OK, fine -- tell your "story," but do me two favors...learn how to spell "y'all" and "hear." :p ;)

Ok so let me hear what y'all are going to do with Amy lol ;)

I would still give Amy as fair a chance as any other PNM.

And on a side note, running away to live with a relative and put the child up for adoption isn't as common as it was 50 years ago. I know a woman who was raped and kept the baby...he's now about five or six years old and despite the circumstances, his mother loves him just as much as if he were created from a loving relationship.

James, with this Amy scenario you are implying that those of us who would not accept a pregnant/mom PNM are doing so only based on "morality" issues rather than time committments. I don't care if it's a virgin birth - if she's going to keep the baby, she's going to have priorities other than a sorority.

And your addition about Amy being wealthy - who on earth cares?

My sentiments exactly. She still is not going to have the time to do all the things that new members are generally required (or at least encouraged) to do. Also, if she is raising a child, she will not have a great deal in common with young ladies whose biggest concern is whether or not they have a date to the football game, and what fraternity he is in. That has nothing to do with morality.

I think we should all be glad of that! After all, there wouldn't be room for everyone, now would there?!? (j/k) :D

Well. And well.

I believe the real issue is "tightness of fit". Any primary group judges proscpective new members on a visceral level. There is an automatic impression that this person either fits or doesn't. Especally in circumstances where you don't know cadidates well or at all. Later, the personality issues become more accute.

The more specialized the group, or the stronger the group identity, the more tightness of fit comes into play.

In sorority Rush, with its unavoidably superficial nature, the sisters are going to have to judge the new PNMs based on gut reactions.

I believe thats reasonable. And if that were the reason given that would be hard to argue against. Tightness of fit is a good explanation for lack of minority recruitment, why we might eliminate the less attractive, the pregnant, and the marrid women. ITs an intangible.

What raises the hackles of some people in this thread is the sophistry of the people thatr don't want to accept pregnant women.

The rationalizations range from:

1 She shouldn't WANT to be involved with a sorority if she is pregnant. there must be something wrong with her.
2. She won't have the money for it.
3. She won't have the time.
4. If she got pregnant she is obviously an irresponsible person.
5. There are a whole bunch of things she should be doing other than sorority from others' points of view.

Those arguments are easily countered and honestly look like what they are, an after the fact justification of exclusion.

But because they offered those arguments I presented a scenario that countered them to see whether the women that used those arguments as a reason to exclude would change their minds.

If they are not, then they should just admit, simply, that they just don't want pregnant women in their chapters, its a valid prejudice. And more intellectually honest.

Adressing your questions angelove:
Yes I think many women would exclude Amy based on their ideas of moral issues. Or appearance.

In my amy scenario she easily has the resources that give her the time to spend with her sorority. In fact she could leave the child at home with her parents that could take care of it and supply caretakers. Something that is not uncommon at all both in wealthy and less wealthy famlies.

So here Amy stands, she has the time, the stats, the money, and wonder of wonders, you know all this before she Rushes through various alum groups. Oh and lets make her a legacy also.

So does Amy get a fair shake or not?

When I was in college, I knew an undergrad who was a mother and became an active sister of her sorority. Her mother raised her daughter at home while she was away at college. I had no idea that she was a mother until her family came to visit one weekend. The arrangement seemed to work for her and her mother and her daughter.

I agree with texasgirl's, AOTTsilver's and Munchkin's points about non-traditional students. I also can understand Bama_Alumna's point. There are some chapters at some schools where a mother will not receive a bid. There are also chapters where non-traditional students will play very active roles in their sororities. I think that sororities have evolved and will continue to evolve to reflect the changing times and trends.

My chapter... after MUCH debate extended a bid to a married lady... she was 20... she was active for I think like a semester.. then the next semester we saw less and less of her.. then she pulled the "I'm married I want to go alum" and she did.. we couldn't do, even though in my opinion she didn't deserve the status. Now she's still enrolled in school and she doesn't do ANYTHING for the chapter at all or really even talk to any of us. So you can't tell me that if just being married this sister of mine couldn't handle coming to the required amount of events that someone who has the responsibility of looking after another human being is going to have to time to participate in a sorority.
I mean maybe if she had the type of situation Peaches N Cream was talking about where the grandparents looked after baby during the semester it would be a different situation... and perhaps James' Amy situation would fit that bill if her parents are willing to help her out..(not even money wise... but time wise) so I would definitely consider bidding Amy. but if this women decides to have the baby and pretty much is responsible for everything.. how can you justify spending money on dues instead of diapers ?

A-friggin' men.

~ Mel.

I think that yes, Amy would get a fair shake in that she would be allowed to go through recruitment, meet sisters in all the houses, and all that. As far as getting a bid, I doubt it. Like Bama said, we can't take everybody. People are going to get cut. Therefore, somebody is going to be "discriminated against." Otherwise, everybody would get a bid from every house. It doesn't work that way. I also agree that at more liberal schools than U of AL, Amy might have a better shot.

James-In fact she could leave the child at home with her parents that could take care of it and supply caretakers. Something that is not uncommon at all both in wealthy and less wealthy famlies.

Why would you think after raising their OWN children, Granny and Pappy want to become built in baby sitters?

I am looking forward to the day when I can love and play with my grandkids...on MY schedule or in an emergency. A pledge meeting is NOT an emergency nor is pomping or going on a retreat. Heck, after raising kids I'm the one that needs a retreat. Make that a resort with a spa!:p



BIG DITTO angelove and Bama_Alumna' posts!

When is the short bus coming to pick up Bama_Alum and greencat? :confused:

re: Dionysus' "short bus" comment:

AARGH! :mad:

Just like HederaNaturale with her "think before you type" comment - just because someone has a different opinion than you does not mean that he or she is not thinking or should be "riding the short bus." Negative comments about the intelligence of those with whom you disagree hamper the spirit of debate inherent in this thread and the entire internet message board world. If the only response to an argument that you can formulate is to call someone stupid, that really doesn't help your side of the debate, nor will it persuade anyone to change his or her mind.

It is funny that you should pose this question because I was thinking about this exact same thing yesterday. I say if she is someone you would definitely want in your sisterhood if she were not pregnant, then let her pledge (after she has the baby). I only say after she has the baby for safety reason. With all of these lawsuits going around, you do not want your organization to be held liable if something goes wrong during her pregnancy. Also, the concessions you would have to make due to her pregnancy would be unfair to others who were on line with her.

I mean let's flip this for a minute. What if you and your line sisters had just crossed, and one of your line sisters found out she was pregnant? What would you or could you do then? Or, what if you found out you were pregnant while you are a member of your undergraduate chapter? How would you want your sisters to handle your situation? I think putting yourself in the other person's shoes will help you to come up with a balanced and compassionate answer.

I agree with Angelove. Dionysus, I would expect you of all people to appreciate that it doesn't feel good to be belittled. I am surprised at you.