Racial Conflict
 

I was approach by a prejudice African-American man today, and we talk about Greek life in general. He told me that Black Greek organizations should not allow other races to be members. I was very offended by his comment because I don't believe in segregation, but it striked a question in my heart. Are there really organizations that feel the same way?

Do you represent your entire organization?

They shouldn't allow whites in, but we should get the ability to exclude blacks from ours (we do anyways so it doesn't really matter...only one black guy went through rush last year and got cut all the way through)

Yes I do, but it hurts to know that some people are still holding on to negative issues of the past.

Who cares, let organizations take whoever they want for whatever reason they want.

Huh?
 

I think freedom to choose who you want to have in your group is important and is central to the idea of private association. So in principle, a group should be allowed to exclude whoever they want for whatever reasons they want.

But the practice of excluding people based on race is stupid on several different levels.

The ideals of many IFC and NPC groups transcend race, and if you are limiting your membership in a racial way, you're probably in violation of your own group's policies, your school's policy AND you're weakening your group over time because you're excluding some great folks.

I suspect that racial identity is to more central to NPHC groups. Since they were founded specifically to address the needs of black students, it's possible that racial identity could be at the heart of their organizations. If that's the case, then race, or more importantly attitudes about race, could be a legitimate membership consideration, in my opinion.

But since most IFC groups and NPC groups didn't found themselves with racial identity at the heart of their creed (of if they did, they won't admit it now) it's hard to see why race should be a factor.

I'm aware that my own chapter has a history with this issue, and if you want to talk about it, I'll PM about it, but I don't have any real insight or particulars.

gammagirl04, based on the comments of Elephant Walk, it's obviously not in the past--don't fool yourself. Most people don't go around yelling "say it loud, i'm racist and i'm proud." Be aware. Anyway, it is my organization's official policy not to discriminate and we do have white members (as does the guy's you mentioned if he is a part of the D9). I have no problem with it as long as white candidates support the agenda of our organization, which is to address and remedy the challenges of the African American community. The white members that I am familiar with have a unique and heartfelt sensitivity to the African American experience and their role in it. Our main goal in serving the African American community is to right the wrongs inflicted(internally and externally) not to be segregationists.

and shinerbock, organizations have the right to. It seems as though she's asking about the morality of the issue.

Alphagamuga. . . well said.

I think there are good and bad reasons for it. To be honest, the huge, and I mean huge majority of minorities on our campus wouldn't fit in well in my chapter. Its not exclusion based on color, its based on culture, interests, etc...

I think groups should have the right to exclude who they want for whatever reason they want...Let them deal with it. Is it stupid? Sure, it can be, but let them make their own decisions.

I am not trying to be funny but is English a second language for you?

Other than that, do a GC search and you'll find this topic discussed in some way, shape or form. Nothing new under the sun.

In many instances I agree, but you know that social class is just a proxy for race in this country.

gammagirl04 I understand that you were offended, but that's the way it is. It's unfortunate that he said that to you, but racism is still alive and well. At the turn of the 20th century my Fraternity's founders were not aloud in white organizations, so they decided to start their own and at the same time they made it a Fraternity that doesn't exclude anyone based own race, religion, or creed. Because of this, we have quite a few white members in our organization. Today most white fraternities and sororities still exclude African Americans from joining, based simply on the color of their skin. It doesn't surprise me though, because that's just how a lot of European Americans are. Always have been, always will be.

I wouldn't say most. It's not national policy for any IFC/NIC/NPC GLO and while some chapters may do so, (as per Elephant Walk) many campuses extend bids to rushees regardless of race.

Well, I can't say you're wrong, but the reason why I disagree is because so many white clubs and organizations still do this today. My uncle is a member of this really rich country club and when my dad and I went in there together with my uncle, we all got looked at like we didn't belong there. The staff there that know my uncle were great but some of the customers looked at us like African Americans aren't supposed to have any money. I've read books that that said that many white frats and sororities exclude blacks. So, again I have to disagree with you. Some alow it but that's very few.

Well, all I can say is that books are outdated.

What region of the country are you in? I know that attitudes in the south are much different from other regions. Us Midwesterners don't tend to see things in quite the same way sometimes. I can tell you that every GLO on my campus (5 sororities and 13 fraternities) had non-white members of every variety. Not bad for a fairly non-diverse campus. And they were by no means "tokens" either. At the same time, the NPHC orgs didn't have a very strong on campus presence except maybe through the BSA. (They weren't recognized campus organizations and didn't use campus facilities)

While that's just a small sample, it seems to hold true based on other people's experiences.
I don't deny there is and was discrimination, but I don't want you to have the perception that all of us sorority girls and fraternity boys share the views of people like Elephant Walk...

Drolefille, you make great points, but one of the books I was reading was only written about 4 years ago. That's very current. I live in the northeast, and my parents were both born and raised in the south, so I know how it is. Elephantwalk is right. Racism is still happening in these organizations. Think about it, all of their founders would have never let anyone black in there organizations, and I know that when most of these organizations were founded a lot of African American weren't attending these schools because they weren't allowed to. But if they were allowed to attend your founders as well as the rest of them would have never allowed this to happen, based on one simple thing. The color of someones skin. How ridiculous is that. It's still happening. I think that's great that it doesn't happen as much where you pledged at, but I still think most of them still exclude blacks. I went to a historically black college and there were a few whites that attended and one of the guys wanted to join my frat. Everyone liked him, and we couldn't think of any reason to cut him. It was his senior year so he decided not to, but we didn't look at his color. Our founders would have turned over in their graves if we excluded him based on his color. He would have made a great addition to Kappa.

Agreed. It's more a point of money, not race. That's why we also hate white trash, guidos (new money usually), and other white sects.

So Elephant Walk, let me get this straight. Your fraternity chapter only offers bids to old money, white, southern boys that allow themselves to be hazed? Do you use religion as a qualifier as well? (only Protestants, etc.).

It is your chapter and if that's the way you want to do it, then it is your right (well, not the hazing part but that is a different thread). It is just foreign to me- I went to school in the midwest where even the traditionally southern fraternities had diversity. As for the sororities, I don't remember a single time when race was brought up during membership selection.

Unfortunately many of our founders were rascist, passively if not actively. However I think we feel that if they were alive today, they would have changed along with society. The women we pledge and initiate uphold our values no matter their color. I guess I just take issue with the word "most" when I can't see that being the case.

Out of curiousity, what do you think of a self segregated Greek system? One where there aren't any racial restrictions, but the black students go specifically to NPHC groups and never even look at NPC/IFC and the white students only consider NPC/IFC. Do you feel like somewthing is going wrong there or that something is going right? (This is just a question not somepoint I'm making, I'm curious)

Sometimes I think the perception is that "they" (being the outsider to whichever group) wouldn't be accepted, so they never try. But I don't know.

It is scary to me that you think "hating" people is something to be proud of. :eek: At least you're honest though---I guess.

Which is funny to me because only the people who make up the rules through cultural capital can define their own trashiness as acceptable and "high class" whereas the trashiness of others is deemed "low class."

;)

I've been watching wealthy white families act like trash for much of my life. Binge drinking, rowdy public displays, and more. Basically, things they wouldn't do in the streets of our quiet neighborhoods (although many were alcoholics behind closed doors) but they would do them on Family Weekends or in general public areas. Embarassing.

I just don't understand why people view it as a problem. Everyone excludes. Black people often segregate themselves, and I fail to see anything wrong with that. They often have more in common with other black people, and share common interests and goals. I just think its stupid to go out of your way to achieve diversity. Once again diversity =/= mixed races. You can have plenty of diversity in an all white or all black group. If your group wants to have a lot of different cultures and view points in it, go for it, enjoy. As for my fraternity, the reason we joined a fraternity is to be around people with common interests. If I wanted to be in a multi-cultural environment with a host of viewpoints, ideologies and faiths, I'd have joined....THE WORLD.

wealth does not equal high class, and lack of wealth does not equal white trash. i have known plenty of people who were not rich, but were admired in the community in which they lived-they were not considered white trash.

i have also known rich people who definately were white trash-people much like the wealthy people that dstchaos described. to me trashy has more to do with actions than with ones bank account.

please try not to generalize about southern sororities and fraternities not offering membership to blacks-because that is just not true. off the top of my head i can name several npc and ifc chapters that have black members.

shinerbock, point well taken. Most people gravitate toward others like themselves because 1) when navigating daily life, it's just easier and 2) we all enjoy the validation we receive spiritually and emotionally (especially when we are young.) The biggest problem occurs when "the fraternity" thinks that a university, the US Government or a Company (often one that does business with public institutions) is an extension of it's frat house. Often when the members of the organizations grow up, they continue to promote their friends, frat brothers etc. for positions of power and have the audicity to say (or wonder why) they don't know any people that aren't like them. Hence the remedy. . . affirmative action. It's dishonest to say that it doesn't happen and that when other people speak to it they are practicing "reverse racism".

When we are young, such things are considered "kids just having fun." When we go out into the real world, it has a much more serious affect. Generations of people don't receive educations and then don't have access to job opportunities. Then economic hardship follows and the cycle continues. If you adhere to the "traditional American values" of opportunity and equality for all, then start now. The principles we practice when we are young are the ones we typically take into adulthood.

I've been watching wealthy black families act like trash for much of my life....they're called rappers. Ever seen master p and flavor flav?

Flavor flav probably isn't wealthy. I personally know a former platinum selling artist who is in Flavor flav's category (i.e., a has-been as far as the music scene is concerned). The guy's best chance at a good pay day related to his fame is a VH1 show much like flav has been doing. He actually has nothing left from his music days, his record label screwed him over badly -- something I understand is pretty much the norm.

Everyone excludes to an extent because much of it is segregation by choice. However, all segregation by race and class in this society is not by choice. What that exclusion and segregation entails is what the discussion should really be about.

Common interests, well generally speaking people don't give people of other races the benefit of the doubt when it comes to common interests. For instance, I find that many white people think that having something in common with a black person means having to listen to a certain type of music or say things like "some of my best friends are black" or "to me you're not black...I don't see color." They fail to see that there are black people in different social classes and with different interests who you can have fun with without having to feel cautious over the interaction. But these blacks are still very in tune with their racial identity and don't want others to gloss over it or make a caricature out of it just to be friends with them.

Don't just tolerate me, try to understand me and I will give you the same respect.

Flavor Flav isn't wealthy--he's not even rich. However, Master p has managed to accumulate wealth through his companies and passed it down to his children. When's the last time you've seen Master P act like anything, btw?

Is that the only example of black or wealth that you could think of? :eek:

On another note, I sense that you don't really know what wealth is. Do you have as much in common with your friends as they assume that you do. :eek:

My point, exactly.

The Midwest and North are completely different than the South......you have to understand that. I wouldn't have exactly put it like ElephantWalk, but if a chapter wants to bid only a certain type of guy from certain areas (like most top Southern chapters do) then it is their right to do so.

Like some at the university of alabama? Do we even NEED to go there?;)

I can too....and I hate to say it, but those chapters are not good at their respective campuses....at all.

DSTS, I see what you're saying, and nobody ever denies that there are some minorities who probably have things in common with me or my fraternity. However, we're using pretty isolated cases here. Sure, I'm generalizing, but the majority of black kids I went to college with had no desire to be in my fraternity, nor did they have much in common with us. Theres also a difference between people we can have fun with and people you'd want in your group. Recruits and football players go to Auburn fraternity parties sometimes, and I'm sure they usually have a good time. However, that doesn't mean they'd want to be in the fraternity, nor does it mean we'd want them to be. I just don't see the point in being "diverse" for diversity's sake. If they come, let them come, but I see no reason to make some concerted effort to get a black guy to join.

Minerva, I don't think its wrong to have connections. Do some people get screwed out because of it? Sure, but generally the people who get those benefits are pretty qualified. I won't lie, I probably got my DC internships because of my fraternity affiliation and my family. That being said, I'm not unqualified to get them, and its something other applicants with similar resume's didn't have. Now, if its an obvious abuse of privilege, then I'd probably have a problem with it. But a lot of the time, people with power have friends and associates who happen to be some of the best and the brightest, and thats a pretty good pool to choose from.

you went there blackandgold, not anyone else.

i am guessing that you are referring to the brouhaha that supposedly happened when gamma phi beta extended a bid to a black woman? they saw a young woman who they thought would make a great member. it was other people(including the campus newspaper) that wanted to make a big deal out if it.

i was actually referring to the zta chapter at fsu, the zta chapter at samford, the zta chapter at ucf, the zta chapter at stetson(their president last year was a black woman), the pi kappa alpha chapter at fsu, the theta chi chapter at ucf, and the phi kappa psi chapter at auburn. they all have black members, to mention just a few.

macallan- the fsu ztas, the samford ztas, the ucf ztas and the fsu pikes ARE among the tops on their respective campuses. i cannot speak for the others.

no offense, but I went to Auburn, whats a phi sig?

none taken-i will have to look up the chapter to make sure i have the name correct.

oops- it is phi kappa psi at auburn.

No I was not thinking explicitly about the member that joined GFB, but rather that there had to be a big deal about it. If it was such a regular phenomenon, why the "bruhaha?" As far as I know, there have been a limited number of black women to join in the NPC sororities there.

Is anyone on here from Alabama that could speak on this? Am I off base?

no one said that blacks joining npc or ifc groups in the south was a regular thing. someone implied that southern sororities and fraternities do not have black members and i was trying to let them see that that is not true.

before we can determine if blacks joining npc and ifc groups is common or rare, we would have to know how many blacks participated in npc or ifc recruitment and of those people, how many were extended a bid.

to take it further, we would need to know the reason that those who were not extended a bid, did not receive one. did they have a gpa that was at or above the gpa requirement of panhellenic, but had a gpa that did not meet the sorority's required gpa? i don't know why , but it seems that often the required gpa to participate in recruitment is lower than many of the sororities required gpa.

did they decide that they did not have the time to devote to the pledgeship?

was the cost prohibitive?

were they offered a bid, but decided that that chapter was not for them?

if they were not offered a bid, were they on the bid list, but that chapter reached quota before they got to that person?

if they were dropped by the chapter, was if because they were black, or was it because the member rushing the pnm did not mesh well with the pnm?

kk_gphib_01 is an alumna of the Alabama Gamma Phi chapter you spoke of and was a collegian when her chapter became the first NPC on campus to integrate in 2003.

There have been a limited number of black women to join in the NPC sororities at Alabama because there are a limited number of black women that choose to register to rush. I only saw one black woman go through rush the four years I was there.

I know a little about yachts, yes.

I don't know about the ztas...however Pikes are not tops at FSU. We aren't allowed to have conversations like this here, but they are far from it. The big house isn't a factor, it's the people.