I feel what you're saying 411.....

But it brings up yet another interesting point. Like you pointed out in your last post, grades normally do drop when someone is peldging. However, shouldn't the introduction on MIP have changed all of that? I mean, we call folks coming in now paper or skaters if they go through strict MIP and no underground process. Yet the "skaters" have GPA's that don't waiver, but the "real" bruhs/sorors GPA's have hit the basement. I can attest to this because my grades dropped so much that I had to leave line to keep my scholarship. And where I went to school wasn't, and ain't , cheap. And then I had to wait 5 years before I actually got to the opportunity to cross in a grad chapter, which was hard as hell, but it didn't cause my work performance to slip. Because these men were experienced and knew how to run a process. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that if a 3.8 student is all of a sudden getting a 2.6, then something is wrong.

If scholarship is what every org in the NPHC esteems, then why do we, as members, long for a process that will cause one's grades to drop?? That is a paradox in and of itself. So there are pros and cons to MIP and old school.

My suggestion is this: re-implement the pledge clubs. Make people stay in those clubs for a semester and PROVE their scholarship, community service, desire for brotherhood/sisterhood, etc. Get rid of the ridiculous errands and nightly sets. Make the pledge club do fund-raisers. Make them tutor students. Make them contribute time to charities. Make them meet with the bruhs/sorors on a regular, but not nightly, basis. Make them spend a WHOLE lot of time TOGETHER. I say allow them to do things such as dress alike, carry bricks....they can do all that ON THE WAY TO CLASS with their STUDYING DONE. Don';t get me wrong....they need to feel some heat...it's a motivator. But make the things these folks will do in the organization part of their process. So when they get in, they already knew how to set-up a fundraiser. They are already used to contributing to the frat's community service. They are used to fraternizing with the bruhs, though only to a VERY limited extent. So they are prepared if/when they get in.

Now that isn't the complete and total answer, and some folks may be doing some of that. But I think it should be part of the answer. Don't sacrifice one of the ideals in order to teach another. We should teach them, and allow them, to exercise each of the principles prior to their crossing. You don;t learn the ideals of the org after you cross. You learn them before hand, live them, and foster them in the process so that they are refined for service once you're in, if you are so fortunate enough to cross.

It is said that if you can do something for 21 days, then it becomes habit. Think of what 4 months will do.

ROOOOOOOOOO

Grades...
 

Hell, the semester I PLEDGED, resulted in my highest GPA ever! That's because my process was so structured and demanding, that I had no choice but to exercise time management and discipline! There was no room for procrastination or half-steppin! If the paper was due in 4 weeks, I wouldn't wait to do it-- I did is ASAP to get it out of the way! My LSs and I had copies of each other's syllabi so that we KNEW who had to do what and when. We'd encourage each other to get it done, so that we wouldn't be distracted or mentally preoccupied when we were doing DST stuff. Also, my Bigs checked up on our classroom attendance by requiring us to get our prof's signatures EVERYDAY! There was NO class-skipping for us--that was UNACCEPTABLE! I had my best attendance that sememster, too! I spent more time studying (in our special "study room") than I'd ever done before because, as any Delta knows, the "academic" aspect of DST's process is like taking a grad course! Before I made line (and the sememster after I'd crossed), I'd chill between classes, take mid-day naps, play on the computer, etc. :cool: Then, by mid-terms and finals, I'd be running around like a chicken with my head cut off, trying to complete papers and study for exams. If you're undergoing a GOOD PLEDGESHIP, you will be too disciplined and focused for that kind of behavior. So, pledging for me meant being on top of my game and handling all my academic business ASAP. That's what enabled me to do so well academically. Yes, I was barely awake in class from pulling all-nighters, but all my work got done. So, by the time things started heating up, my most time-consuming class projects were already finished! Too bad I wasn't still pledging during my last 3 quarters--I would have graduated magna cum laude! :D

And I'm Out!

Lone Dog,

Where'd you do your undergrad?

And I'm Out!

Hampton U

best decision I ever made was to go there....of course the scholarship they gave helped me in my decision!

ROOO

There is something to be said about academic requirements and membership. I remeber the fall after I graduated, the queen at homecoming and her court (sophomore and junior attendants) were all sorors, each one with a gpa that was 3.4 or better, and they didn't have easy majors (two accounting and one pharmacy), that was one of the better memories of college life. I would remind people that yes, they are all sorors, but what about their GPA's!

I have two daughters and it breaks my heart, actually brings tears to my eyes, that they won't be calling me Big Sister :( that is assuming they seek and are accepted into membership

Re: Re: Interesting Perspective
 

Coming from a long line of Deltas (3 generations and 16 famliy members as sorors) I've come to realize that "hearing" about "cases" doesn't mean MIP made hazing more prevalent, it's because news travels quickly and more broadly than it did in the 50s, 60s, 70s etc. and also we are in a more litigous society - people didn't sue for everything once upon a time.

Agree with Crucial
 

I agree with Crucial....... living in the 'information age' has its positives as well as negatives........

I know that's right!! On my yard there are LITERALLY students taking part-time loads just to be greek. Is it really that serious for you to push graduation back? There may be some things that I wish I could change about my MIP, but I can't so I just have to do what needs to be done. Besides, I would rather be the one that went through a MIP and remained active in my org, than PLEDGE and be a t-shirt wearer. But, it's like I said before......YOU MUST GO THROUGH IN ORDER TO GET TO!! :) :o :eek: :D :)

If I may jump in here for just a second. I pledged hard in 2000 and I must say there is mass hate for members that did not truly pledge in the sense of the word. But there are members who pledged but did not get their paper. The Pan never wants to talk about those members. I pledged ALPHA although my my is a Que and my mother is a Delta. We feel that the new MIP is a joke, because hazing still goes on everyday at one chapter or another it's just not patroled.

Just an observation
 

Greetings to the members of this board.
I am not Greek, merely an observer of this forum.
I too agree with the many who advocate PLEDGING. Because there is indeed a difference between Hazing and Pledging. I personally feel that there is nothing wrong with walking in line, while online, living together as one, dressing alike and basically humbling yourself to your organization. All pre-MIP processes(i.e. pledging) were meant to create cohesion amongst the members the line. Bondage and togetherness is a great and special part of any brother or sisterhood. To basically come in an take that away takes away the spirit upon with BGLOs were created.
And like someone said most of the hazing that has made the news has occurred after the banning of pledging.

These are just my opinions.

Wouldn't it be interesting...
 

if someone put together a survey and asked the members their opinion on pledging, issued it to every chapter of every greek-lettered organization, and published the results? I wonder what the results would be. I'm surprised no one here on Greekchat hasn't done it.

Re: Wouldn't it be interesting...
 

You must be reading my mind. After reading everyone's disappointment in the MIP process in this forum and other Greek forums, I would take it a step further. Not just make it a survey, but have chapters throughout the country write a letter to their respective organization leadership body and also the NHPC asking that the MIP be reviewed for changes that incorporates the good characteristics of pledging that builds character and unity. I'm not sure how each organization works, but there must be process in regards to getting members to vote on changes in their constitution and bylaws.

Instead of talking about how we dislike MIP, let's work together to change the process.

Snuggles #7
DST
RVA 12/93

Re: Wouldn't it be interesting...
 

I think if this were done, the results would be skewed. Only ACTIVE members would be polled if surveys were sent to the chapters, no inactive members. Granted if someone wants a voice in their org, then they should be ACTIVE and FINANCIAL, BUT they are still members. I think if a poll of ACTIVE/FINANCIAL members and a poll of ALL INITIATED members would have quite different results. Which would be more accurate???

But...will that accomplish anything...
 

A survey is great; however, the divine nine make up the National Pan Council. Our powers that stood in the early 90's came up with this. I'm sure (well I pray) that our presidents didn't just get together and do this on a whim. Many Sorors believe in pledging...however, a lot of us are moreso afraid of the lawsuits and etc. I'm sure there was plenty of discussion in regards to this before any of our bodies decided to 'sign' on. Because I know in 'AKA' there's still a lot of discussion with sorors voicing their opinions and etc. But until 'we' find something that will 'curb' hazing and the lawsuits. I believe things will stay the same (in other words, this system is not going anywhere any time soon) -- my thoughts.

And I know, people are going to say that you must have supervised sessions....but who has that type of time (except older sorors) and wants to do it these days? I used to be a grad advisor...and that's a lot of work......(a lot of work)!

In addition, I think only the FINANCIALLY active greeks should have a say in the matter. I know that anyone initiated into the greek system is my greek brother/sister. However, they haven't held up to our pledge(s). Why would I care if someone that doesn't come to a meeting, doesn't pay dues, doesn't participate and etc. wants pledging to be above ground? "Financial" membership has its privileges.

Lastly, I think we feel as though hazing has gotten worse over the last few years because we hear about it moreso. We live in an 'information' age. I can just search on the internet and read about several incidents at once. We also live in a litigous society...so people sue the 'deep pockets' all the time. So it looks worse. When I crossed, no matter what happened, it wasn't OK to call national to become XYZ. People didn't sue for every little thing. Right now, people will get their moma's, their moma's friends, the schools and sometimes their attorney's involved if they receive a rejection letter. The bottom line...news travels fast now... Previously, unless something really, really bad happened...I didn't hear about stuff that went on at other schools. Even if chapters were suspended and etc.

All of you make good and valid points, but MIP will never change. There was much weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth with this was first instituted. Over the many objections of the body. However, the political faction of each org and the NPHC, do not react to internal pressure. They are most concerned with the external forces that threaten our orgs from the outside. Those being legal, risk management, collegiate rules and regs, the media, and most of all, big donors.

What many of us do not notice is that now that each of our orgs are 501C corporations, we are bound by U.S tax regulations. As such, the U.S. govt can determine indirectly, how each of our orgs should operate. Therefore, any membership rules have to meet "their" standards. Anything construed as hazing, even as innocuous as dressing alike, will jeopardize that coveted tax exempt status. If you lose that designation, you lose sponsors, partners, and organizations that make donations to tax exempt service orgs.

Right now, on the national level, our fraternal organizations are businesses (beyond internal maintenance). That is their priority. If the brotherhood/sisterhood of those organizations suffer, so be it, as long as the business aspect remains strong. The impact on unity is seen as a viable trade-off to the interests of the "big picture". 10 years from now, their will be no undergraduate initiation, because it is becoming more of an onus andless of a necessity to the greater interests of the orgs themselves.