wow.....
 

http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/iraqi-pow

i think this was shown on 60 minute or something...

warning.....very graphic photos

if this is true, where are those guys who were talking about how we americans were always so honest and just?

*waiting for someone to apologize for this behavior*

Some heads should roll for this one!
What is this BS that "we don't know how to run a prison"?

Hello, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that forcing prisoners to perform oral sex (or simulate it) is NOT a way to run a friggin prison!

I say nail the bastards who did this (I am a military brat and I refuse to call these bastards "soldiers" because they don't deserve the title!)

I found those pictures absolutely disgusting. The actions of a few bastards (Like Jill, I can't call them soldiers. That would be according them too much respect.) are totally undermining our credibility as a stabilizing and rebuilding force in Iraq. Not to mention it destroys our honor and reputation. I don't care what the hell the Iraqis have been doing. We have legal and humane ways of punishing them for mideeds. There is no excuse for this type of behavior.

Speechless.

Bastard idiots.

i'm not sure how credible this source is...but if it's true....


:eek: :mad:

I listened to some former JAG who now teaches law at Georgetown on NPR this evening regarding this incident. It seems that these soldiers were given instructions by either military intelligence types or private contractors that were hired to interrogate the prisoners to "Soften the prisoners up for interrogation".

The crazy thing is that currently, the contractors don't fall under any legal jurisdiction except maybe a U.S. Attorney (who probably wouldn't want to deal with something that happened thousands of miles away).

Also, as far as the Geneva Convention, it only applies to prisoners taken during a war -- not to many of these insurgent types. They're just regular prisoners and not really protected by any law besides whatever Iraqi law there is. I'm sure the soldiers will face justice under military law. As for these contractors, I'm expecting them to get away with this one.

There are many problems that contributed to this. One major issue is that there is only one general to administrate about 17 prisons. There are far too few prison guards -- and at least according to one of the people accused of these acts, they received inadequate training.

I'm sure that the pictures really only tell one side of the story. It's going to be interesting and probably alarming to hear the rest (if we ever get to).

I could throw up!

Courtmartials need to be handed down to each of those involved.

It's true. The Army has confirmed it to CBS and will probably bring charges against some or all who were involved.

Look, we're not always the guys on the white horse. American units have been involved in atrocities in many wars. The important thing is that when we find out, we take responsibility and punish those responsible. That's the difference between us and a lot of other countries.

Yeah these guys deserve so many rights. You know while they're busy laying bombs on roads, shooting at civilians from rooftops of schools/mosques/hospitals, and mangling and mutilating american bodies that hang from bridges, they were fully aware of human rights.

-Rudey

I seriously doubt that those last few pics, that they "recieved in an email" are authentic. They look like some kind of cheap porn pictures.

Kitso
KS 361

That's entirely possible, but the Army has investigated and admitted the situation happened and is probably going to bring charges -- so it may be moot.

A friend and I were talking about this, and he made a very valid point.

I was comparing it to the Mai Lai (I know that's spelled wrong) incident in Vietnam and how these horrible things happen, and they're not justifiable, but who is stupid enough to take pictures of it.

His point was that if they took pictures, particularly those "posed" ones, it would appear it is a condoned behavior by their superiors. It never occurred to them they would be in trouble for it.

Which just points to the military leadership & makes one question it.

DA,

I'm not talking about the prison pictures. If you follow the link up there, you'll see an entire page of pictures, the last group under a heading saying, "Pictures recieved in an email" They show 3 or 4 guys forcing a woman to perform sexual acts.

I doubt their veracity for a couple reasons. What the men are wearing, the nature of the photos, etc.

Lets not forget that these soldiers are also reservists, not your full time active duty military. While they may have recieved basic instruction, they aren't subject to the full POW training that active duty troops recieve. At least not that i'm aware of.

Kitso
KS 361

That is true. However, if they haven't been trained in POW procedures they really ought not to have any sort of power/supervision over them. Common sense would dictate that you just don't treat people like that.

I think these soldiers deserve medals.

-Rudey

You're absolutely right on this point. The general officer who was in charge of several prisons pointed that out. Although one of the soldiers interviewed is a corrections officer (In KY maybe) and should have known better -- even he said he asked for instructions and didn't get them.

It might in instructive to ask why they didn't get instructions, especially after the huge problem we had during the first Mid-East war with the number of prisoners we didn't expect. A lesson overlooked, I guess.

Common sense would dictate you don't treat people like that, but one has to look no farther than the Risk Reduction forum to see people(probably a lot the same ages as some of these soldiers) doing similar things to pledges/brothers/sisters, etc.

in the end, the responsibilty lies with the officers. Regardless of the status of the soldiers, the officers either didn't do a good job instructing them of their mission or supervising it.

Kitso
KS 361

Some of these pictures look fake to me.

Here is a link to the 60 Minutes story.

That's what Kitso pointed out. Of course if even one of them is real, there's a problem.

The aformentioned general who was in charge is saying that she got no instructions either. Might seem like a general officer should no better, though.

Okay I have seen a number of stories (media) where the soldiers and officers involved complained that they recieved no instruction on the care of prisoners..... however even the biggest morons would realize that beating or sodomizing a prisoner is wrong (I hope).

Funny, but I never needed special instructions not to make men under my responsibility blow each other . . but hey thats me.

Maybe a lot of you needed a carefully worded diagram on correct behavior? Small words?

Instruction, give me a break.

Perhaps if they weren't so homophobic, to the point that gays are executed, then homosexual acting wouldn't be that awful.

Do you think if we let these men go back to their villages they'd be stoned or axed in the head in some sort of honor killing? Discuss.

-Rudey

What in God's green earth was going on there? Nothing in my experience could even suggest that such things could happen AND under the jurisdiction of a General Officer who claims she was unaware of these incidents????!!!!????
In my outfit I made sure I knew exactly what was going on and I set very clear instructions on how we were to treat any prisoners. I always stressed "use common sense" be firm but be correct and do not under any circumstances give anyone a chance to make us look like the bad guys. What happened to the concept that is supposed to be written in stone that "the Commander is RESPONSIBLE for all that his soldiers do or fail to do." These idiots are unfit to wear the uniform of their country. No instructions my ass. Any damn fool knows that we do not mistreat prisoners, and then take pictures of these incidents. In the days of the Old Army that General would be left alone in the library with a loaded pistol and expected to reclaim lost honor. This one would probably try to hock the pistol. I am sick at heart that American soldiers could act in this manner, and I am revolted by the derreliction of duty of all officers and NCOs who had any knowledge of this. To say it was done at the urging of Intel types cuts no ice. A real soldier holds the power of death and learns very quickly to treat it wisely and wield it honorably. Those people are dishonored and damned lucky that they do not fall under my command. My God, do they begin to be conscious of the implications and ramefications of their actions?

CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS:

DON'T COLOR OUTSIDE THE LINES

I heard the tail end of a CBS news radio report that members of Congress (some from each party) were calling for Rumsfeld's resignation over this.

I don't like Rumsfeld, but I'm not sure he should be held responsible for the actions of some nutso soldiers out there.

Dee

Dee,

I don't much like Rumsfeld either, but he's the man in charge -- unless you want to go all the way up to The President.

I don't think this is a good time to change the Secretary of Defense, though.

I think the reason for people gunning for Rummy is that it smacks of a cover-up, and that he has been less than forthcoming towards congress...


On another note.... how many soldiers are facing criminal charges? Last I saw it was 6.... but in the latest photos I count more than six troops in them....

The investigation is "ongoing."

"One of al-Sadr's senior aides told worshippers in Basra that anyone capturing a female British soldier can keep her as a slave. Waving an assault rifle, Sheik Abdul-Sattar al-Bahadli also said anyone capturing a British soldier will receive about $350 and anyone killing one will receive $150."

These people, too, "deserve human rights". These same people that were asked by the rest of the Shiite factions to stop holding them hostage and leave their cities.

-Rudey

What I don't get about the whole thing is this-

1. You didn't get proper isntruction and you thought what you were doing (the box standing, nakedness, humiliation, etc) was ok

2. Maybe you felt it really was wrong, but you didn't go to a higher officer because you knew your fellow soldiers could make life very unpleasent for you

3. You took pictures because you felt that showed you weren't doing anything more than you were told

OK, I can sort of buy any of the above. BUT! What is with picture of that girl mugging in front of the guys like she's on vacation with Mickey Mouse?!?! How is that ok to her or anyone else? How did that help to break the prisoners? They couldn't even see her - they were blindfolded!? I don't know, I just don't get it....

I'm wondering what else will be coming out.... picture and video wise (as Rummy mentioned there was a lot more).

What I also have to wonder how some of these soldier's family members thought that these actions were either justified or blown out of proportion (i'm sure you've all seen some interviews).

However what I find most appalling (or sad) is the continuing noise made about the lack of training or intsruction... for the whole Brigade not to understand the basics of what was required of them is pathetic. I have participated in numerous exercises with both the Canadian and American armed forces, as both a "prisoner" and a guard; these were excercises held almost annually, and served to drive home the standards and practices required of soldiers (reservist and regulars).

its a face saving argument. If they can say they were trained to do this and were just following oders than it becomes legitimate. If they can claim that they had no training on handling prisoners and shouldn't have been there . . . well its been used before as a legal argument.

One of the way the police involved in Rodney King got away was that they claimed they were following the training that LAPD has for situations like that.

Sometimes in our country we believe that training somewhow supersedes common sense. Or else common sense can't exist without training.

What we have to consider is whether this is just the way we ntend to handle things unofficially and whether that it s bad thing.

I have to agree with you, RAC. My husband is an MP, and we talked about this last night when he called. They had very extensive EPW training...as a matter of fact...I have a manual here on my desk! He was not involved in any of this drama, BTW.

I'm by no means a 'political' person, but what exactly would Rumsfeld resiging accomplish? It just doesn make sense how his leaving would magically make everything better.

aj

There was an article about her yesterday in the New York Times...she's 21 and from WV, and joined the service as a way to get out of her nowhere town. Her family insists that the pictures were staged and there's NO WAY WHATSOEVER their sweet little angel could EVER do such a thing...she's back in the States now, and pregnant with the child of the US soldier she's posing with.

I have seen people trying to rationalize or explain her actions as a person in the wrong place at the wrong time, or someone who was mislead by orders from superiors.... but both are frankly bullshit... one she was NOT part of the staff responsible for guarding or moving the prisoners, she was infact a clerk resposible for processing the prison's paperwork.... two she actually had no right to be in the prison during the night shift visiting her boyfriend. So she put her self in the wrong place at the wrong time, she chose to contravine stand orders and procedures by visiting the prison wing...

it would show(politically) that the United States does not condone nor support such conduct; in addition it would show that the administration has some accountability (which it doesn't).

to put it in non-politcal terms: those photos have extremely angered people around the world, especially in the Middle East. The actions of those officers and the subsequent exposure of the matter have embarrassed our country, put us all in more danger, and have greatly increased the risks for our military. Rumsfeld resigning might help. Even he said himself in his testimony that he being removed from his position would send a positive message to the world, that we mean business on human rights. [I'm listening to the testimony now on C-SPAN but I don't have the exact quote.]

I talked to a retired military guy about this the other day . . .

What he was saying was this stuff was probably ordered. And in some ways may be business as usual.

He wasn't against it, he was just really incenced that pictures got out. He can't imagine how that would have happened.

But here is his logic: Prisoners need to be interrogated. We need to know their information. War is not a pleasant thing, its not a mental excercise.

Yes its not Official US policy to torture prisoners for information, but the information has to be gotten regardless. So alot of things happen unofficially.

He pointed out that it was the pictures that made everyone go nuts when in fact an investigation had been announced about this in January, but everyone ignored it.

So you have a situation where the CIA or Military Intellegence comes in and takes over interrogation, under cutting the One-Star General in charge.

As far as the role of the woman goes, she may very well have been used because she is female, as part of breaking the Iraqi's down through humiliation.

But, probably everyone will get nailed except for the intellegence operatives because no one will really be sure who they are lol.

a co-worker said the same thing, but i don't view gang raping a woman falls under interrogation practices.