Wisconsin Capitol Building's "Holiday Tree"
 

Unfortunately, I'm not joking.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316368,00.html

Ugh. We've been having this debate at work lately.

It's interesting, at my (state) job, in my bureau, it's pretty much assumed that everyone's Christian and celebrates Christmas. Nativities are displayed, the cards I've received have all been religious (but one) and advertisements for the Christmas play several of my co-worker's church puts on went up as soon as we moved into our new office this month.

I'm not offended, I fit into their assumption, but I feel awkward because they don't consider that their next new intern could not fit this mold. Why should that person have to duck their head down or speak up and (potentially) face a tense office situation? And why do I suspect it's similar in many of the other offices?

I disagree with calling it a "Holiday Tree" no matter how non-religious the tree has become. I don't think Hanukkah bushes are all that popular, though they might be. But it is a symptom of the wider exclusion that someone might face.

If non-Christians don't want to deal with Christmas, they're a little screwed. I mean, is it offensive for me to put Christmas lights on my house because my neighbor might be a JW or Atheist? I had a roommate who was a passionate Atheist, but she put up a Christmas tree and lights. (Yes, I know, weird.) I just don't know if anyone HATES Christianity/Christmas THAT MUCH that it would make them tense or offended.

Why does it have to have an official name anyway? Anyone who sees a pine tree with ornaments, tinsel and lights on it is going to call it a Christmas tree. Do they have the "holiday tree police" who fine people who use the C word?

The government doesn't want to be sued for endorsing a religion.

O

http://a1m.org/sites/www.audienceone...hotos/Coin.jpg

RLY?

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thu...d_we_trust.jpg

no rly.

See City of Edmond v. Robinson, 68 F.3d 1226 (10th Cir., 1995).
http://www.law.emory.edu/10circuit/o...-6237.wpd.html

You messed it up.

http://netninja.com/images/lj/ya_rly.jpg


C'mon guy - get with your Internet memes. I realize you're soon to enter the high-stakes world of family law, but you're not "Old Out of Touch Guy" yet, brotha!

Oh, my crazy cheesy homeland. There are all sorts of fights going on about Christmas trees. In Green Bay there is a nativity set on the courthouse lawn, so somebody else erected a Wiccan display of some sort (I think a wreath with a five-pointed star) and people are all up in arms, so now somebody else wants to put up a Festivus pole...

While your point is a well-founded reminder that this country has always had christian roots, I don't think that the "in god we trust" references necessarily invoke the endorsement of any one religion. Every religion that I know of believes in god in some sort. However, I think it is a different thing to have a symbol of one religion's winter holiday without acknowledging others.

Our local courthouse has two christmas trees, and I am almost certain that the county paid to have them there (I personally watched county employees setting it up). When in a government building that is paid for by all taxpayers (not just christians) I personally am a fan of having a display that recognizes the cultural celebrations of all faiths. For instance, I find that having a display of a menorah, christmas tree, candle display, santa, etc. promotes a feeling that all beliefs and all holiday traditions are valuable and are part of the overall holiday spirit.

Slight hijack...

This thread reminds me of a clip of the new Huckabee holiday ad. Has anyone seen it aired? It features a bookcase that looks like a cross in the background (Huckabee says it was a coincidence) and Huckabee talking about the birth of christ, then wishing everyone a merry christmas. Huckabee was on the Today show and basically said people are too sensitive if they find the commercial offensive. Maybe he doesn't care about the Jewish voters out there?

Other politicians have holiday ads, like Obama. I'm pretty sure, though, that he says something like "happy holidays" if I remember the clip correctly.

I guess I would just hope that even though a majority of americans celebrate christmas, we know enough about the potential tyranny of majoritarian rule to acknowledge and respect the faiths of minorities as well, rather than telling them "suck it up -- you live in MY country and so you have to stand back and watch the government honor MY religion's holiday and don't even think about forcing me to acknowledge your inferior beliefs." That's at least the attitude I interpret from many "merry christmas" emphasizers these days.

I like this also. I'm a government contractor, and work with a lot of federal government employees. For the two years I've been on my project, at Christmas our office is decorated by people who want to. There's mini Christmas trees, there are still menorahs up with blue battery-operated lights, and in the fall, our muslim co-workers invited us to stay after to feast for Ramadan. I like all the diversity and culture, and no one seems to be offended since if they felt their culture wasn't represented - they could just bring something in also.

Which god does this refer to?

Yours or Mine? Or my neighbors'?

Or My wiccan friends', my jewish friends', my hindu friends', my catholic friends', my methodist friends', my republican friends', my democratic friends', my libertarian friends'........

Well, most of your Jewish friends aren't allowed to write the word "G-d" so your point, while well intentioned, is laughably short-sighted.

It's happened in Toronto before. And last year, a judge ordered a tree removed from a courthouse lobby.

Not all jewish people believe that this applies to "god" in english. My own understanding was that most jewish people think it is fine, but that might be because the jewish people I know tend to be on the more non-orthodox side. Jews that believe writing "god" is okay believe that the rule about not writing "god" down only applies in the ancient hebrew text. http://www.aish.com/rabbi/ATR_browse...tqak&offset=10

I think you likely understand that my point stands as an example of why saying something as inane as "ALL RELIGIONS SAY GOD SO IT'S NOT CHRISTIAN!" absolutely is not correct, considering the founding of the nation and the fact that, indeed, other religions do not refer to God in that way. "Most" may have been an overstatement, though, I'll agree.

It's happening again this year in Ottawa.

Choir drops 'Christmas' from carol
Teachers' Decision; Children to sing: 'Soon it will be festive day"

http://www.nationalpost.com/todays_p...html?id=181191

I think that maybe we're dealing with something that is not as black and white as saying "all religions say god so it's not christian" (which I don't think anyone said on this thread, but is your summary of either mine or sageoface's comments). I agree that while the statement "in god we trust" may have originally been referring to a christian god (and acknowledged such in my earlier post)... but the government making such a statement does not carry with it the overt christian symbolism as a christmas tree or nativity scene. I tend to think that the sentiments expressed in the phrase "in god we trust" are consistent with most other religions, since most acknowledge a higher power. In contrast, the sentiments expressed by say, mary holding a baby jesus, is not an idea that is interchangeable with other religions.

My bad.

Actually I think the founding fathers were very insightful in acknowledging a higher power "god" but to not delineate a specific "god". Government must grow to meet the needs of the entire population to be effective.

Yes they all were "christian" but the range of denominational belief is great.

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Foundin..._Religion.html

Religious Affiliation
of U.S. Founding Fathers - # of Founding Fathers - % of Founding Fathers
Episcopalian/Anglican - 88 - 54.7%
Presbyterian - 30 - 18.6%
Congregationalist - 27 - 16.8%
Quaker - 7 - 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/
German Reformed - 6 - 3.7%
Lutheran - 5 - 3.1%
Catholic - 3 - 1.9%
Huguenot - 3 - 1.9%
Unitarian - 3 - 1.9%
Methodist - 2 - 1.2%
Calvinist - 1 - 0.6%
TOTAL 204

Founding Father defined as one or more of the following:
- signed the Declaration of Independence
- signed the Articles of Confederation
- attended the Constitutional Convention of 1787
- signed the Constitution of the United States of America
- served as Senators in the First Federal Congress (1789-1791)
- served as U.S. Representatives in the First Federal Congress

"Silver Bells" also has the line "It's Christmas time in the city..." No mention of whether they sang "It's FESTIVE time in the city"

If they wanted to be more inclusive, they could have sung:

Frosty the Snowman
Jingle Bells
Winter Wonderland
Sleigh Ride

I don't disagree, but I think we lose something in translation in our efforts to fit the Founding Fathers into 2007 America - namely, that the language used is very Masonic, and likely was not intended to be open in the fashion that we consider it (although the basis of the founding of America would dictate openness to a certain degree, as well).

Here's the rub, though - the overwhelming majority, if not all (I'm not sure how we consider Calvinism nowadays to be honest) of those are indeed Christian, and the founding of the nation was intended to allow freedom to worship, but generally the freedom to worship whichever Christian God you choose. That's well and good, but it just doesn't apply to modern America - using the nation's founding as any sort of crutch on either side of this discussion seems difficult, if not impossible.

In God We Trust just really doesn't work for this particular argument, for that reason - if we're going to be "open" we can't rely on the word "God" to do our work for us. Many religions, including some practiced by hundreds of millions worldwide, don't fit the Christian ideal of "God" in that sense. I do apologize for being "snippy" before, but I think this may more accurately reflect my point here.

I'm not talking about non-Christians not wanting to deal with Christmas, I'm talking about them feeling pressured NOT to be able to celebrate/talk about/etc. their own holidays. I don't think a non-Christian in my office would feel comfortable talking about what they got for Hanukkah. It's not about limiting the majority, but about being aware of the minority. I'm still getting felt out by my coworkers as at least one of them isn't quite sure about the whole "Catholic" thing.

This is what I'm talking about. Awesome open environment.

Thank you kindly!:)

Amen! (oops, hope I didn't offend anyone with that.)

But at the same time- don't let it get you down.

In my personal experience, the VAST majority of people in this country have no problem with Christmas trees or being wished a Merry Christmas etc. And on the same note, I as a Christian have no trouble attending ceremonies of other religions or being greeted with seasonal tidings that pertain to other religious holidays.

It is always an honor to be greeted in the manner or included in the experience of a person's religion, and I treat it as such and am thankful for the sign of friendship it indicates.

The people who really fight these battles are, in my experience, in some way very unhappy with their own failed lives and this is how they can inflict themselves on everyone else and feel like they have power- and they do it because they realize they have noone to blame but themselves for their misery.

A dark thought perhaps, but one I keep in mind when I hear stories like this lest I get pulled into those people's own sense of paranoid hatred and start assuming all non-Christians are out to get us, when in fact it is just a few people who are so unhappy with themselves they will settle for sharing a little of their misery with anyone.

Well said.

All it takes is one person the feel "uncomfy" to ruin Christmas for the masses. It's not my fault your crazy mother raised you Jehova's Witness and you never got a Sega Genesis on Dec 25. The squeakiest wheel gets the oil I guess. And i'm sorry, but anyone who says that America wasn't founded as a Christian nation is just lost in life. Just my opinion.

Well then guess I lost in life then... see silly me thought that America was founded on Deist principles rejecting the idea of a "Christian" nation since it only lead to conflict between the various denominations, splinter sects, those who rejected the idea of a "Christian God" (but not God), and since many of those living in the colonies had fled religious persecution - you know the Enlightenment principles of no state religion but a belief in a higher being that those silly Founding Fathers wrote about?

Why yes Protestantism and Catholicism are both Christian... but Deism wasn't and isn't since it rejects the basic principles of Christianity.

Perhaps you should use some logic and/or research and apply it to the question of what Deism is and how it differs from Christianity, then apply what you discover to the principles of faith as outlined by the Founding Fathers of America.

PS> Incidentally the freedom to follow the Catholic faith wasn't really one of the founding principles given the virulent anti-Catholicism then (and some would argue now still) as evidenced by the outrage at the Quebec Act which guaranteed the freedom of the Catholic faith in Quebec and which was the final of the "Intolerable Acts".

True...but Huegenots HATED Catholics for the persecution they received at their hands.

Unitarians pretty much include anyone believing in a higher power (unity) but note the last phrase below...so that makes at least 3 not necessarily "christian".

"Unitarian Universalism (UUism) is a theologically liberal religious movement characterized by its support of a "free and responsible search for truth and meaning." This principle permits Unitarian Universalists a wide range of beliefs and practices. Unitarian Universalist congregations and fellowships tend to retain some Christian traditions such as Sunday worship that includes a sermon and singing of hymns, but do not necessarily identify themselves as Christians." The whole read is actually pretty interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism

Hey, Happy Winter Solstice/Yule Tide, everyone...

If "Christmas" is so offensive for whoever out there, I fully expect them to be at work on December 25th.

Yes because everyone controls whether or not their workplace is open based on their own personal beliefs.

I will be. Just as I expect off for Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah, Purim, et cetera, the Christians can expect Christmas, Easter, Epiphany... The Muslims for Eid Al-Fitr, Eid Al-Adha...

If they find it "offensive" then they can go soak their heads.

Thomas Jefferson. John Adams. John Quincy Adams. Abigail Adams. Benjamin Franklin. Paul Revere. Josiah Quincy. Thomas Paine. All Unitarians, which, by the way, is not an inherently Christian faith.

If you're going to be condescending, at least be accurate.

For the record, I am both Christian and Unitarian. But that is not always the case.

Interesting. I had always thought that Unitarians were Christian. I don't know, all the denominations practice differently but in my opinion if you follow the teachings of Christ you're a Christian.

I see that you've met them already.