Little Problem
 

I received a bid from a fraternity, and I'm extremely interested, but I'm an atheist. I didn't want to tell them, because they formally gave me the bid, and it would have ruined the "mood." But does this really matter?

It depends on the fraternity. If it's Kappa Sigma, then you have to decline a bid. In Kappa Sigma, it is a requirement that you believe in some form of religious deity/higher being. If it's not, then I say go for it. If you're still uncomfortable with it, talk to the president/pledgemaster about it, or it may not be the fraternity for you after all.

I wouldn't use the word athiest...I would use the word "agnostic" when explaining to them.

Athiest is more of a negative connotation and goes way beyond not believing in God....I think of Athiests not only believing in the non-existance of God, but dead and determined that no one else should either.

Agnostic is what more so-called "athiests" are....they just don't believe in any type of religion, and believe that you are born, you live, you die, and that's it. There is nothing wrong with that, if that is what you believe.

That is what makes America beautiful.

As you can see, one sounds alot less intimidating than the other.

Yeah, athiests believe there is no God or anything similar. Agnostics believe in a "higher power".

actually, atheists don't believe in the existance of god, while agnostics don't believe in god, but concede that one could exist.

Um, going by the words themselves, isn't
agnositic "without knowledge" (meaning you can't really make a claim about the existance of God) and atheist "without god/s*" or "without a belief in god/s*" ?

So, it seems to me that, although agnostic may carry a more positive meaning for believers, it's probably actually wrong to regard it as some kind of sort of atheism lite. Some people know that they don't believe in God, and if they don't believe, they probably shouldn't misrepresent that their position. I think a declaration of "agnositicism" would led to a lot of attempts to convince the new member of religious faith, which I think would be super frustrating to an atheist.

If you know you don't believe, original poster, I'd talk it over with the person in charge of new members or ritual. That person will be able to tell you how much the ideals of the fraternity will be at odds with your lack of belief.

My experience as a Catholic in a group that turned out to have a lot of Southern Baptists was that particular religious beliefs didn't come up that much, but that sharing the same general faith made prayers before meals more comfortable than they would have been for any non-Christian.

(*The wikipedia entry indicated it was from ancient Greek, which is why I'm not capitalizing the G.)

i find it admirable that you are taking so seriously what the bid stands for, and the ritual you may experience as a member. if only all pnms(female and male) would do take their pledgeship so seriously!!!

Some of the fraternities have rituals that are more based in scripture than others...this is definately something to disclose to see if the fraternity may have an issue with it.

I agree with the other poster that you are to be well-commended for taking your bid seriously.

I think the "conversion attempt", ever how-slight, will probably happen anyway. As a religious person, I cannot fathom of how anyone can be either, but as an American, I strongly feel that there isn't anything wrong with someone believing as they choose, and I support that right.

It will definately be a call for the fraternity to make, and he may pleasantly discover that they may not have an issue with it.

When most people think of athiests, they instantly think of political radicals..that successfully took prayer out of schools, want to change the pledge, fight every Christmas nativity scene, etc.

I think the PNM would probably be best served avoiding that association..no matter how inaccurate, but that is what people think of when they hear the word.

Obviously that is no fault of the PNM.

Shouldn't GLOs that have a religious requirement (even a general one such as "belief in some form of religious deity/higher being") disclose that fact to the PNMs early in the recruitment process?

I think so, if that's the case. I had no idea that any GLOs had "religious requirements," though...guess you learn something new every day! :)

Another good term you might consider is saying you're "spiritually centered." That can mean you believe in a higher power, or it may not. It's what it means to you.

I guess I'm referring to what KLPDaisy wrote last night:

I did a quick look on the Kappa Sig national website and couldn't find anything that alluded to religious belief in their "About Kappa Sigma" or Motto sections.

They are not the same thing, and to say that you're one if you really are the other would be lying.

As far as saying "spritually centered", the "spirit" that you "center" yourself around could be the spirit of Adolf Hitler. Again, NOT what he means. He's an atheist, period. That's what he is. He shouldn't PC it up for anyone.

Azalin, just tell the pledgemaster "I'm an atheist, is there going to be any problem with anything in the rituals or the fraternity's central beliefs?" Straight up. He'll tell you yes or no and that'll be that.

alum, I think there is a thread in the KS forum on the higher power question.

I agree with 33girl - honesty is the best policy.

There was a time when several GLOs had a religious requirement, either inclusionary or exclusionary. I think most of those have gone by the wayside, but the ritual may still be very much one religion or another, or none at all.

I will agree with that advice, 33 Girl ONLY if he has objections to being in the midst of religion. Some atheists do, and that's their right. For instance.. there are some atheists who object to pubic prayer at a town council meeting. They either come a few minutes later, or they walk out of the room during the prayer.

If, however.. it's not a big deal to him as it isn't to some atheists.. he can respectfully stand while others pray... if they do. Or listen to bible quotes.. if they read them.

It really depends on how he feels about it.

"Spiritually centered" merely means that a person either believes in a higher power, but not in organize religion... or... doesn't believe in a higher power but still believes in the spirit of humanity.

As an aside... Somebody once sent me the theory that every internet debate ultimately ends up with somebody mentioning Hitler or Nazi Germany at one point or another. Guess it's true!

Well, that's what I mean. He can get an answer and then decide for himself. But he needs to get a straight answer, and he can only get that by being straight himself.

And I think "spiritually centered" is one of those phrases that can mean so many things, it basically means nothing - which is why I don't think he should use it.

The only reason I said "it depends" -- is if he really doesn't care if his fraternity prays or reads from the bible.. then why make an issue of it?

But again.. if he feels strongly about it then yes, I would agree your route is the best to take.

Actually, "spiritually centered" does mean something. It means you believe in goodness and lead a "centered" life towards it.. whether that is through humanitarianism, through a higher power, or both. But you're right, it's a very broad term.

Keep your mouth shut (at least until after you're intiated) and enjoy the time with your new brothers.

I'm going to ask the same question:

If belief in a religious what-have-you is central to membership to a GLO, why on earth would that be not brought up before bids are offered? Otherwise it would seem to be a waste of time for both the GLO and the PNM.

It's not....and that is part of the problem. Some Greek organization's history and traditions are more infiltrated into scripture than others...and you are right...without breaking any ritual secrets...at a minimum, to WHAT degree they are involved, should at least be mentioned.

Wow, thanks for the replies, everyone.

I attended a catholic high school for four years, and I cooperated with morning prayer, mass, etc. I don't have a problem with their beliefs, but I guess it'll be up to the fraternity to decide. I'll tell them tomorrow when I get back to school.

My opinion is that if you don't have a problem cooperating then I don't see any reason the fraternity really needs to know.

Nobody ever said you had to believe everything you hear or say for that matter. I don't know if your fraternity is based in christianity or not (most are I believe) but as long as you uphold the core values (brotherhood, friendship - whatever they are) no one will know you're just going through the motions during any religious parts that may come up. I don't think any of us believe that we are in church, although we do take it seriously, when we meet with our GLOs even if it is for ritual.

Not even touching the accuracy or inaccuracy of that statement, I'm going to say this in the nicest way possible; please don't speak for my fraternity. You're not a member, and you can't speak for how things are done nationally or on a particular campus.

If the fraternity is Kappa Sig (or any other, for that matter), talk to the brothers in the chapter and explain the situation.

If they truly are welcoming of members from diverse backgrounds, your personal beliefs and view of spirituality should not be an issue. If you are a true athiest, then you can recite a prayer or a vow to God and consider them just "words." I don't see where it needs to be an issue. If you have to put your hand on a Bible it won't matter to you: it's just a book. They don't need to know your religious views, sexual orientation or your political views.

Ok, so today, I walked about a mile to the house to talk to them, and they simply told me that don't force religion on anyone. One of the guys said he was Jewish and that he hated church. The conversation took about three minutes.

I would hate church too, if I was Jewish. :p

I'm glad everything went OK!

This is correct. And a dispute over this rule was the basis of a dispute between the national fraternity and its Stanford chapter. You can read about this in the New York Times at:
http://tinyurl.com/noksigatheists

I beg to differ. Fraternities have these rules for a reason. If you are an atheist and a fraternity has a rule against athiests,
1) you will have to lie to join and
2) you won't like what you find on the inside after you've joined.

This thread is three years old.

I would think that fraternities with especially strong ties to Masonry would have a requirement for a higher power.

ETA: Sorry, I didn't read the date of the OP.

I know it's too late but...
 

I know the OP is 3 years old, but I'll say it anyway:

Most, if not all, GLOs would have a problem with a chapter taking it upon themselves to change ritual or a ceremony like initiation.

Insisting on reading religious content in a ceremony DOES NOT EQUAL expelling members who are atheists.

The religious themes of ceremony/ritual have been a common theme in NPC discussions with various GLOs, but generally the cons for changing ritual (and getting rid of religious references) has to do with honoring tradition, not violating freedom of religion.

Poor Kappa Sig. If someone came on GC and listed all the GLOs with ceremonies based on or including Judeo-Christian ideology whose nationals ask them to perform them as written, you'd have a list a mile long. If this is your issue (and I'm not saying it shouldn't be) take it up with the Greek System in general, because it's far more prevalent than just one GLO.