Relations between the Jewish community and GLOs
 

Some of us started discussing this in the Christian org thread, but since there's a (very interesting!) theological debate going on over there... I didn't want to hijack the thread any further. :)

At my school, in my day, there was something of a split between Hillel and the greek community. Orthodox Jewish men tended not to go greek. Conservative and Reform men often did look into greek life; some kept their options open while others only considered AEPi (which is the only fraternity we had whose membership was predominantly Jewish). Orthodox women were more likely to consider greek life - I had three Orthodox pledge sisters.

The problem lay in the fact that the Orthodox men pretty much ran Hillel. Some Orthodox Jews consider members of the other movements to not truly be Jewish :rolleyes: and this was the prevailing attitude among the Orthodox at my school. "We have a problem with non-Orthodox Jews" + "A lot of non-Orthodox Jews are greek" => "We have a problem with the greek community." :(

Some greek orgs, notably AEPi and AEPhi, did things oriented toward the Jewish community (a break-fast after Yom Kippur, Tay-Sachs testing, etc) and Hillel did promote these things, but I think only reluctantly... the Orthodox wouldn't go.

From people I know who are still in that community, though, I gather that things have changed and Hillel is making efforts to reach out to greeks. :)

OK, my old boss told me this but it's a long time ago.

What is the difference between Conservative and Reform Judaism? If someone knows, could they do an analogy to Christian denominations?

Washington U. has such a large Jewish percentage student body and popular Greek system that there seems to be little issue. I know Hillel had a Greek shabbat (sp?) last year and the Greek population seems to be pretty evenly spread out among the chapters.

When I was an undergrad the only chapters that weren't predominantly Jewish (that I was aware of) were Theta and Kappa, Theta only because there were a lot of Asian girls, and Kappa because they tended to have the Southern WASP-y girls. Each did, however, have a number of Jewish girls. (The other chapters were Alpha Phi, Pi Phi, AEPhi, and DG.) I'm not sure of the population breakdown these days.

Not being Jewish myself, I couldn't tell you more about the tensions between the Orthodox/Conservative/Reform Jewish students/Greek students and Hillel. Most Greeks that are observant Jews I know did go to Hillel, so again, not much issue there.

(Actually, there wasn't much of an issue with the Christians and Greeks, either, that I know. People at WU tend to be pretty isolationist so there's not a lot of Bible-beating or protesting of Greek life, just the usual 'ew Greek life" from the GDIs)

Hillel is a national partner with AEPi and AEPhi. I don't know the extent for AEPhi, but I do for AEPi for sure. Also, Chabad does as well and so do groups like Aish. There was even an article about how Chabad on several campuses had done events with AEPi and had even lobbied on their behalf to obtain housing.

AEPi has gone even further than that to lobby for Israel, to develop and sponsor pro-Israel campaigns, to fight anti-semitism. The community has embraced this and if you look at the amount of programming and funding, it is clear that the international fraternity has excellent relations with the Jewish community at ALL levels whether religious, political, or cultural.

-Rudey

At my undergrad, Hillel involvement freshman year was virtually a pipeline to membership in either AEPi or Kappa Alpha Theta (which was majority Jewish there). There were very few Orthodox Jews that I knew personally, or even saw around campus, but they were still friendly with the Greek community.

We had an Orthodox sister...we didn't do much on Friday nights anyway (we usually had our parties and events on Saturdays), so it wasn't as if she was excluded.

Rutgers has a high Jewish population, and the Greek system is incredibly Jewish. Although SDT is the only Jewish sorority (and for fraternities we have ZBT and AEPi), most of the other chapters have high Jewish populations. the only two sororities I can think of that werent as Jewish, although they still had Jews, were Gamma Phi and Sig Kap. And Phi Sigma Sigma (but they left campus last year).

Most of the Jews are reform or conservative-- I think SDT had some orthodox, as did we. DG might have also. Those are the three chapters, at the time, that would be accepting. I dont think my chapter now would take an Orthodox girl, since they're big on trying to acheive 100% participation and they do a lot of things on Fridays. (hopefully not because they would be discriminating... the Jewish population of the chapter has gone down since I graduated).

there's more forms than those two, its kind of like a spectrum of how religious one is and how much of their life they devote to Judaism. The most religious are the Orthodox, and there's even different spectrum of them. Some wont associate with anyone who isnt like them. Then you have Modern Orthodox who might attend public schools but will adhere to certain styles of dress. Oh, and the Orthodox keep kosher, keep Shabbat holy (Shabbat is our Sabbath-- Friday night at Sundown to Sat night at Sundown), and a bunch of other practices I cant even begin to get into. (this is a VERY simplified version)

Conservative and Reform Jews are similiar in that we dress like "everyone else" (note: some Orthodox DO dress like everyone else, but consider themselves Orthodox because of how they practice. I am trying to sterotype only to make it easier for non-Jews to understand, not to disservice anyone).

I grew up conservative and practice Reform. You wouldn't be able to tell that I was Jewish unless you asked me. Conservatives are more stringent with adhering to Kosher laws and Shabbat rules than Reform Jews. Reform Jews usually dont keep kosher, and have a liberal view of the world (science, less apt to believe G-d as the Bible describes Him). TO be honest, I dont see a huge difference in Conservative and Reform Jews in actual practice. the songs are sung differently, and Reform services tend to have more English than Conservative, which is mostly in Hebrew.

Basically, the differences are not like Christian denominations-- its more of a spectrum in how much you practice and how much you adhere to Jewish law.

I didnt even get to Reconstructionists and other alternative types.. oh vey. :)

The relationship with the Jewish student body is much the same as with the Christian student body at UofT..... not so much between the GLOs though.

Currently there is AEPi and Delta Pi located at another university, but they do mix with us on occasion (Delta Pi has mixers with us every year or so). Personally I have noticed some antagonism from AEPi (some directed at me personally) towards some houses. They see themselves as the sole Jewish GLO, and as such all men intrested in joining a GLO should join them..... but the other GLOs don't see it that way.

I'd have to say that UofT has one of the most diverse GLO cultures, and basing your choice of a GLO on relgion, faith, or colour just doesn't play to well up here.

Yeah maybe those GLOs should just close down. Considering the fact that the AEPi at UofT is of a good size, healthy, and very involved in the community I would say your statement is baseless.

-Rudey

The HIGH POCROSY of I am Jewish ( Orthadox, Non Orthodox), The Christian, Roman, Anglecan, Luthern, The Islamic, Shiite, or what ever is getting a little thin!:(

Other Than I am better than thou SUCKS!:(

Hell, last I heard, you die, dead.!!!!!

I will come back as a danilion! Willow of the whisp!:rolleyes:

No, An Ant, so when the GC Gathersings are going on, I can be there to ant them! Get lots of travel miles but not by Delta!:mad:

They are brand new (1999) and have not made a good impression with most of the girls or guys I have talked to. They don't like the fact that Zeta Beta Tau is also trying to start up (well has been since the early 90s) and the other GLOs accept Jewish members (there alumni advisor actually told me off for this).

What doesn't play with people up here is the constant referal to faith, religion, colour... whatever. That is why they haven't "meshed" with the UofT GLO culture and Alpha Phi Alpha (1999) has. Yes APhiA is a black fraternity but they don't make it an issue and neither do we.

You make little sense.

They are brand new (1999) and have not made a good impression with most of the girls or guys I have talked to.

So brand new has something to do with what exactly? Oh ok. And so your impression of what others say is the end all, be all? Oh ok. And in terms of size, how big is your chapter and how big are they?

They don't like the fact that Zeta Beta Tau is also trying to start up (well has been since the early 90s) and the other GLOs accept Jewish members (there alumni advisor actually told me off for this).

In other words, you're saying you're not an AEPi but know how they feel. You've moved beyond sympathy towards empathy. Oh, ok.

What doesn't play with people up here is the constant referal to faith, religion, colour... whatever. That is why they haven't "meshed" with the UofT GLO culture and Alpha Phi Alpha (1999) has. Yes APhiA is a black fraternity but they don't make it an issue and neither do we.

I don't speak for, of, or on APhiA because I do not know them. But you've spoken like a pro so far, so I guess I'll just say "oh ok" to you again.

Now last time I checked, the guys in the UofT AEPi chapter were great. They were a large chapter given the fact that they were recent. They are highly decorated every year when it comes to awards. They have given the international fraternity several travelling consultants already. They are highly involved in the community and donate money and time and even did a holocaust rememberance ceremony there.

-Rudey
--Regardless of what you say and what you claim to know, they exist, they thrive, and those results obviously mean they are in demand even though they don't "mesh".

What was the point of this Tom? I'm really getting tired of some of the crap you put up old man. I'd be able to tell you that your post lacked intelligence if it wasn't written like Nell on crack. Just keep your mouth shut because it's not as cute as you think.

-Rudey

Meaning what exactly? Does AEPi's national office say to each chapter, you have to co-sponsor a certain amount of programming with Hillel each year? AEPhi doesn't have that level of association with Hillel - our chapter was never told that we had to actively co-sponsor programming with Hillel or anything like that. Most of the Jewish-oriented things we did was either by ourselves or co-sponsored with AEPi or somebody else; Hillel's only participation was some advertising. (We got in good with the administrator ;) )

I know AEPhi is a national partner. I don't know your involvement and to what extent.

We are strongly encouraged to have programming with Hillel. A lot of the top Hillel board members are AEPis. Also there is a lot of funding made available to do things along with Hillel. Nationally you can ask for grants for certain programming and receive it at the local level. There are Friday night dinners, parties, break-fasts, seders, political talks across different spectrums...everything on every single level.

In general, a lot of AEPi chapters do rush folks at Hillel. A lot of hillels are also run by AEPi members and even their executive directors are often given honorary initiations. It goes into even greater involvement than that.

This doesn't mean that AEPi is an extension of Hillel. It never was and never will be. AEPi does Jewish programming because it is "The Jewish Fraternity". Go to the website. Look at the very top of the page. But AEPi caters to what its brothers want and usually along with the responsibility we hold to the community, we also have our own social programming. We do stuff with AEPhi, SDT, DPhiE, or whomever else. On my campus, we didn't have those sororities but AEPi had its date nights, it had its formal, it had its raunchy parties, it competed and did well in both IM sports and sorority competitions, and it also did programming with both Hillel and Chabad (phoneathons, community service, friday night dinners, seders, and sponsoring political speakers). This was my campus and not every campus. Some schools don't have a single Jewish student and the AEPi chapter reflects that. Some schools are not too close to Hillel for whatever reason, but most are and most manage to rush kids who go to Hillel.

Edited to add: AEPi has seen a surge in numbers and chapters in the last 5 years. A lot of it is attributed to the deeper involvement in the Jewish community.

-Rudey

I was under the impressions the reason that the UofT AEPi's don't 'mesh' with the rest of the Toronto Greeks is because they don't try ... are they even recognized on campus?

I don't have the answer to whether they are recognized.

Can I flip this on you and ask you a few questions?

-What does meshing mean? Should they exist to please other fraternities and GLOs?

-How would you suggest that they "try"? Do you know for sure that they don't? Have the other sororities tried to do any programming with them?

-Rudey

Ah Rudey, this Old Man has seen so much more than Your little time on earth has and maybe ever see!:)

I would love to say something derogatory about you, but you do it your self!:( Oh, I and I might say so well!:D

Tom, you may have seen a lot but you've gone through life with one eye open. I don't have much else to say.

-Rudey

They are trying a little more (along with APhiA) to involve themselves in the GLO community. I have seen them once or twice at the Maddy, but other than that no. As for mixers I haven't personally heard of anything (I don't know any of the actives personally and the alumni and me don't exactly get along). It would be nice to see them at any of the Greek Week events or to come out to any of the pub nights, parties, or sport's nights.

As for recognition that's a little complicated. UofT GLOs are not offically recognized by UofT on an indvidual basis. For example KKG isn't recognized but Pan Hel is. AEPi has some recognition because of Hillel, but only as pertaining to philanthropy events (they do a food and clothing drive). So if they wanted to set up a booth for recruitment, the colleges would say no; but if the wanted to set up a drop-off point for their food/clothing drive then the colleges can decide on a case by case basis (for example I approved as president of Woodsworth 2 years ago).

I am a Jewish girl in a nationally recognized Christian Sorority. In my chapter there are about 15 Jewish members. There has never been an issue with missing an event due to a religious holiday etc. We tend not to schedule events during a holiday etc.. If something does occur we are of course excused. A lot of my sisters who arn't Jewish often come to Hillel for events. Hillel even used our chapter room for an event :D . I have never been in a situation where I've had to choose my religion over my sisters!

My chapter did the same thing. In addition, we ruled that we could not schedule events on the major holidays of any religion that a sister or new member practiced. This led to an interesting argument between me and our president when she wanted to schedule chapter on Easter Sunday... I had to explain to her in really little words that Christian holidays don't end at sunset like Jewish holidays do :p

The only problem was that round 1 of rush was Friday night and Saturday, and a couple of our Orthodox sisters refused to participate, leaving us short on sisters at the worst time...

We almost never hold chapter events on Friday or Christian Holidays either but we never made it a by-law. The sad part is there are GLO's on my campus that have not give people bids because they can't come to Friday events because of religious observances and it's really sad.

And as for AEPhi's affiliation with Hillel, we do have a national affiliation with Hillel (I confirmed this with my Traveling Education Consultant last semester) but as chapter President I have never seen anything done with this affiliation. We have never been specifically told we have to participate in their events or support them by National during the years I have been active.

I'm sure I can guess at least two GLO's that do this, and my opinion on them is that the PNM's are better off going where they are wanted. If a GLO dosen't want to respect a persons holidays, who knows what else they might choose not to respect?

is that in your chapter by-laws or your national? were Recruitment events held on Shabbat? I know here SDT participated in all events on Shabbat here, and probably any religious girls just excluded themselves. Also, SDT wasnt exclusively Jewish, so there were always girls to represent them.


No problem :D I realize I completely oversimplified things, but oh well.

My chapter never held events on main Jewish or Christian holidays. The chapter was very considerate of the holidays because so many of us were Jewish.

I know you directed this at Buttonz... but for AEPhi, no, the idea of not having mandatory events on Jewish holidays is not dictated by nationals - it was something my chapter chose to do, seeing as we had so many Jewish members. We are very open and welcoming to those of other faiths, which is why we added that we would not have mandatory events on the major holidays of any other religion that a member practiced.

Round 1 of formal recruitment was held on Shabbat. :mad: That was the only exception that we made to the "no events on holidays" rule, since Panhel dictated the dates. Any Jewish sister could ask to be excused. But my chapter was by far the smallest on campus to begin with, and not having some sisters around during round 1 only emphasized that. :(

ETA: Then there was the time that our (Jewish!) director of Greek Life scheduled a mandatory IFC president's meeting ON YOM KIPPUR... (sororities were IFC members at the time)

I feel ya :( Yeah, we always had formal recruitment on Shabbat, but I guess we're all too secular too care (at least the Jews in my chapter, I dont know about SDT, we didnt have AEPhi..)


woah... I dont think we ever had anything scheduled on a major holiday, we'd all freak.

I'd say on a campus of about 40,000 students, 20% being Jewish... the Greek system had to be about 50%-- "Jersey Japs..." I can say that, being one :P

It's our chapter by-laws, not national. THen again, we have 70% Jewiwhs all in diffrent levels. Being as a commuter school, no recruitment events are held Fri-Sundays so there is no problems there :)

We pretty much did. The only two Jewish chapter presidents at the time were ours and AEPi's... when they saw the meeting notification, they met with the Greek Life director and asked him to move it. He claimed that he'd had a sticky note on his calendar covering the words "Yom Kippur" so he hadn't realized it was Yom Kippur when he set the date :rolleyes: but then he refused to reschedule the meeting. So the presidents of AEPi and AEPhi didn't go.

that stinks....

I think my senior year, the chapter presidents who off the top of my head who were Jewish (I feel like Adam Sandler)... AXO, DG, SDT, AEPi, ZBT, I think Phi Delt, and not sure if ZTA's was... but when definitely 3 (4?) of the 7 sorority presidents are Jewish, we didn't have anything on a holiday.

at most schools, my sorority is comprised of mainly Jewish girls
i think delta phi epsilon is the same way
i think that it is because they are both non-secretarian sororities

actually, its my understanding that DPhiE was founded by Jewish women, and although it is not a Jewish sorority like AEPhi, the girls who chose to join there on many campuses are Jewish.

Phi Sig at my school was actually one of the least Jewish.

Careful with the "Jewish sorority" label... :)

AEPhi was founded in 1909 by seven Jewish women. My understanding is that some or all of them rushed the existing sororities at Barnard and were turned away because they were Jewish. So they formed their own sorority based on Jewish ideals but open to women of all faiths.

I hate the label "Jewish sorority" because it makes it sound like we're only open to Jewish women, which is not the case. I prefer "historically Jewish" because it indicates that we were founded by Jewish women with Jewish ideals, but that doesn't mean we'll turn you away if there's a cross instead of a star around your neck.

That said - like begets like. A chapter that's predominantly Jewish is attractive to some Jewish women. They know they'll never have to attend a mandatory event on Shabbat, they'll have sisters to sit with at Hillel functions, etc. So most AEPhi chapters are, and remain, predominantly Jewish in their membership.

my sorority isn't Jewish
my sorority is non secretarian
i don't know why most of the boston/baltimore area chapters are comprised mainliy of Jewish girls

Here's something I've wondered:

Do Jewish girls that are in so called "Christian" sororities (ADPi, Pi Phi, KD, etc...) feel out of place or uncomfortable in anyway? I'm Jewish and I have never felt "different" in Delta Gamma. But it's something I've wondered.

What school are you at white?

For the record, D Phi E is non-sectarian, and was founded by 5 Jewish women who were turned away for their faith from other sororities. They decided to form a sorority that was not on the basis of religion, but on moral character, sisterhood, etc. The reason some chapters of D Phi E may have a large Jewish membership is because back in the day, it was one of the only sororities that would accept them, so they have a strong Jewish legacy.

We have a handful of Jewish girls in our "Christian" sorority, and while I can't speak directly for them, I can say that, as an agnostic, I feel a little uncomfortable sometimes, so I bet that they do too. I think it all depends on whether or not your ritual contains references to the New Testament -- there are many NPC sororities that do and at least a few NPC groups that members have told me don't reference religion at all in their ritual.

Of course, it all depends on the flavor of your individual chapter. My chapter has a lot of girls who aren't very religious, so they are no Tri Delta Bible studies or groups that head to church together on Sunday mornings. I would feel more uncomfortable in a group like that than I feel in a group that references religion in ritual.

There were posts in the rush forum, I think, on how to deal with Christianity (or any religion) in ritual if you're not a religious person or a Christian. Most groups are pretty understanding about it.

hmm.. in our ritual there is a spot for prayer and brief mention of G-d, but our chapter just skipped over any religious content.

I do wonder, do NPC chapters HAVE to take girls regardless of their religion? I know for traditionally Christian chapters, it would be discriminatory to only take Christians, but is it allowed? 1) how does one prove the chapter is choosing people based on religion and 2) are sororities considered private organizations that can exclude members based on those factors, since they are allowed to exclude by using other criteria?

thats an interesting topic to write a paper on... (hehe, the law school mind constantly thinks what the next paper topic should be)