Observations
 

Being new here and having inspected some threads, I am amazed at the dichotomy of opinions expressed by all the Greeks. I am considered "old school" (pledged pre-intake). I see alot of opinions that would have never been expressed in my neophyte days. I also noticed that many of the moderators are either straight intake or made in alumni chapters (not that that is good or bad, it just colors most of the opinions) Although I pledged and was hazed in an undergrad chapter, many years later I am active and financial. I have gotten an education by reading the threads. Man, have times changed. Peace yall.

Dawg, what differences do you notice? You hold a valuable opinion. Many are very sensitive about how they crossed, so they can not help but be defensive about certain subjects. Of course, most do not have a choice in the matter. They have to go with the program that is in place.

For the record, I pledged and I am proud of that because it was an organized process. It was led by experienced bruhs that knew what was supposed to be accomplished. They taught and they challenged us. They knew when to police the bruhs and when to let the bruhs wreck. I shed blood, sweat, and tears for Omega and I am still active and productive. And always will be.

And I'm gone
Roof

Dawg, that is good to hear about your process. Generally, I was speaking about other orgs. Having had an above ground pledge period and running around on the yard as a Lamp, was tremendous. I think all Greeks are being cheated by MIT. There was never a real vs. fake debate or paper vs pledging. There were skaters, but even they pledged. I don't see how one can be an Omega without being both a Lamp and a Dog. I have met members of each org who have no ideal of what their respective pledgees are called during Hell Week, but then again, there is no such thing. It is just that valuable traditions, history, bonding moments, and the essence of what the org is about is learned during pledging. I am just grateful that I pledged when the process had meaning. I could really write a book on the value of a good pledge program. Todays opinions on pledging are distorted because intake people think that it is about a beatdown and that was never really the case. Its about marching on the yard, greeting big bruhs in public, serenading the Deltas, being dressed alike, social silence, the Lamp Stare, the Dog Grit, not walking on grass, always running, never seen walking or eating in public, the unbreakable chain, six men living, sleeping, and eating together, never separated for six weeks, crossing "real" sands together, a sense of accomplishment and rightful entitlement. Knowing everyone on the yard gives you props because they saw and heard your hardships and know that you did something that they wish that they had the heart to do. Lawsuits were unheard of in the 80's (unless someone was permanently disfigured of killed) You couldn't sue for taking wood or getting your feelings hurt like people do now. Oh well, sorry for the sermon

Don't apologize for the truth bruh. It was said very well, and I agree. The pledge program is extremely important. Experiences and lessons that I will have for a lifetime came through my pledgeship, and I will pass it on. Traditions are what are at the core of our strength. It is more than could be put on paper and held by a paperclip. I guess that is why no one understands why we do the things that we do. I fear that we will lose these traditions ( no more dog night, no more turnback). Will we diversify out of existence. I have always thought that nothing could stop Omega but Omega.

Anyway, there aer many bruhs that feel strongly about it. The bruhs that made me, passed it on. And I will do the same.

And I'm gone

DoggyStyle82,

You bring up a point I've been screaming to make for a while. I am by no means what you would call "old skool" in that I pledged in '97. I will not disclose information about my process, for obvious reasons. But, here is my POV on pledging:

Like you, I think that the definition of "pledging" has been very distored over the years. To me, it has come to mean "hazing" when the two words are VERY different. Because of the new "interchangability" of the two words, most of the traditions you speak of like:

...are considered hazing although they are the very things that many greeks reminisce about with starry (and sometimes, teary eyes), and with smiles characteristic of a child remembering happy times and childhood friends. My cousins and I used to LOVE hearing pledge stories told by my mom, aunts, and uncles and their greek friends. I had huge expectations of what I'd go through, so it was quite a shock to find that the only way tradition could be carried on was "underground". Part of the fun for old-skool greeks was the above-yard pagentry of pledging; nowadays pledgees can't even dress alike!

I agree that many, many, many greek chapters have taken things WAY too far. In a public speaking class I did a presentation about hazing. My research findings would make your jaw drop; some of the things pledgees were put through were sickening, life-threatening, and even deadly! But I can't help but feel like the "new" definitation of "pledging" (i.e. hazing) isn't meant to keep these gruesome acts from occuring, but more to protect greek organizations in the face of lawsuits.

What do YOU think?

Coleman Luv!

Hazing has been around since the inception of Greek life. It is unfortunate that the fond recall that your relatives have is missing. The Omega that my son will pledge (hopefully) will not resemble what I knew. My memories are of hard, but not dangerous or life-threatening times. I would be interested in your research. Everyone screams about the dangers and hazards, but do you realize that hundreds of thousands of greeks pledged each year with only one or two noticable incidents (maiming or death). The real threat is lawsuits. I have 4 l.bs who did not make it. Under todays laws, any of them could have sued for 6 figures. Not becaused they got injured, but becaused they were hazed (took wood, dressed alike, ran , did errands) Ever hear one of your National officers tell a pledging story?. I personally know that one of our national officers was one of the most feared hazers in the state, now he toes the party line for fear of lawsuits. All of our respective national officers know that Pledging makes a better bruh/soror, if not member (it obviously did not dissuade them!) but they have to spit that anti-pledging propaganda for the suits. Todays underground pledging is dangerous because it is a bastardized version of the real thing and is not structured properly, nor are the hazers and pledgees physically or psychologically prepared. Therefore, injuries have mounted along with lawsuits and suspensions, split lines, paper vs. real, prospectives worried about getting a "beat down", and this pseudo gang mentality of some chapters. I never seen so many people proud of the fact that they did not pledge to get their membership. I have seen too many one weekend wonders and check writers. Have to stop rambling. Much love Soror.

Ditto. You are indeed an educator!
I notice that your e-mail addy isn't posted. I'd be really interested in talking privately. Could you e-mail me?

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Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.
Pi Kappa, SP97
#3 of QUINTESSENCE

Oh my god I totally agree. I'm new to this website, but I have noticed that many take the politically correct stanz. I don't know if it is a part of being found out by saying this is how things were for me or what. I believe in being made right and thats all I'm gonna say. I have found that people want to take the easy route. Hit me on email 411 or DoggieStyle at smcallister@falkeinc.com

I am new to the board but came across your comments about pledging and hazing. Fortunately I come from a chapter that did allow our members to be "pledged".

It was mandatory that members dressed a like, exercised, walked in a straight line, etc. Our advisors informed our pyramid club that there is a pledge process and if they think that there wasn't then they should decline their membership.

I was MADE in '95.

oo-oop!

Good to hear that Law & Order. I am exactly that kind of advisor.

Bruz,

As a Quethousand bruh, fresh off the sands, I am proud to say that my chapter made me right. I have had the pleasure of being made by older bruz who have maintained our beloved traditions in tact. In today's society we do have to be tactful or creative because of those haters, but we have still persevered...

Many are fixated on the physical aspect because it is tangible but that's the easy part and the bruz know what I mean. The comradie, the bonding, the bleeding, sweating for one common goal to enter into OMEGALAND is a blessed feeling. Life is not easy thus...through strife one becomes a stronger man, person, unit, brother.....

There are extreme cases where things happen...but life is not PERFECT!!!!

The important thing is to comprehend that if our ancestors who were slaves persevered and became stonger under far more extreme circumstances....then we need to be continuosly grateful and continue to rise. For those who choose simpler routes oh well....

The value of our fraternity is not in numbers but in men, real men......

Roo Older Bruz!!!!!

Hey, hey!! Coleman Luv to all the bruhs (ooooop-roooo) and MAD Delta Luv to all my sorors (ooooo-ooop). Old skool soror in da' house (1986)!!

Frats, I agree. When pledging was outlawed and MIP was instituted, many of the good traditions suffered. I pray we come to a happy medium where a tight bond is formed thru traditons but people do not have to fear for their lives.

I'm out....



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mccoyred

Dynamic
Salient
Temperate

Latin Kings, good to hear that Dawg. People who have not pledged are only getting about 50% of the experience. My chapter bruhs and I spend more time talking war stories and chapter pledge situations than about any other thing. Bonding is the key. Whats up McCoyRed. C=Luv to you to.

Men of Omega Psi Phi i hope you don't mind a pretty and intelligent soror of AKA posting on your board. its good to see all the activity in here. DoggyStlye82 i agree and hear your points. my question to you since you are old school and know what real pledging is like, is what do you suggest perspective members or neos do if their chapter does not provide a pledge process for them? also i am the last one to say that MIP is wonderful cause it ain't, with that said should those who come thru mip be ashamed of their process? its not their fault after all that pledging is illegal now? and lastly if your child decided to join your organization would you see them or appreciate others who see them as paper/not really a member due to something they had no control over. thank you.

Positivley AKA, it is good to see someone actually respect an opinion that they differ with and seek dialog rather than argument. If and when my son pledges (my org hopefully), I would hope that he has the opportunity to pledge and not MIP. For other orgs, I cannot speak, but to get the full essence, meaning, and purpose of Omega, one must pledge. The training, bonding, and life skills and lessons learned are integral to the development of the 4 Cardinal Principles. The many young men that you see misrepresenting Omega are victims of a haphazard process. NHPC groups should return to some semblance of their previous pledge process. We can either kill ourselves externally with lawsuits or internally with the divisiveness, paper vs real, suspended chapters, and lack of brotherhood/sisterhood that has resulted from MIP. It is not a prospectives fault. They are the victim. We have way more drama in Greekdom now. No wonder GDIs and the general public think that we are irrelevant (other than stepshows or parties) They see easy membership, lines of 60 to 100, disunity in chapters, bruhs fighting bruhs, sorors disrespecting sorors, Greeks didsrespecting Greeks, young members hating older ones. IT IS NOT ATTRACTIVE!!! These problems were around on a smaller level, but have been excaserbated and magnified by MIP. By the time my son gets to college I doubt if any NPHC org will exist in its undergraduate form.

Sorry about the long post. To answer your question, nothing can be done. New members are in the proverbial Catch 22. Intake programs are designed to meet the specifications of lawyers, banks and insurance companies. Intake has nothing to do with creating and fostering the fraternal spirit, training new members, nor indoctrinating them into the philosophy and purpose of the org. MIP is designed to gain membership in compliance with non-members guidelines. There used to be a distinct difference among the 4 sororities. Now they are indistinguishable. Now interests do research on the net, read In Search of Sisterhood, go to everyones rush, knows everyones call, party strolls, then decide on a sorority, 2 weeks later write a check and a weekend of MIP, voila!, you have an instant AKADSTZPBSGR. You might as well flip a coin. It is the pledge process (the indoctrination period) that differentiates the org. Without that, you basically have the same org, different colors.

So, with that in mind, do you think it's possible for someone who wasn't pledged to pledge someone else? In other words, what about those chapters that are by-the-book (i.e. paper, cat, skaters, etc.) and ostracized by local collegiate chapters because of it? How can pledging become the new chapter trend if no one in the chapter has pledged? I know of chapters like this, but it's difficult to know whether or not someone who isn't a part of the chapter can step in to help out when the current chapter members are anti-pledging.



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Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.
Pi Kappa, SP97
#3 of QUINTESSENCE

Another thought...

Reading back over PositivelyAKA's post, I thought of another question for you, Frat:

How do you feel about post-pledging those who came through the MIP? This happens in many chapters-- namely those known for being paper. Is post-pledging the answer?

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Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.
Pi Kappa, SP97
#3 of QUINTESSENCE

thanks DoggyStyle82 couldn't have said it better myself. peace.

411: you open another can of worms. Pledging is a carefully constructed process. It can easily degenerate into hazing in the wrong (untrained) hands. When you haven't ever been "on line" you don't know where to draw the line. A person who has never pledged, but then pledges someone else is probably doing it for the wrong reasons. The situation is most dangerous when a chapter loses its continuity. There is just too much danger with unpledged or half-pledged (only hazed) people overseeing a line.

411: BTW, if you ain't never been in the cut, you should not ever swing, unless you are willing to take the some first.(speaking for myself only).

411: I'll have to respond to your private e-mail. Look for it soon.

I was just passing through and thought I would comment. What differences are you referring to? I am very curious to know what you are talking about.

As for pledging, it will never end. But in my opinion, people do crazier and more dangerous things now then they did then, because certain old heads can't let go of the process and keep making the younger greeks feel like they need to be "made right"
in order to get half the respect.

The powers that be have pushed membership intake on us and refuse to listen when we say that it's not working. They point to chapters that seem to have sucessful intake processes and say, see that's a good example of the validity of MIP...but in all actuality these same chapters are pledging underground.

I am not saying that I am for or against anything. But what I am saying is that a real solution must be met in order to correct the problem because the band-aid called MIP is not working.

I am proud to say I earned my letters, and can't a soul take that away from me!

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The Epitome of Beauty, Style, and Grace, Always Exemplifying Good Taste, A Zeta Woman, A Finer Woman, That's Me!

I find your arguments to be interesting. AFter all the deaths, mamming, paralysis, broken bones, organs, etc., now you guys are reflecting on the RIGHT way to pledge. Where were you when things were getting out of hand? You know where you were? Right there in the middle of the madness! All you ole school Bruhs criticizing the new members who did MIP need to stop. Its ALL YOUR FAULT why pledging was banned. If yall was policing back then, then you would be pledging others, legally now. Don't blame the new people for something YOU CREATED. Enough is enough!!!!!

HUDSON:

What is the source of your anger? This seems kind of personal to you,

I can truthfully say that I have never hurt, injured, emotionally wounded, nor scarred anyone under my jurisdiction. Despite what you may think that you know, there were relatively few deaths and maimings (1 is too many) relative to the number of succesful initiations.

Perception and perspective is the key.

CUJO87:

Team, is that Pi Mu at San Diego? Anyway, I see that we are in agreement.

Anyway, it was not Old School pledging that caused MIP. It was the result of new state laws as to what constituted hazing and certain specific HBCU's (most notably Morehouse) who had major incidents. Since the NHPC did not or could not reasonably argue the cultural significance and the necesssity of our traditions, traditional pledging was done away with altogether and replaced with intake.

I don't argue against Intake members, just the intake process.

That may be true. But what was the nature or reason for the new state laws. How or why did they come about. Because of the things that got out of hand prior to 1990. I'm not arguing with the intentions and the value of pledging. I just find it that some greeks members are in denial of why the MIP Process came about. I think the MIP process is good thing because it forces those who chooses to participate in an underground process to be more careful. Ofcourse you still have those who don't give a f--k. They risk expulsion just they could beat people unconscious.

I am still not sure where you are coming from or what you have experienced. The new state laws came about because of an advocacy group called "CHUCK". A white woman whose white son died pledging a white fraternity. He died from the result of a stupid drinking prank that is more typical of white frats than Black. The family could not press charges or have the perpetrators discipline by the school or the law. As a result of her advocacy, similar to MADD, many states adopted stricter anti-hazing laws, many of which made very innocuous activities to be considered hazing. None of these laws were as a result of any NPHC hazing incidents.

Wow you learn something new everyday. I go to Morehouse and I didn't know that. I know that a lot of the frats have just recently come back to campus(Alphas in 98, Ques in 99, Kappas 00-01); but no one but the frats and the administration really knows for sure what happened. There have been a RIDICULOUS amount of rumors though.

BTW, Do you know anything about Morehouse's process now? If so what do you think about it? I have my own opinions on it, I just want to see some others.

much respect...

Ahhh...just the thread that i was looking for...

*let me preface my question by offering a story*

Does everyone remember A Different World?
when A Different World first aired I was a sophomore in high school. And I loved it! So did my parents. We would watch it every thursday (reminiscing on when "black" television was informative and not a minstrel show). There were two episodes that now that I watch it every morning that I absolutely love! The first one was when Ron was pledging Kappa Lambda Nu (a fictional fraternity...for those that don't know)...and the second was when Kim was pledging Whitley's sorority Alpha Delta Rho (another fictional organization).

I remember watching the first episode about Ron with my mom...and watching the twinkle in her eyes as she "took a stroll down memory lane". It was also the episode that boosted me for my cotillion that was to happen in the spring with her sorority. She and I talked that evening about her experience on line back in the hmmmm...late 50's early 60's. Yes, she went through some sh*t...and she also experienced some great highs. But she never regreted the experience.

Later...I saw the episode when Kim was pledging and then and until this day I get pissed with her. So what she was a pre-med major and had two jobs...if "Big Sister Gorgeous One" (Whitley's name) told her to get up and get her breakfast at 5am then damn well she better do it! And you know what...I was pissed that she rallied the other line members to her side. AND SHE STILL GOT IN! Nah! I was angered because Kim did not know nor did not consider the value of what she was learning. Sisterhood above all else. Unity and devotion to the "history of Alpha Delta Rho"...you feel me? I had more respect for Ron and how he showed that Brotherhood was all for one and one for all. There is no time for "I" in brotherhood.

I am saying all this because i'm sure by now that Doggystyle82 is shocked that for once I agree.

Although I am not a greek...and I do bereave those who were killed and am saddened by those who were maimed by hazing. I must also say that those are exceptions to the rule. And if you look at the cases for the most part these incidences happened...after MIP.

My question is...

It is understood that Old Skool Greeks are not as "accepting" of those who are "made" by the MIP. But it is also understood that anyone who pledges now will, for the most part, be "made" through that process...and therefore they are technically victims of it and not always willing participants.
If you could restructure the pledging process by incorporating aspects of the MIP and the "old skool" way of pledging what would it be?
AND
Why has this not been done?
AND
What does one do with a member who is a "mad hazer" who consistently abuses and misuses their power?

*just a personal spin before i end*

these things are the things that i was told by my mom (of course in sorority form) and other friends that made them desire and pursue their respective organizations more. when i toured HBCU's as a 13-15 year old i remember seeing folx on line. And thinking damn...that is tight!

While I do not agree with being physically emotionally abused...I do believe that certain forms of the old skool way are some things that bind men and women together.

As I end this I will just say that I have in the past been ridiculed for thinking this way. Those who ridicule me say..."you don't know what it was like! it was horrible! and you don't respect yourself if you will let someone make you do something!" You can find these statements in many places on the net...if you voice the opinion (non-greek and greek alike) that there is some validity to the old skool way of pledging.

I just want to know how can there be a happy medium?

Peace

I just don't understand why you would insult the MIP Process and the new members who chose to be initiated through it only. It was the activities of the old school members why MIP is in place today.

THe mip Procees in my opinion is part of the problem. The mip process encouraged and continues to encourage more underground pledging. The people who go through an underground process do not fully experience nor understand what a "old School" Process is about, it certainly is not about trying to hurt or injure someone but to form an eternal bond,if you can notunderstand this then maybe you too missed an important part of your process.

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Omega Psi Phi
Spr87 PM
Ace - Trinymphods

Well put, Soror. Sometimes we get caught up in talking about what is wrong with a thing. I appreciate the suggestons instead of just complaints.

MCCOYRED:

We are of the same era and I see that we pretty much think alike on this subject. Our National bodies are in a Catch -22. Omega was the last org to adopt Intake and we almost did not do it (it was implemented without knowledge/consent of the general membership, but that is another story). The simple fact is, that if you are not in compliance with current state law, your org cannot be legally insured, you violate your tax-exempt status and can be stripped of it, no risk management underwriter will touch you, and most college campuses will revoke your status as a legal, campus recognized organization. Yes, the NPHC should lobby for the return to our non-hazing pledge traditions. But as long as we are in an anti-Greek climate and lawyers see dollar signs, the laws will not change. Did you know that there is a white lawyer based in MD whose practice is solely based on suing Black fraternities and sororities for hazing?

I wish we could go back because interests do have different expectations now and that leads to most of the so-called hazing incidents. we old-schoolers arer to blame when we glorify the past but then again, we know how it is supposed to be.

LASTPOET: glad that we agree on something. Your mom sounds like my kind of woman.

A big problem I see is that interesteds feel they hold some kind of power--like they are the shot-callers, if you will. They know the anti-hazing laws are there, so they come into the process with a "you-can't-f%$#-with-me" attitude. There is little to no humility left, which is sad. I am not saying that humbling yourself means subjecting yourself to any and everything and living in total fear; I am saying that interesteds need to start realizing that we know what our orgs are looking for in prospective members, and that we know what they need to gain from the pledgeship in order to value and appreciate their familyhood. Nowadays, you've got pledgees calling bluffs and making threats, while we're "giving in" to save our chapters and keep our orgs out of the news over something that shouldn't even come close to being considered hazing (like dressing alike), but it is.

Pledging vs. Hazing. That's the issue. Although they aren't the same, the law has made them synonyms.




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Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.
Pi Kappa, SP97
#3 of QUINTESSENCE

Ms. Quintessence, you are so right. This is especially true of legacies and those interests who silent monitor Greek boards. They know that certain things that members consider "pledging" are technically or legally "hazing" and feel empowered to flaunt the inadequacies of the MIP, such as dropping dime when they are not accepted or refusing to humble themselves to "chapter traditions" . That is why orgs are full of "research" members and not "pledged" members

Coleman Luv to my Bruhs! and CONGRATULATIONS to DoggyStyle! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

As an Old Skooler who pledged in 1986 and made lines up until 1989, right before MIP, I can say that it was not the mentality of the sorors/frats but the changed mentality of the people who were applying for membership. The selection process changed and the mentality of applicants changed along with the 'law of the land'.

Pledging is/was not the problem, the definition of hazing is the problem.

How can we address the problem?
-first suspend intake for all orgs
-develop and STICK TO revised selection guidelines
-reinstitute interest groups and set guidelines for them
-reinstitute intake with well-defined PLEDGING guidelines
-TRAIN sorors/frats to perform pledging properly
-lobby to update the 'law' regarding hazing
-educate the public about what is RIGHT about pledging

Just some thoughts but I don't know how they can be implemented in this litigious society.



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MCCOYRED
Mu Psi '86
BaltCo Alumnae

Dynamic...Salient...Temperate...Since 1913

Obviously you have a point to espouse and nothing will change your mind. If you don't want to pledge to be in a fraternity, the Boy Scouts, 100 Black Men, Urban League, or whatever civic organization, is always on the lookout for men to participate. If what it takes to get into a fraternity is not for you, look elsewhere.

So, Hudson-- What are YOU proposing?

Since (let you tell it) those of us on the inside don't have the answers, I'm interested in what YOU think is the best way. Sounds to me like you're saying that, no matter what is done, there will still be extremities. We could give "hazers" the death penalty, but the "hazee" will still have been hurt. So, what are you suggesting we do, short of somehow programming members to be "Stepford Greeks" who all act and think exactly alike?

You've stated the obvious-- that no matter what the rules and laws, s%$@ may still happen. So, unless YOU have the secret formula and are willing to share it, then Doggy is right-- the solution is for you and other GDIs to simply not join if you are that concerned about the negatives of pledging.

And I'm Out...

the411

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Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.
Pi Kappa, SP97
#3 of QUINTESSENCE

But that is the way it is now. The change to MIP has not ended violent hazing. Some argue it has increased it and in some places encoraged it. We still deal with it after the fact. Allowing pledging does not prevent prosecution of hazers.