How Important Is Education In Love
 

How important to do you guys think education is in long-term relationships and marriage?

I've been dating a bartender. He's great. He's cute. He keeps me on my toes. He's romantic. He treats me well. We get along wondefully.

BUT...he never went to college. He also never intends on going to school. I'm not quite sure how long he plans on keeping his bartending job.

My parents have always, always stressed the importance of a good education and the benefits of a degree. They also stressed the importance of never settling in a relationship. I don't feel like I'm settling, but then again, I confuse myself on a lot of things.

I really like this guy. I'm not sure if it's because of the way I was raised, but I have a really hard time understanding why he doesn't have the drive to go to school. It's not like he's lazy. He's more...carefree.

Anyway, I know it's important to follow your heart. However, I think it's important to make responsible decions for your future, and I'm just a little bit worried that my feelings for him might be clouding my judgment...that, and not to sound materialistic, but I like nice things....nice things that don't always come cheap. Is it crazy to build a long-term relationship with someone who doesn't share your views about the importance of education?

watch "Cocktails" with Tom Cruise.

My fiance and I are both teachers. Part of the reason we got together was our love for learning...we have a lot of things in common that stem from eductation and culture.

Personally, I've tried relationships with the the "carefree" types and I've always wanted more...but that's just me. IMO, it IS important to ask yourself where things are going and if you'll be okay with the course.

Is he smart? You can skip college and still be smart. What are his future plans? Does he want to start his own business or something?

I think motivation is a huge factor (at least in my eyes) on the potential long-term-relationship scale.

If he doesn't have motivation to go to school, what DOES he have motivation to do? Open his own business?
Wait to win the lottery?

Motivation & drive to succeed are very important to me. Of course if the guy takes it to an extreme (i.e. being a workaholic) then that is a major turn off. Any guy I even consider dating (even if it's just a date - not planning the wedding yet) has to have a game plan. I hate the "I don't know"

Personally (and this is just my opinion again :)) education is very important in addition to having a good job (especially if you are thinking marriage). If he plans on bartending for the rest of his life, what kind of marriage would that be if he's gone every night ? :)

There is a guy I kind of "talked" to for awhile, but after about a month I was so over it. Right now he's my age, still has not finished college and has no clue what he wants to do for the rest of his life when he DOES finish college. Maybe he'll stay working at the bank (he's been a bank teller for almost 4 yrs)? Maybe not? He has no clue what he wants to do w/ the degree if he ever gets it. That's not the kind of attitude I go for. I want a guy who has his eye on the prize and is always driving to succeed in a field he loves.

Re: How Important Is Education In Love
 

Oh, wow...that could be me! :p My boyfriend is a bartender/musician who went to college for a while but hated every minute of it so he left after a couple years. Meanwhile, I'm working on my Master's degree because I plan to become a teacher and I have always loved school and learning. It seems like we're just a disaster waiting to happen, but you know what? I get along better with him than I have with anyone else I've ever dated, with the possible exception of one person, and the fact that he doesn't have a college degree doesn't really bother me that much. I never really even thought about it until one of my friends made the rather rude comment that I shouldn't "settle," because basically I "deserve better" than to be with someone who wasn't motivated enough to finish college. After my friend said that, I started to really think about it and I came to the conclusion that people are interested in different things, and I'm glad that we are a little different because things don't get boring. He understands that school is important to me and thinks it's great that I'm happy with what I'm doing, but the whole college thing (or just school in general) wasn't for him. It isn't that he doesn't see the value of it, he would just rather be doing other things himself. He is very passionate about his music, which is something I'm not all that into but I respect that and I'm glad that he has something he's interested in. So my point is, having a college degree isn't the be-all, end-all...and as far as marriage goes, don't you want to be able to support yourself anyway without having to rely on a man to do it? (Now it's one thing if you have to support yourself and his sorry azz if he won't get out and work or something, but that's not what I'm talking about here.) Most bartenders I know do OK anyway; my boyfriend owns a house, and does way better than I ever did while I was working retail. So I would say don't worry about it until you have a reason to...who knows, maybe he wants to go into management or something later on.

It matters not to anyone but the two of you, in the long run. If he feels insecure about you being better educated than he, then it's wrong. If you think you can hold your being better educated than he over his head, it's wrong.

But if you're both okay with it, and you can see yourself putting up with the hours that a bartender keeps if you have kids, then I don't see a problem - IF he's intelligent. One of the happiest couples I know is a butcher and a woman who has two Masters and is working on her Doctorate!

I don't think that matters at all. I have a J.D. and Mr. valkyrie has taken some college classes but doesn't have a degree. Personally, I don't give a rat's ass -- he's smarter than many of the people I know who have degrees.

Also, people without degrees can make decent money, and if you want nice things, you can always buy them for yourself. :)

Cosign!

No, really...Mr. Munch is currently in school, but he's not in a hurry to get out. At this point, the only person who is stressing about the disparity in our education levels is Daddy. We're personally fine with it for now, because we have similar life goals and interests.

My boyfriend attended college...he went to a private school right out of high school to play baseball...then transfered after his first year to the school I graduated from....he went there for two years and then stopped going because he was not sure of what he wanted to do!!

He got a job as a manager at Donato's Pizza (I am sure some of you have heard of it-- in Ohio, Indianapolis, Florida, Phili, and a few other places). At Donato's he realized he really enjoyed the restaurant business (he had some experience as a server and pizza delivery driver in the past at other restaurants- but like the manager side much more). Within 18 months he was promoted to General Manager and spent a year and a half as GM.

This past spring he started a new job as a manager at a large chain sit down restaurant (I am sure most of you would know it-- but for his sake I would rather keep the name out). They have told him if he keeps up the good work that he has the potential to be a GM in less than a year! We are hoping he will continue to move up and possibly be a regional manager one day!! They make awesome money!! Restaurant managers do not need to have college degrees-- and in the long run can end up having extremely successful careers if they work hard!!!!!! If my boyfriend sticks with the restaurant business-- he will make more money than I will ever see and I have a Master's Degree!!!!!! I tell him I do not care if he ever goes back (sometimes he talks about it) because I am so PROUD of him!!!!!!

I think your man needs to just figure out what he wants to do with his life...my bf was 24 when he finally figured it out!! If he wants to be a bartender for the rest of his life and is happy and good at his job- then that is great!!

My parents are exactly like yours-- focus on education-- but when they saw that my boyfriend had drive and ambition they did not care about the degree!!! They just want to make sure that he makes me happy and can take care of me and a family in the future!! Degrees are not everything-- it is about the person and if they make you happy!!

I dunno folks...
 

bgsugirlie,

I see it as an "equally yoked" thing... I see what others here are saying and to some level I agree with them. And I also think it is a matter of your own independence from your parents. How independent are you from your folks? If you are out on your own, finishing school with out their help, and you are okay with your choice in life, then I would say, go for what you seek in love...

However, upbringing has a lot to do with how you pursue a relationship and the expectation in one. You need to weigh your options and think about what kinds of life experiences are important for you now and in the future. Moreover, what is your guy's life experiences? Maybe he came from a family that did not pressure him to pursue college. Or maybe he's rebelling against his family. Maybe he's an heir to a super billion dollar corporation and can stroll in whenever--like Bruce Wayne... Or maybe he is just a bartender with only wanting to serve drinks for the rest of his life...

Whatever it his experiences are, YOU must be happy with that and YOU must never deviate from that or try to change him. Because if you do, it is YOU that will wind up unhappy with YOUR situation...

My husband is a Doctor of Veterninary Medicine. But for some reason, vets do not make the kinna cash that physicians do unless they have a mega-practice doing doggy face lifts for the rich and famous, etc. My husband is a research vet. and has a board certification is pathology which gives him more credentials to get more money based on his education.

Now, I could have married just about anyone. But I found the higher education I received, the harder it was to reconcile my values that I obtained through my upbringing to those who did not "fit" those qualifications, etc.

In marriage, it ain't about "happily ever after with the 3 bed, 2.5 ba house, 2.5 kids and 2 SUV's"... It is more about life insurance, beneficiaries, mortgage payments, nest egg, retirement savings, so on and so forth... If your parents what that same kinna life for you and do not want you to deviate from what they have provided for you--then you can either get it yourself--going back to that "independence thing" or you can try to marry into it... Either way, you still must have some level of independence in this world with the way things are going down now. It would be plain stupid to have total reliance on someone else for your breadwinning when you are an adult...

Believe me, I not into bullishting you... I am giving it to you straight up. You have the right to take it or leave it... But these are my experiences that I choose to share with you... I would be okay monetarily if I stayed by myself, unmarried. I would not be flashing the Cobalt Sports Yacht along with the $4 million dollar house on the beach... But, I would be okay in a decent house with a driveable car by myself...

But when I got married, all of that "financial stuff" must be discussed--not everything--but a lot of things... And before is better than after marriage... Because no matter what y'all think with the wedding planning stuff and the oh so beautiful stuff, the honeymoon period can be quickly over once y'all hit a financial downfall... And the way financial markets are going with a housing bubble bursting probability... Think long and hard of who you wanna be with during those times... And the US is at war... That hits financial markets hard in and of itself...

Maybe not education, but intelligence is important. If you can't sit down and have a discussion with someone, it will be tough to be with them day after day. That's not saying that you have to have equal education levels, but intelligence levels should be similar.

Yes.

I have a number of close friends who never went to college (a few who dropped out of high school and ended up getting their GEDs later), and they are all highly intelligent -- moreso than some of my friends that are in college. At the end of the day, I can have a better, more interesting conversation with them than I can with some of the people I've known who are in college but are, honestly, pretty dull. I can't say that the same would necessarily apply in a romantic relationship, but I'm guessing it would.

You have to understand that just because someone is well-educated does not mean that they value education. In fact, sometimes it's just the opposite. In another year I'll have my college degree, and I may even go back to grad school, but I don't value education such as it's defined in the United States. I value learning and curiosity and the love of figuring out new things, but I don't particularly admire somebody who has the dedication to sleep through Astronomy 101 and cram just enough to pass the final, you know? Having a college education depends more on finances and the type of family you were raised with than it does on your intelligence.

To me, this just seems like kind of a "young" problem. Don't take that the wrong way, because I know many people in their early/mid-20s who are wondering about this question too. Once you get further removed from the college environment, this becomes less of a big deal -- as long as your priorities are similar in other aspects. (In other words, his job/attitude towards education may be a side effect of the issue and not the issue itself -- the real issue may be with how you deal with someone who is laid-back and "carefree" when you may not be that way yourself.)

Here are a few questions that popped into my head:

(1) Does he have a plan for the future?
(2) Do you and your boyfriend communicate well?
(3) Does he have a financial plan for the future? Like it or not, many relationship have gone sour due to financial difficulties. If I'm not mistaken, finances is the top reason for divorces.

Of course, these are very materialistic questions. Remember, you can't buy love, but money make the love more efficient.

Exactly - while you'd like to think that love is simple, pure and completely unlinked to money, that's just not realistic. Mortgage payments, bills and the such are just as much a part of a relationship as anything else. The fact is it's tougher to get a good job with less education.

That of course is if this is a long-term thing; in the short term, that stuff doesn't matter quite as much.

There are lots of people who are brilliant, don't really work hard in school, decide not to pursue higher levels of education and then become successful.

-Rudey
--By lots, I mean very few.

Interesting...
 

How the fellas are listing tangible measurements--such as finances, etc...

Whereas, the ladies are listing intangible measurements--such as feelings, etc...

How serious are you with this guy? Do you want to marry him or he's the boyfriend for now? Can you see yourself with him in another 5-10 years, with or without kids?

Thanks everyone for the different perspectives. Here is some more info on him...

We're not marriage serious. We're not casual. We kind of fall somewhere in the middle.

Right now, I couldn't see myself dating anybody else. He's wonderful!

We communicate great. He's an intelligent guy. I LOVE talking to him. As far as the plan for the future...haven't really discussed that. I know he wants to get married and have a family one day...but I'm not necessarily sure that he sees himself doing anything else besides bartending. He never talks about other job possibilities. I never ask because I don't know how to not sound....well....rude. I don't want him to think his job isn't good enough. He's a hard worker.

He loves bartending. I'm happy he enjoys his job...but BARTENDING??? FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE??? That thought kind of scares me.

I'm just trying to figure out if not sharing the same values about the importance of a career is a deal-breaker.

As for sharing values of a career, some of the questions I'd ask myself if I were in your shoes:
1) Does he have a good work ethic?
ie. show up on time, take pride in doing a job well done. You did say he was a hard worker.
2) Does he have respect for his boss and other co-workers?
3) Is he living within his means?
ie, is he complaining about not having enough money, does he pay his bills on time, are credit card companies living messages on his voice mail. If he can't handle his business on the salary of a bartender then getting another job isn't going help him.

These kinds of traits can transfer to any career. Just because he's not talking about career change now doesn't mean that he won't change his mind when he wants to settle down. The majority of successful people started out with just a job.

Miranda on Sex and the City had this same problem with Steve... she was a lawyer and he was a bartender. Look how that worked out (yes, i realize it's a TV show)

I definately think that in the end it is up to how YOU feel about him and ya'll situation. You obviously have at least a small problem with his lifestyle, or else you wouldn't even be asking us for our opinion. So, I will give you mine (to go along with the other million)

I personally find education to be important. I have dated guys in the range of not having a college education all the way to doctors. I have found that I personally just didn't have that much in common with men who did not go to college. I think there are so many experiences that college gives you, that you will automatically have a little bit more of a connection with a college graduate than someone else.

I do agree that intelligence is a better measure than college credits. But, it naturally follows that a college graduate is likely going to be more intelligent. (Please don't flame me for this people, it is just an opinion.)

I personally found that dating the doctor provided me with the most intellectually stimulating relationship I have had. I have this LOVE of learning, and his intelligence made me want to learn even more! And he also happened to have so many of the other qualities that I crave in a relationship. Tenderness and a sense of humor, etc.

If you are thinking about getting serious with this man, I think you DO need to have a conversation about his goals and aspirations. Don't worry about coming across as rude- if he is serious about you then he should understand why you need to know his plans for the future.

I'm not flaming you, just questioning why you think that. How would you back that up? How would you define "intelligence"?


On that note, I just realized that out of the five or six people I consider closest to me, only one of them is a college graduate -- a statistic that is pretty interesting given that I am in college and so is the majority of my social circle.

I only back it up with the people I know and have met. I completely admit that it may be different for other people. I really am only talking about my own personal experience. :)

I guess it depends on the person. I think sharing similar values is important in a relationship, and usually, that comes with upbringing and education. Usually, someone who has dropped out of college to "do his own thing" won't share the same values as someone who has a degree and is, say, a doctor. Of course, there are exceptions.

Thats . . . well uhm . . . just wrong on so many different levels Taualumna lol.

Maybe guys are taught to view relationships more in terms feelings(though we don't get credit for it). For men its important to us that we are attracted to her and get along, thats about it.

Maybe women are brought up to be more focused on resumes?

Along the same lines, I have never seen men gush about the new girl they dated having this and that impressive resume feature or material advantage. But I have certainly seen women do it.

I guess its another gender difference? And yet men are considered more shallow . . odd eh?

As far as education being crucial, I think there that may have been more true a long time ago.

At one time if you went to college it meant that you probably came from a certain type of background or had superlative ability (that someone recognized).

Now that we have made higher education into an assembly line for the production of Happy Meal Diplomas, and I apply this to advanced degrees also, education has less to do with your background and more to do with your ability and patience with ticket punching . . . and I am not sure thats an admirable trait.

Maybe not a bad one, but not an admirable one.

The bottom line is whether you can trust yourself (and most people lack the skill) to recognize a quality person with all his/her attributes just by getting to know someone.

Then you wouldn't need to check off boxes on an imaginary dating resume that can net you a guy that looks good on paper but is still dysfunctional as a person.

Actually, think about it like this - I think everyone will agree that attending college is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for having 'intelligence' (which I'll politely refuse to define specifically).

However, if we say that 'intelligence' is something that is quantifiable, and that 'intelligent' people are those who have above-average intelligence, I think it's more likely that someone that is 'intelligent' has a college degree of some sort.

There are certainly exceptions, but we even note these people as exceptions - "He didn't go to college, but he's very bright, just not into school" or "he's very creative, but not a test-taker" and so on.

However, this link is probably not causative - think of the avalanche of people from our generation that have a college degree (even a moderately unimportant one, like say mine), as well as the way that people quantify 'intelligence' (it's probably related to, say, money or attitude, no?).

Not that I'm really agreeing with any other points in this thread (honestly, James is right on here, in many ways) - just musing a little. Work is boring.

College graduates aren't any smarter Rob. So what if there are standards that keep people from attending college (low enough for many schools) and so what if college graduates have higher incomes because that large population of the world decided they hated free money.

That's not to say the people that don't go to college are dumb. The richest man in the world dropped out of college. But these are rare.

-Rudey

Right, because rich always = smart.

Anyway, James has a point. My understanding of guys (and please guys, correct me if I'm wrong) indicates that if a guy is attracted to a woman and she's reasonably fun and not a pain in the ass, that's what really matters. I can't say I've ever known a guy who gave a crap about stuff like education.

Of course, whether a guy is willing to get into a long-term relationship also depends on timing, but that's a different issue. The potential-relationship woman has to be hot and fun, and then the timing has to be right.

For women, I'm not so sure. On the one hand you have women who are concerned with a man's resume, including education -- maybe because of perceived shared values, intelligence, earning potential, and I'm not sure what else. On the other hand, you have women who are maybe more guy-like in terms of relationships, who want someone who is hot and not a pain in the ass. Obviously, I'm the latter, so I can't explain the former with any accuracy.

Random thoughts based on previous posts:


In my opinion, people who do well in college tend to be successful in the work world as well -- not because they're necessarily more intelligent than non-college graduates, but because the skills needed to do well in college are similar to those needed to do well at a job. If you learn how to work well with deadlines, work well under pressure, work well with authority figures directing you, accomplish tasks you don't necessarily want to do without whining, work to achieve based on internal drive, not external awards -- you're probably going to be relatively successful at work as well. This is similar to my thoughts that while IQ scores or standardized tests don't necessarily correlate with pure intelligence, they correlate with the kind of intelligence that is valued in our society and thus predict success fairly well.

Bottom line: Success in school reflects learned behaviors that can or can't be changed, and that can be learned in or outside of school. Success at standardized testing is mostly genetic/learned early in life, and thus fairly stabilized by the time you hit high school/college. People who have high IQs but don't do well in situations that require deadlines or working well with authority figures, etc., will still be relatively succesful at less conventional jobs. Those who aren't particularly naturally intelligent but have learned how to play the game can do decently at conventional jobs but will probably never be CEO. I don't think Bill Gates could have ever started at the bottom and worked his way to the top because he probably never learned those "playing well with others" skills, but he managed to use his intelligence to become successful. The same goes for everyone from Kanye West to Ron Popeil. (RON POPEIL WAS A COLLEGE DROPOUT, YALL. I KNEW YOU WANTED TO KNOW.)


I don't think women are necessarily more shallow for focusing on "resumes," especially since where men fail to look for resumes they make up for in looking for attractiveness. It's just indicative of what is conditioned into either gender -- women are often conditioned to look for men who will be able to support them, and a degree/financial security is indicative of that. Men aren't looking for people to support them, so they wouldn't really care whether or not a women has an impressive resume. I do agree with the bottom line of James's post, though.

In terms of what valkyrie is saying, women who tend to discard traditional OMGMUSTFINDAHUSBANDTOSUPPORT ME thinking will be more likely to focus on who a man is rather than his money and credentials.


And I'm off to continue the search for the elusive guy who is hot & not a pain in the ass, because I still haven't found him.

Always? I believe I gave a rare example.

If you would like to return your college education, go ahead though.

-Rudey

Rudey--

Which MBA programs can I be snotty about in terms of moneymaking potential? I've been receiving a gentleman caller who's at a top school. I've got to find someone who's Master's degree is more lucrative than mine.

(they may call me a gold digger, 'cause they see i ain't tryin' to hit up a broke -------)

Thunderbird.edu

-Rudey

HOTTT.

Makes HBS look like Jarvis Christian College.

Until you define 'intelligence' in a manner that provides for quantification (i.e. "He is more intelligent than she") this is all conjecture - except yours is somewhat circular, and really relies on some assumptions I can't agree with. You also run right into the 'exceptions' fallacy I mentioned, but hey. To pick:

Does this relate to anything other than money? Because my point was unrelated to money (although by extension you would expect certain outcomes...) - I'm merely positing that it's almost impossible for there not to be correlation between "higher intelligence" and "went to college" for a variety of reasons, including the sheer number of people that went to college to the way that we view 'intelligence' as a measuring stick.

Part of my contention, however, does state that we base our ratings of intelligence on certain skills or etc - so your points may apply there, although against the hypothesis you're expressing.

"Kind of intelligence" hm? Now, unless you can break intelligences down into discrete items with a certain valuation, then this is speculative at best. At worst, you're essentially ceding to my point, since 'the types of intelligence society values' can probably be shortened to 'intelligence' (since without a quantifiable definition, perception may as well equal reality here, no?).

'Pure' intelligence seems out of place, as well - what is 'intelligence' being mixed with to create impurities, whether these be real or perceived?

So intelligence is related to success, no?

Can't income be seen as a tangible measurement of one type of success?

Can't graduation from college be seen as another?

Additionally . . . If we're deciding on a definition of 'intelligence', shouldn't it include the increased ability to learn, process, or integrate knowledge for positive benefit . . . and as such, the 'learned behaviors' you're dismissing would certainly fall within the affinities that should be symptomatic of 'intelligence' (although not a necessary condition, I think you can make a case for sufficient), right?

So what you're saying is that those of moderate intelligence will be able to adapt to 'playing the game', but those of above-average intelligence will learn to 'play the game' better (even if it's by playing different)?

AKA they'll be more successful?

i dont think it would be a hurtful thing to ask him where he wants his career to go. i'd ask him what his future interests are. maybe he does have aspirations, he just hasnt had an opportunity to talk about them with you because the subject hasn't come up. never hurts to try.

bump because somehow I'm in this situation and I'm too old for this!

Education level doesn't matter at all. Intelligence does. And you really don't have to be intelligent these days to get a degree...not that that is anything new...for a very long time there have been college students who skated by on either their athletic ability or their family's money.

And better to live with a happy bartender than with a lawyer who hates his job or a doctor who's never at home. This is just such a nonissue to me, but that's probably because I come from a background where people didn't turn up their noses if you had a job where you actually got your hands dirty.

If YOU have a problem with saying "my boyfriend/husband is a bartender" then do him a favor and break up with him, because you'll never be happy and you'll make him miserable as well.

I have no problem saying that I did the college thing and my husband grew up in Mexico with 11 brothers and sisters, and got sent out at age 13 to get a full time job to help support the family. My husband is fairly intelligent, but certainly naive about certain things. (He's convinced that if you eat watermelon and drink beer at the same time you will die.) He never had the chance to study biology or chemistry or anything but basic history. Eventually, he wants to go back and take those classes that he missed out on earlier in life. And I'd definitely rather be with someone like that, then someone who dropped out of there own free will and is content to be a goober the rest of their life.

I would have a HARD time dating someone without at least a bachelors degree. The only exception I would make would be if they had goals. Not only goals, but a plan for achieving those goals. By a plan, I mean one with objectives and timelines (to which they were already progressing on).

My roomate's boyfriend never even graduated from high school. He is crazy. He is basically going to live off of her for the rest of his life. No goals, no ambitions. All he does is play playstation for eight hours a day. He had a job but lost it because he drank too much.