Uncle tom fad
 

Is it New School to be Uncle Toms? I understand having white friends, but do we have to adopt their intonation when we talk?

I am white and have many African American friends... I love my friends - they are beautiful women!!!

But I hate the words "Uncle Tom" - is that still true today?

I would think the opposite ... I see so many white children who adopt the ways of many stars who are African American -- come on.. there are too many to say but they are so good looking, smart and successful!

Sorry if I am offending anyone... just speaking my mind.

http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif Sue

I don't understand what you mean when you say adopt their intonation. I, for one, spent the first ten years of my life in a predominantly white neighborhood. When I moved to a predominantly black neighborhood, people begin to tell me that I talked like a white person. I was never sure what they meant. Then someone broke it down for me, they said that the tone of my voice what a white tone of voice (whatever that means). My speech merely reflected what had been my surroundings for the past 10 years. It was not something that I consciously chose, but just a byproduct of my childhood.
Twelve years later, after living in a predominantly black neighborhood and associating mostly with black people ( I hardly know any white people that I would consider friends), some black folks still tell me that I sound like a white person and it offends me every time. I am not an Uncle Tom in any sense of the word, yet every someone says that to me, I feel as though they are calling me a sell-out.

[This message has been edited by Little32 (edited April 07, 2001).]

A sista needs clarification...

Are you saying that if a person speaks "white" then he or she is an Uncle Tom?

huh?

I still don't understand. How can someone "sound" white? Do you mean by the actual sound or the way they speak? I for one was born and raised in the hood but that does not mean that I do not speak clearly and annunciate my words. I can go from the boardroom to the block and no one would be the wiser.

Can you give us a specific example of what exactly you are talking about?

All I can do at this time is to refer you to my last post. When certain people I know are around white people, they tend to change their pronunciation, intonation, behavior, and everything else. It appears to me that they prefer to be with them, act like them, and speak like them. I'm aware of the fact that it is their choice, but I've also seen these same white friends in anger call these same black people nigger; and these black folk continue to associate with them as if nothing happened. They seem totally oblivious to the fact that these people don't want their forgiveness or friendship. These very same black people AVOID other black people.

I don't know; I guess I can't explain it. It's an ugly sight to see them try so hard to avoid us and be accepted by them, adopting their ways, intonation, etc., and then hear these same folk talk about them like dogs behind their backs.

I think I understand what you are saying. It is not whether or not they can speak "proper" but whether or not they try to emmulate (sp? or immitate) the White people they hang around because they think that other White people will see that they can talk just like them.

If my understanding is correct, then I would have to say that it would depend on the situation. On one hand, you can't really stereotype the "BLACK" sound because no two Black people sound alike. That being the case, you are always going to have people who give the intonation of sounding "WHITE." That is not their fault so therefore, no, they are not Uncle Tom's. To use your argument, you could say that Christina Aguleria (sp?) gives the intonation of sounding Black when she sings because she chose to listen to Black music all her life. I feel that she's one of the few WHITE (well she's half Hispanic but I'm going on looks here) people who has a good naturally sounding soulful voice. She is not immitating Black people, rather that is her talent.

On the other hand, if they are going the way of Claraence Thomas (or others you can think of), then yes they are Uncle Tom's, sell outs or whatever you want to call them.

112

TheOriginalApe -
Do you mean speaking with good diction and correct articulation as opposed to speaking with a "valley girl" tone of voice? Just trying to figure it out. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif

I understand the need to clarify this post; so yall wish me luck. First, I am NOT saying that associating with white people makes one an uncle tom. Also, I am NOT saying that a person that talks properly is "talkin' white". There is a difference between talking properly(good diction) and sounding white(intonation). I know people that were born black and hate that fact sooo much, that they refuse to come around their family and people they grew up with because these people REMIND THEM of their difference from their current friends. Despite being in different parts of the country, one thing binds ALL of these people together; their newly adopted intonation. Anyone out there that watches "REAL WORLD" on MTV(I don't watch it; I'm just using two characters from this show to make my point), pay attention to "Ruthie" and "Tek". Listen to how they talk, and watch how they act. Watch and listen closely; you'll see what I mean. All of that aint necessary to maintain a friendship; if it is, that friendship aint worth it.

OHHHHHHHHH! I Get it NOW!

We called those kind of people when I was in Jr. High, "oreos" and if they were really trying too hard, we'd call them "double stuff". LOL

Thank you KnowledgeEternal and AKA2D. I guess I made a mess of this topic. I don't think I'll try it again. I hope through my clumsiness with this topic that I haven't offended anyone.



[This message has been edited by The Original Ape (edited April 08, 2001).]

AHHH! I had it wrong!
:-( :-(''''( they need one of these smileys for tear drops)

112

112,

Naw, you had it right too. In fact, you said it best when you mentioned emulation and immitation.

I meant to mention you with the others.

Thanks for your help.

I get what he is saying. He is talking about people who get around white people and try as hard as they can to fit in, even if it means neglecting their heritage. Example:

"Joe Schmoe was raised in the projects in DC. He plays with all the kids listens to all the same music and everything. Eventually he graduates from HS and goes to college. He gets a degree and the industry in which he works has a much higher percentage of whites than blacks. He mainly associates with whites. He begins to try to dress like them and emulate their talking styles. He does everything to try and fit in with them including neglecting where he came from. He does not want his associates to think that he "acts" black."

It has nothing to do with how someone talks. It is more a question of how they carry themselves. So in that respect I would have to say that this is not a "New School" thing. As far back as we have been here, people of the African Extraction have tried to fit in with society at-large.

LMAO @ "double stuff"!!!! LOL!

"THEY", at work get on my case daily if "THEY" could for acting too Black... Oh well... Wait til I come out wit my Jeri Curl!!! Hey, yo man, that's my curl activata!

LOL - I REALLY understand what you are saying frat. For those that need clarification this is my example. When I first attended a black college everyone would say "What's Up!" I would respond by saying "Hi - How are you" in a loud happy voice. That's has been many years ago for me but just the memory is sad and funny at the same time. While I'm not ashamed of my background, I find that individuals often act and speak differently given a particular setting. I certainly don't consider myself an Uncle Tom but I am guilty of changing the tone and the vernacular used in different settings. I don't think this is a bad thing. I just use what I have and know to be successful wherever I may be.

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"The World Belongs to Those Who Care Deeply,
Who Dream Broadly, and Who Work Steadfastly."

"uncle tom" demeanor is nothing more than clever assimilation--you know that. And in case you're wondering my identity--I am from the Sons of Sudan, '83.

WAZ UP, SPEC!!!!!!! 'bout time we got some mo representation!!! Let's sho 'em how we do it in the MIDWEST!!!! one nine, two five, ALPHA TAU IS STILL ALIVE!!!!!!!

key #40 I presume!!!!!

Okay, now we're going too far. Dress like them?????????????????? What's dressing "white," Ralph Lauren and Izod? What's dressing "black," all FUBU gear and Tims? If a white person came up to me and said something like that, we'd be in the mix. It sounds no better when we say stuff like that...

How can you be sure that they were faknig it? In the scenes where Ruthie is with her two sisters, she acts the same way. So I never thought her behavior was a front. Tek, I'm not sure of because there weren't many Blacks in Hawaii that he interacted with. Perception is key, and remember, we're seeing there lives through MTV's filter, so who knows if they were trying hard to get along, or if that is really how they behave.

What one may perceive as "trying hard" to be someone thay are not, may actually be someone gelling with people who accept them for who they are.

I'm talking from personal experience, because I got along best with Blacks who came from a similar background as myself. We were a considerably small minority of the Black students population. Because of the way we talked and acted, we were ostracized by the Blacks becasue we didn't fit their mold of "accceptable behavior." But the White and Asian students were much more accepting of our differences, so we got along better with them. Its not always about turning your back, it could be about hanging with people who like the things that you like.

I would never trade being Black for anything, and I love who I am. But skin color is not a road map for one's behavior.

No problem T.O.A. I was just checking to see that we are all on the same page.

112

You are taking my post out of context. When I said dress like them I meant that he dressed like his new white friends. That does not have to insinuate certain designers and/or brands. It is just the way in which he dressed.

Example, Say that my wardrobe consisted of mostly khakis and jeans. I start to hang out with some people that wear mostly shorts and slacks so I start to wear the same things just to fit in.(I know its a corny example; but its the best I could come up with off the cuff)

I hope that helps to explain what I meant by that comment.

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"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Thanks for the clarification. I guess I was having flashbacks of folks in high school saying I wore "white girl sneakers" (Tretorns) and played a "white instrument" (violin) and wanting to slap the stupid out of their mouths. I've also witnessed people saying stuff like "so and so dresses like a white girl...", so I thought you were speaking from that vein. Never mind my previous post.

That's my Key, Bruh!!! Are you on line from home?

I would never trade being Black for anything, and I love who I am. But skin color is not a road map for one's behavior

I agree with your statement; however, I still have noticed some people trying toooo damned hard to be accepted by their white counter-parts.

Some of us are....

Perception, perception, perception...

I was raised to speak with correct diction, subject-verb agreement, correct enunciation, etc. etc. You get my drift. I was also raised to 'deal' with people on all levels. I am 100% black female who loves every melanin drop of my heritage.

I say all of this to give you background on what I'm consistently faced with from my family and strangers on the street. My cousins and I spent our early childhood years together. I moved from Cleveland when I was 8. They consistently make stupid comments like "you sound like a white girl when you answer the phone" or " dayum, we must seem ghetto to you". Now, I love my people to death in all of their glory; yet, they perceive from my outward appearance (i.e. my diction, clothes I wear, etc.) that I personify "white folk". From strangers on the street (I live in DC), I am constantly asked "You don't sound or look like you're from here. Where you from?" "Are you mixed, what island you from?" I tell you it drives me nuts! "When I breathe in deeply and state that I'm black and no I ain't mixed with nothin'! They look at me as if I'm lying!

So my point (long-time coming I know), is that from my experience-people's perception of you may be 360 degrees different than what is the authentic you. Furthermore, I refute the claim that talking "white" (WTF is that anyway) and dressing a certain way definitely does not make one 'an uncle Tom'. It's simply in the ATTI-TUUUDE and within the make-up of a person's character that makes them an Uncle Tom. Clarence T knows what I'm talkin bout.

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"Unless you know the road you've come down, you cannot know where you are going"
~Temme proverb, Sierre Leone~

I appreciate your point. In fact, everybody that responded had good points. When I posted this, I was refering to people that totally dismiss their culture-in every way they can, deliberately; not those that speak properly and maintain their relationships with their own. I have to go back and see what I possibly had said that made people miss my point. The fact that I used an adopted intonation as an example may be the culprit. Perhaps I didn't explain what I meant well enough. If that's the case, again I apologize. Most people know who/what I'm referring to. Again, you have a good point.

I think the "intonement" part was the culprit, also. It kinda makes people (incluing myself) feel like our skin color is being linked to the way we talk.

From reading more of the posts, I am guessing that you were referring to people who, lets say, reluctantly decide to abandon all that is "ethnic" about them because they feel that they will be better off. Kinda like people who benefitted from Affirmative Action, then as soon as they get the card to the Country Club, they want to shut down the program.

I guess I could agree that that behavior would might be en vouge. With the growth of the Black upper and middle classes, we have not found unity. We don't have many upper middle class Black neighborhoods that are easy to find. (I'm in Boston, so I'm speaking for my area) There are many, but they are so scattered across the country, that moving might not be a viable option for most. So, instead, they align themselves with the closest alternative-people who may not appreciate their differences. So, in order to fit in, they assimilate.

Do I have it right yet?

In that case, I would agree that assimilation is a no-no.

Ok, I have a question. When TOA (or anyone for that matter) used intonation as an example for "talking white," some people got bent out of shape. Is it not true that some (not all) white people do have an accent that is different from our own? Most of their sentences end on an up note, where as ours are down. Y'all know what I'm talking about. Would it be any different if when I went down south I spoke with a southern accent? Or if I went to Boston and spoke with an east coast accent? Why do people take offense when someone uses the phrase "talking white?" If that's all you know, then ok. But if you only do it when around certain people, that's an issue.

I don't know. Sometimes I wonder. We try to be so inclusive that sometimes many of us overlook the obvious. White people speak differently from us, on average. I just don't understand why we walk on eggshells with this type of stuff. Yet the minute we hear someone with a southern accent (if you're up north), we ask them, where are you from? No offense taken. When it involves race, it's a whole different ball game. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif

By the way, I don't think that people who talk with a different intonation than me are Uncle Toms. I thought I would clarify that since my post really had nothing to do with the original topic. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by Ideal08 (edited April 12, 2001).]

That's close enough.

I wish everybody on Greekchat could see the kinds of people that I work with. I tried(and failed miserably)to describe them; and now I know that words can't describe them.

Jaz, I think you missed my point, LOL! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif Separate the accent and the proper English. It's two different things. I agree with you, correct diction is definitely not a white thang. I was speaking purely of accent and intonation. Hence, you can "talk white" without using correct grammar. Feel me? NEVER would I credit my use of correct grammar and whatnot to being a 'white thang.' Giiirrrl, please! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif

Yep, I guess I missed ya. So, I think you're saying that the way they enunciate certain words and use differnet speech patterns is what you'd call talking white vs what I thought you meant as using proper grammer, etc. That's probably more along the lines of what TOA was saying. Why do I feel that we've beat the hell out of this topic? Thanks for the clarification. I should have know that your thoughts were not in that direction! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

Ideal08, I know what you're talking about when you say we end on a down note and they end up. People are definitely too sensitive. It has nothing to do with grammar. To some ignorant folks, that's what it means. But I know I definitely use proper english and 'speak well'. But there is a difference in our voices and our tone. For example, one of my coworkers was speaking on the phone with someone for me and I asked him did he sound 'Black' and he said yes. And I know for a fact that the person speaks well in terms of grammar but that his voice and tone were definitely indicators of his race. Now can one tell all of the time? No. But let's keep it real you can pretty much determine whether someone's white or black just by hearing their voice. And there is nothing wrong with admitting it. However if one means that using proper English is white, then that's a whole other story.

I personally don't find that speaking with proper diction and grammar is a personification of talking white. There are white people out there who do not have a command of the English language themselves. There's a huge difference between someone with an accent vs an inability to speak with proper diction/grammar. I simply refuse to credit my proper use of English as a 'white thang'.

I recall reading something on this topic years ago, so bear with me.

The difference between a Black person and a white person, from the same area and using the same grammar is usually the amount of nasalization and the richness of the voice. Most whites tend to speak thru their nose hence sounding very 'nasal' whereas most Blacks speak from the throat and sound more 'earthy'. The difference in nasality and richness can also be heard in singing voices.

Now these are generalizations but I would venture to say that they are pretty accurate when examining how 'most' people speak (or is it talk?).

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MCCOYRED
Mu Psi '86
BaltCo Alumnae

Dynamic...Salient...Temperate...Since 1913

Would sound be a better word?