these things. they should want to do things with us. if they didn't we would have realized they weren't interested in the sorority during recruitment and would have never given then a bid.

For me, the difference is that, as the example about the old Bavarian horn thing, that club was about hunting, so yeah, the members should know how to hunt. But making a girl do calisthenics, or my house cleaning or whatever else goes on (i don't pretend to know) doesn't prove to me that she is going to support me in a time of need, or be good at helping out at our benefit car wash, or bond with me during a retreat.

If a girl isn't going to do these things, even if not with me but one of my sisters, then i think she'd be smart enough not to join. maybe this is just because on my campus, sorority membership doesn't equal a status symbol. if you don't want to help with our philanthropies, participate in campus activities with us or become our sister, then don't join. knowing what the sorority does and everything it entails and still saying "yes, i want to be apart of this." is enough for me.

[Virtuous Woman]

A lot of what is considered hazing is also dependent on the org. A lot of what has been described as "subtle hazing" is silly. For instance, in Alpha Phi Omega, pledges are not supposed to wear letters (except for a pledge pin), does that mean we're hazing them because we're depriving them of privileges granted to other members?

I do not condone physically assaulting or mentally terrorizing someone as a membership requirement but I do not think that requiring a pledge to always have her/his pin and book is hazing.