[MysticCat]

I'm glad I'm having a slow day.

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

MysticCat: Not sure what you've been doing for the last 20 years, but you are confusing your constitutional law. First Amendment rights include the right to freely associate. Equal protection, on the other hand, is a Fourteenth Amendment matter. Toe separate issues, both being violated by the same act.

I'm well aware they're two seperate issues. It was your long post that seemed to confuse and conflate them.

As for the First Amendment, I wasn't confusing anything. Did you miss that when I gave the list of rights, I specifically pput them in the context of "expressive association"? I was merely quoting SCOTUS as to what that means:

Our decisions have referred to constitutionally protected "freedom of association" in two distinct senses. In one line of decisions, the Court has concluded that choices to enter into and maintain certain intimate human relationships must be secured against undue intrusion by the State because of the role of such relationships in safeguarding the individual freedom that is central to our constitutional scheme. In this respect, freedom of association receives protection as a fundamental element of personal liberty. In another set of decisions, the Court has recognized a right to associate for the purpose of engaging in those activities protected by the First Amendment -- speech, assembly, petition for the redress of grievances, and the exercise of religion. The Constitution guarantees freedom of association of this kind as an indispensable means of preserving other individual liberties.

Roberts v. United States Jaycees, 468 U.S. 609, 617-618 (1984) (emphasis added).

First Amendment Issue: As of right now, FGCU makes the argument that they aren't infringing upon our right to freely associate because they are "allowing" us to "be" on campus. In other words, they make the argument that they aren't infringing upon our rights by denying us meeting space on campus because we can technically "associate" with whomever we feel when we're out and about on school grounds, i.e., outside. This argument has been made before, and has failed. And you are right, Healy v. James, 408 U.S. 169, 183 (1972), holding that "there can be no doubt that denial of official recognition, without justification, to college organizations burdens of abridges that associational right. The primary impediment to free association flowing from nonrecognition is the denial of use of campus facilities for meetings and other appropriate purposes."

You do understand that Healy had to do with political speech? (Meanwhile, the BSA case involved religion and whether the BSA could limit membership to those who believe in God.) See my cite to Roberts above.

Here at FGCU, and this is where the 14th Amendment equal protection analysis comes into play, FGCU provides certain fraternities with campus facilities for meetings on campus, but is denying us that right. Thus, in one fell swoop they are infringing upon our 1st Amendment rights, and at the same time, by providing other fraternities with those rights, discriminating against us in violation of equal protection laws.

So far, FGCU has failed to articulate any legal justification for excluding us from usage of campus facilities.

I thought it was recognition you want, not just use of facilities.

Thus, MysticCat, as you can see (and this is not a shot at you) I am not grossly overstating the rights of expressive organizations. Were FGCU to ban all Greek life, they'd actually have a stronger legal argument than they do now. However, by recognizing certain groups, FGCU is legally bound to afford all student groups with the same opportunities.

The Fourteenth Amendment prohibits the school from treating similarly situated entities differently. Since nothing you have said has shown me that the Kappa Sig colony is similarly situated to the IFC chapters that actually followed the procedure for recognition, it still looks like you're overstating things to me.

But I'll give you this: you're managing to do it in a particularly condescending and arrogant way. Props for that. Perhaps you're on the right track after all and I just can't see it for all the hubris.