Office Ettiquette
 

I work for the state government and the requirements for my position require that you have a degree in accounting or finance. There is a girl in my office who is up for a promotion to my level who is rumored to have no degree. Today I went over and asked her if she had a four year degree. She talked all around the issue and never really gave me an answer. About 20 minutes later my boss calls me in and chews me out about asking personal and confidential information of a fellow employee. Then after I get yelled at my entire department gets called into a meeting and we all get yelled at about minding our own business.

I didn't then and don't now see how it is wrong to ask someone if they have a four year degree. Was that too personal a question? Is there a side I am not seeing?

I see it this way, if it came up as just a part of small talk and informal conversation, I guess it'd be an innocent question to ask.

BUT -- since she was up for promotion and it's a critical time for her and I suppose the rest of your staff, perhaps it was somewhat inappropriate for you to ask that.

Just my two cents. :)

Thanks--- I need you to elaborate on your view. (It wasn't small talk- I wen't up and asked her flat out)

When I worked at CPA firm, the first week I was there 3 people asked if I had passed the CPA exam. I didn't think anything of it to say, "No I have not."

Think back to college the first thing anyone ever asked you when they met you was, "What's your major" was that too personal?

I would've been insulted if someone on my job just flat out asked me did I have a degree. If she's competent it shouldn't really matter.

In my opinion, asking someone "Do you have a four year degree?" is not the same thing as "What's your major?". I think that's like comparing the questions - "Where do you live?" and "Did you pay your rent this month?"

You work for a State government, which is hypothetically controlled by the citizens& taxpayers of the state& since you're a taxpayer aren't you entitled to know the qualifications of a employee/potential employee? It's not like this is a Fortune 500 company and you're just some consumer who wants to know more about the way it's run. We wouldn't want someone convicted of embezzlement to be running certain depts, would we? You as a taxpayer have a vested interest to know that the government (and all its wonderful depts.) are doing what it can to provide the services it renders effectively& efficiently .

Then again where I work after someone is hired for a job at supervisor level or above, the HR dept. sends out a notice basically outlining the person's qualifications including by not limited to education, job experience and what they have done thus far at our company.

I personally don't think that is too personal a question to ask unless of course it puts the person in a bind if they answer you truthfully. Questions might be asked if a local newspaper found out people were being hired who did not meet the stated requirements.

-Mark

requirement-Something that is required; a necessity.
Something obligatory; a prerequisite.

smile pretty and keep your mouth shut.
you might consider apologizing to the under qualified chickie...
she's out of your control.
sad as it is..
that might calm her down a bit and off of you.
good luck.

I 100% agree with what Sandy said. I guess to elaborate on that, from my pov....

Since your coworker is up for a promotion, you asking her if she had her degree was a form of calling her out on her possible lack of qualifications.

In my office situations most people do not talk about their college degrees. If someone is up for a promotions, their work experience often outweighs a degree. It tends to be more about real life experience and interpersonal skills rather than a text book eduction.

Just my opinion.....

From the perspective of someone who has been a manager up to the Director level, here's my opinion.

Personal information about a co-worker who doesn't want you to know is none of your business.

Unless the requirements are written in the law somewhere, and your management decides to make an exception, that's not your business either.

If your supervisor wants to tell you why an exception is or has been made, it's her/his decision.

That's why they call it management.

Besides, you say it's a rumor anyway -- this woman may in fact have a doctorate for all anyone knows.

Sorry to be so curt, but that's how I see it. Put yourself in her place and think how you would feel if it happened to you.

It seems to me that you probably shouldn't have asked the question (not that I disagree with your asking it, but most people seem to find it inappropriate). I really don't think it was right for your boss to speak with the entire staff about the issue. It isn't as if you harassed her about it (you only asked her once, right?). If you had continued to pursue the issue, then it would become a problem. I'm guessing that maybe a lot of people in your office have asked her that, leading to the group confrontation. I mean, no adult would go crying to their boss over that one question unless she had been asked my several people. Right?

I've worked in state, city and county positions for 13 years. Politics reign the way things are run, not qualifications. On paper, her intended position may have required a 4-year degree, but if she has the experience, the right connections, etc, it may not matter that she doesn't have a 4-year degree.

I've seen people who held no degree (not even an AA/AS) go from a bottom rung of the ladder to upper management just for knowing the right things to say or pulling the right favors. I've seen people with terrible emotional problems, who would've been dealt with appropriately (not necessarily fired as they're covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act) in the private sector, get promotion after promotion because the supervisor did not know how to deal with the situation correctly.

That all being said, bluntly asking another for their qualifications in a government position will not help nor deter the impending promotion...it just gets others in a lot of hot water...government positions (that I've seen) prefer to go with the "dont-get-involved-unless-it-directly-affects-you" policy...

Honestly, I'd be pissed if someone came up to me in an accusatory way and asked me that.. it is none of that person's business. However, if it was small-talk in a conversation, I don't think I'd be that mad.


So I'm going to have to agree with the co-worker for getting upset and the boss telling the department to mind their own business.

From the way you described the situation, I'd say you were in the wrong. With the timing of your question, plus the fact that you are not involved in the hiring process, you just should not have asked.

I've had a night to sleep on this issue and I still feel the same way. I was promoted because I have a four year degree. I had to bust my ass to get a B in advanced accounting and I am not going to stand by and watch the rules be bent for someone who does not qualify. Furthermore the requirement for that position is still a degree in Accounting or Finance. This is a government position- life experience means nothing. That is why you have 50 year old secretary's making 20K --sad as that is. They could do my job easily with about 4 months of training but they aren't allowed and I don't think this girl should be either.

As for the statement that said "where do you live" and did you pay your rent last month -----I asked her did she have a degree- not anything about her GPA or did she take remedial math.

I really am shocked that any of you agree with this issue. Asking someone if they have a degree not wrong.


PS- I am taking my degree in an hanging it on the wall this morning.

I think you have every right to be upset if she gets the job and doesn't meet the minimum qualifications. It's kind of a slap in the face to you and others. I had a similar situation when I finished my MBA. I was "told" the job I had was an upper level job and that they would ONLY take people with experience and MBA's. After I had been there a few months they then hired several people with NO experience (like not even McDonald's), and they had just finished their Bach. They also started hiring manager's kids, friends, etc! I just figured they were going a different route then they originally planned, and I eventually left.

But, I have to agree with a lot of other people and say that asking her flat out maybe wasn't the best approach (Sorry!). No reason to blame her and make her feel bad. You can't blame her for wanting to get promoted. I'd be more upset with the managers. So she hasn't actually gotten promoted yet? Maybe it won't happen. And maybe it will be a good opportunity for you and others to get promoted again then or take another job that maybe you wouldn't have "qualified" for before?

You asked for advice...we gave you advice. You can be as upset as you want about the situation, but you still shouldn't have flat out asked her about her degree like that, with the situation being what it is.

This is life - you're going to run into situations where less-qualified people will be promoted, and if you continue to drive yourself crazy over every time it happens, you're going to make yourself miserable.

Three2Tango, I may be in the minority but I don't feel you were in the wrong for asking your coworker about her degree or lack thereof. I think that political correctness is running rampant in today's workplace (not that I am a part of today's workplace, but I know people who are :D ) so management sort of panicked when she complained that people were wondering about her educational background. Hence the hammer that was dropped on the department.

On the bright side, I think your coworker has answered your initial question! ;)

Ah, youthful crusades are great -- whether you're right or not.

Since you don't appear to want to heed the overwhelming consideration of others -- even though you asked the question -- please consider this which I learned over many long years of painful experience, and at least one lost job:

Managers get to manage, which includes hire and fire.

Workers get to do what the managers tell them to -- until they get to be managers themselves and then get PO'd when workers go on youthful crusades.

Are you ready to put your job on the line or create the impression that you're a troublemaker? Think this over carefully.

I really am shocked that you'd post something asking for opinions, when you're totally unwilling to listen to dissenting views.

It seems that the entire problem here is you feeling superior to the woman because you have a degree - somehow, you are connecting her promotion with a lessened value to your diploma, and you're making this personal. You asked a point-blank, uncomfortable, personal question, and your rationale to explain it away seems weak, to be perfectly honest.

I think you were well outside of usual office decorum here.

Hi. I'm a 23 year old secretary who works for the government. I make $24k a year.

I did three years of school. Dropped out before the fourth to take care of my terminally ill mom. Turns out it's real hard to work a second job (for tuition) and manage school, too.

Boy am I glad I don't have somebody like you at my work making me feel shitty to justify why she thinks she should get a promotion.

If this other girl gets the promotion, it's probably going to be because she's working her ass off, not assuming she's entitled to things because she managed to eke out that four year degree. She probably knows how to interact with her coworkers with maturity and professionalism.

I'd way rather work with the girl WITHOUT the four degree than with you. She sounds like the type to pull her weight and not complain. A degree is great and very useful -- but with interpersonal skills like the ones you're describing, you're not going to get very far.

In the real world, you're right...you get the degree, you find the positions that require the degree...not all government offices run this way...in fact, many are so dysfunctional that you don't need a degree at all!

The last state job I held, I received a promotion upon completing my Master's degree, because my office was looking to refill a position after someone left. Another member of the office believed she was entitled to the position due to seniority. The management said, "No, AChiO has the degree, we're going to give her the slot." Needless to say that this other person wasn't happy and called in a 5-month disability leave (I never saw this person the whole time I was working in my new position!).

Upon my finding a new job (one that was less dysnfunctional!), I later learned the management ended up hiring this person into my slot!! This person had no degree!!! For a Master's level position!! Yeah it chapped my hide a bit knowing how I worked my butt off for the Master's and the slot only to find out someone with less qualifications was eventually given that position who held no degree....but in the end I know I have the degree....that person still has MANY problems and still no degree!

So what I'm saying is that you may feeling you're more qualified (and you probably are!!!!!!), but ultimately it doesn't matter in government jobs...it's who can kiss butt better and who can make the boss look better in the end....that's what it's all about! 15 years of experience taught me that...that's why I got out!

If it is REQUIRED that the job in question have a degree - the same as you're REQUIRED to have an Act 30 clearance to teach - do you think your boss is going to be dumb enough to put THEIR job on the line and put someone in the position who doesn't have a degree?

I doubt it.

However, if it's not really a lawful requirement, you just need to suck it up and move on.

There is no answer. That's what people here aren't telling you.

It depends on the environment, the people, etc.

Since you had this experience, I guess you know that you can't ask questions like this with that boss at this office.

Perhaps it'll be different next time. :)

-Rudey

i think its telling that the only person who really agrees with you is admittedly not a part of a professional work place

it was increadibly rude and unprofessional for you to ask a person about their degree status. its not any of your business, and its not going to be any of your business until you are a manager overseeing her.

i also agree with your manager calling you out on it.

i thought about this for a little bit, and i was about to say that i thought it would be slightly (very slightly) ok if you guys were going for the same position and she won it, but then i completely decided against it. if she got a position that you did not get, it would be appropriate for you to ask your manager what made her more qualified for the job than you, and what improvements can you make to ensure that you will not be passed up the next time a position comes up. but beyond that, its not really any of your business.

at my company i've seen mba's passed up more than a few times for promotions for just bachelors degree holders. why? because the people who earned the promotion spent the time working their asses off to get their promotion.

maybe you should spend less time worrying about other people, and spend more time working towards your next career step

Again, it's OK for some people. I guarantee I work in a much more formal setting than most people on GC and I talk about stuff like that all the time.

-Rudey

Sometimes we get a little over-proud of our degrees.

I also dropped out of college with one quarter left to go to take a TV director position at a station where I had worked over a couple of summers. It was a real coup to get the job with as little "real" experience as I had.

Of four of us directors, one had a Masters, two had Bachelors degrees -- and me.

Within six months, I was directing the 6:00 and 11:00 PM News which were the two most important programs on the station. I didn't have a degree, but was a better director.

By the time I finished my BSC some twenty years later I was running the Production Department at a top 20 market NBC Owned and Operated TV station, Freelance directing NFL Football for NBC Sports and teaching a class in sports production at The University of Colorado at Boulder.

Actually, I wouldn't have bothered finishing if it hadn't felt like a sentence in my life that didn't have a period at the end.

College degrees are very important and I highly recommend them -- but they don't necessarily make you a better employee.

This is Political Job 101 - it's not what you know so much as who you know (and what you can do for your boss/manager).

Political Job 102 - do you get along, or do you cause problems? Frankly, most politicians don't care if you have an MBA with a Doctorate in Quantum Physics - can you do the job and keep the office running smoothly?


In no way am I saying that the system is right, but that's the way the system is. I've worked several summers in governmental offices, and had a political job when I got out of school, so I know the system.

Nobody but you can decide whether or not you can handle this position as it stands. If you can't, start applying elsewhere. Hanging your degree is going to cause more problems than a nailhole in the wall!

Geez, I'm not a complete workplace ignoramous! I'm just not working at this time. But I did used to have a career. I had a secretary and everything! :)

ETA: I'm just playing around, aphigirly :)

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What people aren't seeng is that the job requires a Bachelor's Degree. So, if the young woman without one gets the job, that's not right. I know that experience matters, but if a job posting says that someone needs that piece of paper then someone without one should not be considered.

Look at it this way. Someone who is an EMT or nurse for 30 years might know more medicine than someone who received their MD yesterday. But, only one of them is a physician.

Or a longtime paralegal might be well-versed in law but did not graduate from law school so is not a lawyer.

Everyone has a valid opinion, but this just makes the most sense to me. Plus, it's the most fair (not that that usually matters in the office)

Unless the job posting says, "Bachelor's degree -- or equivalent." In which case, if the applicant had the equivalent amount of experience (depending on the job, probably 2-3 years), but not the bachelor's degree, then OP has less of a right to be angry.

Oh, absolutely! I'm definitely not disputing that; that's a whole other ball of wax. I can't get back to the original post from this screen, but I *think* the poster said Bachelor's degree.

My father retired from Ford after 35+ years. He started as a plant forman, and his last position was the supervisor of stamping and planning (his boss answered to the VP, the VP answered to the CEO). He was promoted to the suprvisor position about 10 years before he retired. That position had a requirement of being an engineer. My dad had a BA in education from 1969. Sometimes, someone is better than you and their experience far outweighs the degree requirement. It's going to happen in all sorts of working environments for the rest of your life, so you should probably get used to it.

As far as asking her, given the situation, I don't think it was a wise move. It does make you look like a nit-picky, nosey person. That being said, I don't think she needed to run and tell the boss either.

After going thru interview after interview for new jobs after my lay off... it's not what kind of pretty pieces of paper you own and what you know, it's WHO you know. And if you don't know anyone and think you can get by on your pretty piece of paper, you are dead wrong.

And sometimes what is said on paper is misleading. For example: I was told flat out by someone in the meeting industry that she thought graphic designers were weird. I have a BS in graphic design. It may be true that some can't keep a deadline and don't have people skills, but even with admin and customer service experience, I still get written off.

Perhaps you weren't considered for the position because maybe you seem too set in your ways. You have that education and that structure. Maybe mgmt didn't want someone with a textbook background. Maybe this other candidate was fresh and is open to being "molded" into what mgmt wants. So maybe it was a blessing that you didn't get the option to promote. They can say all they want on the job description, but it matters more if the person fits what they are looking for, rather than their quals. It's different with being an MD or a JD or PhD... because you HAVE to have those pieces of paper to be in those professions.

But I'm learning more and more that more and more people are more qualified in other ways. And in some ways, they are over qualified. Maybe you were over-qualified.

But don't write off the girl without a specific degree. I'll be one of those someday when I enter into the meeting planning field.

May I add one more comment?

Do you remember the episode of Seinfeld when Elaine's medical charts have her marked as "uncooperative" and she's no longer able to find a doctor?

Causing an office to spontaneously combust will similarly follow you, for the rest of your career. When you use that office as a reference, they probably won't give you a bad reference (assuming that your work was good to begin with), but they'll make it clear that they were happy to see the back of you. Trust me.

What I also don't get is that it doesn't seem like this girl was competing with you for a promotion, right? She was being considered for a position that really had no affect on you? So then why is it that big of a deal?

Thank you all for your insight on this matter. I always know if I want an intelligent answer I can come here. I may not agree, but I still value your opinion here.

I don't know if the girl with no degree will get the job and beat out the MBA girl in my department. As for myself - the rest of my promotions for my career path are based on passing exams. I make 38K now and when I pass my 4 exams I will make 60K. Then if I get my MBA I will get a 9% raise on that. The management makes around 70k. I will stick with 1/2 the work and stress at 60K.

Again, Thanks for your candid opinions!

I love that you have a plan :) I'm trying to make one now.

/hijack

If you are competing I would go for the throat but hey that's just me. In that case I don't think what you did was enough. I'd download child porn on her computer and call the FBI.

-Rudey