Men and Committment
 

NEW YORK (Reuters) -- It's official. Men really are afraid of commitment.

Confirming what women have long known, an American study released on Wednesday shows men are dragging their feet on getting married.

Researchers say one of the biggest reasons that men are delaying marriage is that more and more couples are choosing to live together before marriage. As a result, sex -- traditionally one of the main reasons for men to marry -- is relatively easily available, they say.

"In a sense, with cohabitation he gets a quasi-wife without having to commit," said David Popenoe, co-director of the National Marriage Project at Rutgers University in New Jersey.

"Another big thing in addition to cohabitation is that these men are very, very concerned about divorce. It's not getting your heart broken ... the worst thing that could happen is that somebody could take their money," Popenoe adds.

The preliminary findings report on the attitudes toward marriage of 60 unmarried, heterosexual men, between the ages of 25-33. The participants, from different religious, ethnic and family backgrounds, were from four major metropolitan areas in northern New Jersey, Chicago, Houston, and Washington, D.C.

Researchers say both men and women are putting off getting married. The average age for men's first marriage is now 27, the oldest in history, the study shows. That compares to the average age of 23 in 1960, Popenoe said.

For women, the average age of their first marriage has risen to 25, a full five years older than the 1960 average.

And giving women even more reason to be impatient that their boyfriends are dragging their feet, researchers say the trend favors the men.

"Guys can afford to wait to marry. The older they get, the better their chances in some ways of getting married, while for women it's the reverse," Popenoe said.

"Once a woman gets into her 30s, it's more likely that she will have to marry a man who was married earlier. It's more likely that she will marry a man who brings kids (into the marriage) and more likely that she will have a child by herself," Popenoe says.

Copyright 2002 Reuters. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

It took an in-depth study to confirm what we know via basic common sense?

Well I am wearing my flame-retardant suit, so here I go...

I, for one, am tired of everyone blaming men for being scared to committ. I am a woman and I HATE the idea of committment. I know several other women who feel the same way. So what does that prove? NOTHING! Just because 60 of the men they picked out are afraid of committment, it doesn't mean they all are. I think that most of us operate on the stereotype of men being "players," and not ready to settle down.

Both sexes have issues with comittment, if you ask me. It doesn't fall more on one than the other. But we have been socialized to think that men are more susceptible to fear of committment. I just don't think it is true.

Sigh...let the flaming begin, lol!

I don't even really know what to say
 

I feel you librasoul... I no longer have a desire to commit, either. Nothing is like I thought it would be, so I guess I need to get my head out of the clouds, and just sit and wait on it. The article doesn't surprise me, like you said TLAW, common sense.

LOL @ Libra

Now, c'mon, you know y'all sound a little pessimistic now...

I promise not to flame :D

But the report did say the findings were preliminary, so further research may prove otherwise or it may confirm the results. So we must remember that this report never assumes that its findings are set in stone.

But, the facts behind what happens to men and women who wait longer to commit to marriage are indeed completely accurate. No matter what concepts or ideas we may hold about the sexes- valid or not, women who wait longer to marry are at a greater risk of being alone forever.

Now, I'm just a youngin' so I'm not looking to commit or build a nest, etc. so the results don't affect me or my dating habits. And, it will probably not affect the dating habits of most people. But, when it does start to matter (when those clocks start ticking), then the results may become more relevant. It's more about lifelong trends in relationships rather than who is shacking up with whom.

Would you ladies say that this trend is accurate for black men?

Black men have SO many more things to worry about than commitment!! Not to say that any one thing takes precedence, but I, personally, would rather worry about how I am going to get an education, land a job, and try not to get shot down in the street by the cops BEFORE I even try to fix my mind to think about commitment.

Hey, man...can't really speak for anyone but myself...but from my personal experiences, committing isn't all it is cracked up to be. Mind you, I am not saying that it will never be. But right now, I am quite content to not have any strings attached.

Not so much pessimistic...
 

more like discouraged. I don't know... talking to male friends, seeing how some of yall's minds work... it's discouraging. And then add to that personal experiences? Please. I'm hardly a pessimist. IDEALism is great, you know I think so, lol, but things are just not cool right now, lol.

Men and Committment
 

Well I also am not very optimistic about finding a man who wants to committ. All of my friends are married and have families and I can't seem to find a decent man. I know that is partly because I am too picky for my own good. But now I also feel that I am not ready to committ.I am trying to do my thang. Having only really cared about 1 person and being with him for 4 yrs and him trying to do me very dirty...I ain't committing to jack!!! Okay I had to vent a little.Some brothas know they wrong!

But its all good. I am having fun doing my thang :p

Well, being picky is not necessarily bad.

You ain't nevah, evah, evah lied!!!!

I always say hold out for what you really want because when you settle, you'll just end up wasting time and realizing that you should have held out for Mr. Right instead of Mr. He'll Do.

Re: Men and Committment
 

Girl, girl, girl.... girl. Girl. You know, the whole thing makes me think of that Jay-Z song, Song Cry.

A face of stone, was shocked on the other end of the phone
Word back home is that you had a special friend
So what was oh so special then?
You have given away without gettin at me
That's your fault, how many times you forgiven me?
How was I to know that you was plain sick of me?
I know the way a n***a livin was whack
But you don't get a n***a back like that!
Sh*t I'm a man with pride, you don't do sh*t like that
You don't just pick up and leave and leave me sick like that
You don't throw away what we had, just like that
I was just f****n them girls, I was gon' get right back
They say you can't turn a bad girl good
But once a good girl's goin bad, she's gone forever..
And more forever
Sh*t I gotta live with the fact I did you wrong forever

Live wit' it, playa. Shoulda thought about that!!! :mad:

I figured I'd vent, too, lol. I ain't bitter, though. :p

Re: Re: Men and Committment
 

Yeah...it is not that deep...TLAW some of us have just decided that AS OF RIGHT NOW...men are not worth the headache. It is all to the good though, it is not a permanent thing!

http://marriage.rutgers.edu/



**************************









Study: 'Guys can afford to wait to marry'
June 27, 2002 Posted: 11:19 AM EDT (1519 GMT)






NEW YORK (Reuters) -- It's official. Men really are afraid of commitment.

Confirming what women have long known, an American study released on Wednesday shows men are dragging their feet on getting married.

Researchers say one of the biggest reasons that men are delaying marriage is that more and more couples are choosing to live together before marriage. As a result, sex -- traditionally one of the main reasons for men to marry -- is relatively easily available, they say.

"In a sense, with cohabitation he gets a quasi-wife without having to commit," said David Popenoe, co-director of the National Marriage Project at Rutgers University in New Jersey.

"Another big thing in addition to cohabitation is that these men are very, very concerned about divorce. It's not getting your heart broken ... the worst thing that could happen is that somebody could take their money," Popenoe adds.

The preliminary findings report on the attitudes toward marriage of 60 unmarried, heterosexual men, between the ages of 25-33. The participants, from different religious, ethnic and family backgrounds, were from four major metropolitan areas in northern New Jersey, Chicago, Houston, and Washington, D.C.

Researchers say both men and women are putting off getting married. The average age for men's first marriage is now 27, the oldest in history, the study shows. That compares to the average age of 23 in 1960, Popenoe said.

For women, the average age of their first marriage has risen to 25, a full five years older than the 1960 average.

And giving women even more reason to be impatient that their boyfriends are dragging their feet, researchers say the trend favors the men.

"Guys can afford to wait to marry. The older they get, the better their chances in some ways of getting married, while for women it's the reverse," Popenoe said.

"Once a woman gets into her 30s, it's more likely that she will have to marry a man who was married earlier. It's more likely that she will marry a man who brings kids (into the marriage) and more likely that she will have a child by herself," Popenoe says.

Ideal & Strawberry,

I'm with y'all-DISCOURAGED! Most of y'all know that I live in Minnesota. Not only are the men scared of commitment, they're scared to ask you to dance at First Fridays?! :confused: I'm still shook on that one. There is no point in looking, we might as well make OURSELVES the bomb so when God blesses us with someone, we'll be totally ready!

P.S. Ideal, I know you really know what I'm talking about...we won't go back to Valentine's Day '02...

You know what, and while I'm at it, I gotta question. Why is it that every guy that is trying to holla at me 1) married 2) at least, ten years my senior 3) has about three children by two different women 4)straight GARBAGE 5) has been married at least two times?! C'mon now!

I'm getting frustrated...so that's why I'm DISCOURAGED!

Being a St Paul native, I refuse to believe that all the Minn brothers are that bad! Still, all your arguments can be flipped, you know. Not all women instil the need to settle down in men, and some are just downright scandalous. Same principle applies: Do not settle. There are good people, who can fulfill most of your desires. Now, I believe pursuit of Mr 100% Perfect is unreasonable, and some people are just impossible to satisfy. What are those attributes that you consider reasonable?

Who are we talkin' about here? Who is supposed to instill in men to settle down? His mama? Cuz I know you ain't talkin' about his girl. We do dang near everything but beg for our ring!!! LOL! I think that's a message that needs to come from a man. I don't know, don't get me started on this, please, lol.

As far as some women being scandalous, it's a reason they got that way. Just like there are reasons why men cheat (Michael Baisden's book was the bomb). Vicious cycle, vicious cycle. *SIGH* Will the circle ever be unbroken?

And then it's like... what part do you settle on? I mean, what part of the relationship is not that important? If you find a hard working man who doesn't do as well on his night job, then what? Or if you find a man who works the hell outta his night job but is a buster, then what? Or he is well educated but is a womanizer? Or he is uneducated but hard working yet feels intimidated by your education? Or he is easy to talk to but is unmotivated and has no drive? Can I PLEASE get the total package?? My ex told me that I wanted it ALL and I can't have it ALL. Why not? :(

Then, when we're not discouraged, and we want a commitment, and we're looking for it, we are seen as desperate. WTF??? So, d*mn all that. I'm cool with me, and I'm going to kick it for a while.

Del, don't make ME go back to Birthday '02. Busters, I swear, lol.

TLAW...based SOLELY on your posts, I would say you are a pretty good man. Unfortunately, you are an exception. NOW...do not read that to mean that there are no good men. What I mean is that you seem to grasp the concept that most men, and WOMEN for that matter, cannot until they have lived a while. It is maturity.

It is also mature, in my opinion, to realize it when you are not fully prepared to commit to someone else. That is how I feel right now.

Why is it the woman's responsibility to instill a need to settle down? It is each individuals responsibility to instill/determine when they are ready to settle down.

Attributes that are reasonable? Explain. Like are you asking for ideal characteristics in a mate?

Like you said earlier, being picky is not a bad thing. Settling down does not mean settling for .

Well, thank you, Libra! *blushes*. Me and you go a lil ways back on Greekchat, don't we?
Anyways, I did not mean to imply that it was a woman's responsibility to make her man want to settle down. What I meant was that some women are just as bad, and make men want to run away. Like you said Ideal, it is a vicious cycle.
My humble words of advice are concepts you guys have already figured out: do not settle. And like Libra said, do not settle for .

Tlaw,

What's up fellow Minnesotan! It's great to meet others from the state. Maybe I'm having a problem because I'm a native of Mississippi and moved here...don't know. But, to respond to your comment about the brothas in Minnesota, let me tell you it is that bad. I don't know how bad it's been since you've visited, but trust, this is definitely the real deal.

Agreeing on what Libra said, it's apparent that you're an extremely cool brotha, which definitely makes you an exception! True, there are some scandalous sistas out there, but I know that I'm not one. In your last post you stated for us not to settle...that's exactly what so many of us women don't do and that's why we feel discouraged. That's all I'm saying.

What are we defining as commitment? GEtting married? Getting married is NO definite way to know that your man is committed. Do not be discouraged my sisters/sorors! There are plenty of good men out there! I think with the divorce rate as high as it is maybe it is time for BOTH men and women to revaluate how they take commitment. Men be true to what you do. Women if you are not getting what you want move on.

Sphinxpoet

No doubt.

There are some chicks that make men want to run away. That was my point initially, that there are parties on both sides who are at fault.

To me, here is the bottom line: People are SO worried about others that they forget to concentrate on themselves. That is why some folks are a mess today. When women worry so much about why this man is wrong and that man is wrong, they are neglecting to focus on what might be wrong with THEM.

As for me, I am still trying to get to know myself. I think I would be doing a man a disservice by trying to get him to committ to me before I can even committ to myself, feel me?

Good point...I think that marraige is simply an EXPRESSion of committment.

Committment itself is more of an acknowledged bond, and a willingness to sacrifice yourself for aother person.

Being a "husband" or "wife" is nothing more than a label. Being a "committed partner" in a relationship is something that doesn't necessarily require marriage.

Well said, Sphinxpoet, Librasoul and Delp. Well said! I like your concepts Libra. Get to know yourself. And there are good people out there. Sometimes, I think our sistahs our guilty of looking in the wrong places.And yes, being a spouse is nothing but a label, albeit a srious legal one. What I mean is, I've heard people imply that they'll change their ways once they get married to the person. Heard about the leapords and his spots?

How and why is marriage and divorce the only benchmarks that we have when measuring commitment? Is that why society puts such an emphisis on getting married? Do sisters really think there is a shortage of men or just there is a shortage of men that can deal with you and your specific issues? Just a question or 2?

Sphinxpoet

Marraige and divorce..we have been socialized to think that we need some sort of ceremony to validate our feelings/committment. I *personally* do not feel it necessary, but that is another thread.

Shortage of men? Being real here: I think there is a shortage of men who meet certain qualifications that women are looking for. Every woman looks for something different in a man, so don't ask me what those qualifications are...I can only tell you what mine are.

Both, Sphinxpoet. Statistically, I know that there are more women than men, especially African American women and men. When I take a mental note of the things that I would like for my significant other to possess, I know that there's a huge shortage. I'll add more later.

That reminds me of a conversation I had a few years ago with my cousin. We were discussing her sister. At the time, her sister had been married ONCE, divorced AND married AGAIN.

Being the person that I am, I said "dayuuuummmmm, she's been married and divorced and married again and I haven't been married ONCE." LMAO. Her sister (also single) said, "well, you could be married too if you want to be married to ANY and EVERYTHING out there."

(If that's what it takes...nawwwww I'll pass.)


:o

Libra, this makes me think of Jazzyfatnastees track 4. "Don't need no house, no picket fence, to show the world that we connect. Don't need no church, no diamond ring, to show the world... unlasting thing (i forget, lol)" I use this to say, marriage is not the end all be all of commitment. I want someone who is committed to me and my well being and growth: physically, mentally, and emotionally. I don't need marriage to prove to me a commitment, that's just a small piece of it. When I think of commitment, I also think of willingness. You are willing to work thru all the BS for the betterment of BOTH parties involved, to make each person and the relationship stronger. Why is it so easy to commit and work hard for an employer but not for a mate? It should be just the opposite. Commitment is important, ESPECIALLY physically. I am sharing the most intimate part of myself with you... and you are sharing yours with whoever? Times have changed, and that's too dangerous. Commitment means supporting each other and being each other's cheerleader!! Marriage is not commitment... there are a ton of married folk who are not committed to each other. Commitment to me is, I am here for you, down for whatever, ALWAYS. Ring or no ring, marriage or no marriage.

I believe that there is a shortage of men who can tell the truth and be monogamous. Not that they are all womanizers, just that they are weak when it comes to turning down the pannies. Men view things differently from us, I think. Didn't you hear what Jay-Z said? LOL! But seriously, I do think that it will be hard to find a man who will be able to handle me, specifically. I am not easy to take. I am loud, I'm smart, I'm not takin' your isht, I have motivation and drive, I look good, I have a lot of friends, I'm very emotional and cry a lot, I will cuss you out in a minute, my family is ghetto, I suffer from depression, I've been told I'm intimidating, and I don't trust men as far as I can lift them in the air. So yeah, I got issues, but like my fuchababyfavah, Musiq, said, "Hey, I got issues, you got issues, we all got issues."

It's time to eat, so I gotta go. :)

Loud and smart? For real?!!!! Nah!!!!!!!!!

Alright, just kidding. On the real, you are hardly different than the average black woman today.

I agree that commitment is more than marriage, and if you don't have that FIRST then that marriage is doomed. I am lucky and happy to say that I have been in a committed relationship for two years with someone I was friends with for five years prior to that. A lot of people keep asking us when we are going to get married, but to tell you the truth that is not the first thing on our agenda. With all the time that we have known each other we are still getting to KNOW each other (if that makes any sense):p . Sure I would love to spend the rest of my life with him, but if I am going to take that step I need to be 200% sure!

I have also gone through the discouraged phase of my life, and the ladies who are still there, are for good reason. While there may be some good men out there (i.e. well mannered, good job, educated, etc.), some of them are still missing that component to make a relationship work. And I know a lot of women who will stay in a relationship based on that basic criteria, and just accept all the other bull$#@& that may come along as well.

I think Ashanti said it best in "Foolish"......"All the things that we accept, be the things that we regret ".

I'm not scared of committment. I just haven't found a decent woman yet. It's kinda hard to believe in a city the size of Houston but it seems like women my age are into game playing and being playettes themselves. I'm 28, have a good job and go to church pretty regularly. One woman I thought would work out got pregnant by some fool, the second thought she had it made dating some 19 year old just entering college and the third one wants her to throw away everything she believes in and do as he says. I thought she would have dropped him for that but she's thinking about it so oh well, time to move on.

Tell em Koss! Tell 'em!

Sorry Koss and TLAW, 2 men out of how many? are not enough to convince me...

I'm not even looking to be convinced. I have faith that good men exist, because I know God wouldn't do me like that. We all have a different reality. What did you say in one of your posts, TLAW, you've already done your childish stuff? Koss, I guess the same applies to you? However, we are up against 'men' who are STILL being childish boys. The trick of it is reading thru the game. THAT is the thing right there. See, you could be just as genuine as you please with these women. If any of them have had experiences even similar to mine, they will still think it's game. And I've had male friends tell me, well, just give it time. Well, I did that last time, and what? I am afraid of having the wool pulled over my eyes. That's what frightens me. Trust issues.. trust issues. So for that reason, until that issue is removed from me, I don't want to be convinced about what men are out there or whatever, because I'm just not ready for him, yet.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. It's a two way street. At least in Houston it seems like the women are as bad as the guys and the good women don't trust the good guys and vice versa or they make obvious bad choices. Like thos one woman I know. She has known this guy for 10 years and she's pissed off at all these things he does yet instead of finding someone that fits more of what she's looking for, she decides to give him another chance and she's praying and meditating that he'll chance. Man, this cat hasn't changed in 10 years!!! What makes you think he'll change this time? You're wasting your time.

First off...I didn't mean that I wasn't convinced that there are not good men. I meant that the fact that the two of you are good men does not sway me toward commitment, which is what this thread is about. Sorry about the miscommunication.

As far as your experiences go..does this mean that the 4 women (Nina Simone) you know have clouded your judgment? Have you globalized their actions to include the entire populice of women? Hmmm...this whole globalizing thing has given me deja vu...;)

If you check my very first post, I said that women are just as guilty as men, and that I am tired of women always trying to blame the guys. So I am not sure what point you are trying to prove with me...