Interesting Perspective
 

Lone Dog,
I couldn't agree more with your statement, especially your closing remarks. Let me step out on limb with you, amidst fear of being cyber-stoned, to state that I think things are a whole lot easier now. When one considers what people two generations went thru, it is easy to see that we do have it quite easy.
As far as I am concerned, joining an elite organization demands special commitment. If and when I do decide to attempt pledging (oops, I mean undergo MIP), I say bring it on. Contrary to popular opinion, would-be newer members all don't want to "pay" our way in. I have met quite a few greeks, and for those made right, I am yet to find one to refer to their pledge process negatively. So, there just might be some good in a controlled, semi-above ground pledge process, where the men charged with making new men know the difference between pledging and murder. Still, I think prospects should not be held to blame for how they enter. It is only as easy as the organization lets it to be. As for me, if I wanted it easy, I'd join a dinner club.

Bruh, I disagree with you vehemently on this point. Omega is not a business!!!!! It is first and foremost a BROTHERHOOD!!! Now, this brotherhood has BUSINESS that it needs to handle, but I'm not recruiting members to sit on a board, handle finances, or be project leaders. I'm recruiting BROTHERS who can do those things, but realize that their first duty is to be a brother. If you choose a person who has true Omega qualities, you will find one that can handle business.

Times and people have changed throughout the 90 year history of Black Greekdom, but its only been the last 10 years that the entry process has changed (for the worse ) so that argument that we need to do something to attract this generation doesn't hold water. Membership is screwed up because we have become schizophrenic in our effort to please a hostile master instead of being true to ourselves. Because we have focused so much on what outsiders think of us (the press, lawyers, haters, white folks) we have compromised our way of life to satisfy others. When you do that, you lose your focus. Now we are businesses that look at memebership as revenue, not brothers or sisters. We microwave members and then expect them to appreciate something for a lifetime and worse, expect them to be treated as equals by those who went through Blood, Sweat, and Tears. The further God has brought you, the more you shout in Church. There is an inverse relationship between business and brotherhood. The more you have of one, the less you will have of the other. But that is the conundrum

I see your point Doggy....

but if BLGO's ain't business, why are they incorporated? If it isn't a business, why do they have lawyers to protect their interest and have copyright laws and things of that nature? Now the concept of Omega, the ideals of Omega ARE NOT a business, nor is it for sale. I agree with you there. Omega Psi Phi is a brotherhood, unfortunately, all the members don't practice it...and it's because of them that Omega, and the other BGLOs, have turned into a business. Just ask that white lawyer in MD who makes a living suing greeks...it's big business to him.

I did not mean to imply that Omega was founded to be a business. I am saying that it has turned into one because of the laws on hazing and the lawsuits and new procedures put in place to try and "remedy" the situation.

Regardless of the circumstances that got us to where we are, in order for the survival of our organizations, we have to attract new members, and re-activate the current members. We are working with a new set of rules, therefore, we must incorporate those rules into the recruitment of propspectives. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying that's the way it is. And until we put the action in motion to change it and are successful, that is the hand we're dealt. We can fold, or play through. I'm staying in the game.

ROOOO

Re: Interesting Perspective
 

But, that's JUST the problem--"those made right" aren't just doing MIP, but more the middle ground between it and old skool. MIP alone just can't/doesn't/won't cut it.

And, I'd have to say that, in MY opinion, things didn't start getting outta hand and uncontrolled (i.e. ultra-violent and almost deadly) until MIP was implemented! Look at the most major cases we're hearing about-- they're all very recent, wouldn't you agree? When lines go underground in an effort to maintain a traditional pledgeship, more s**t happens. And, because MIP is more than just an organizational mandate (i.e. anti-hazing is also university AND state law), our chapters are always under a microscope by SOMEBODY, making underground lines even less successful. Sure--the "candidates" may have sealed lips, but the GDIs, faculty, staff, dorm RA's, etc. are the ones who are saying: "Ya know Jerome has been lookin' kinda rough lately and his grades are slippin'. He must be pledging a frat and being hazed! I'm gonna report this!"

And, another sad reality is that a lot of orgs are bringing in some WEAK individuals--people who just want to belong, to be popular, and who have NO interest whatsoever in carrying out the mission and upholding the values of their organizations! When these kinds of people successfully undergo an underground pledgeship, their only focus becomes this: to make sure the next line goes through the same s**t they did. They don't care about the rationales and growth lessons behind the things they went through, because their focus was never really to have that org in their hearts; it was merely to have some letters on their chests! I know people who suffer from such chronic low self-esteem, that they are willing to endure ANYTHING AT ALL--from the most extreme physical to the most life-altering mental abuse--just to be able to say, "Now I'm somebody!" Imagine such a person being responsible for the intake of new members. Do you think they'd give a rat's a$$ about the severity or risks of their hazing actions? NO! They only care about that newfound "power" they have to put someone else through what they went through. Because of their low self-esteem (which never goes away, even with the letters), they need that "power" like a crackhead needs the rock. Those are the folks who go too far, and have ruined it for those of us who know how things should be done.

There has to be a PURPOSE behind the things that are done within either process--both pledging and MIP. Unfortunately, for some chapters, the secrecy of the underground process has resulted in beat-down sessions. But, what people don't know is that now HAZING (by definition of the orgs, the universities, and the states) encompasses SO MUCH MORE than physical activities! In Laymen's terms, HAZING is, quite simply: to require that a person do anything they MIGHT not be comfortable with as a means of joining an organization. Isn't it funny how this definition doesn't apply to sports, the military, marching bands, etc.? Hazing is saying: "Each of you need to wear the identical all-black outfit and shoes." What physical or mental abuse is involved in that? Yet, chapters whose "candidates" agree to do this are, by definition, having an underground line. If they did this publicly, eyebrows would be raised, conclusions drawn, and chapters investigated.

These days, because of MIP, chapters are getting reprimanded or suspended for the littlest, most trivial things (like not putting up signs about the rush/smoker) and most often, none of it qualifies as physical or mental abuse of any sort! Chapters are being told to "add" people to a line simply because someone went crying to nationals because they didn't make it. Many people in the latter category weren't even looked at by the members, much less touched, and yet they are allowed to jump on the wagon because nationals doesn't want the drama!

LONE DOG-- I agree with you about the lawyer thing. I know I'll catch hell for saying this, but, like it or not, most of our orgs have adopted MIP and anti-hazing policies for FINANCIAL PROTECTION ONLY--not because they actually give a damn about what happens to pledgees. They've adopted them in order to be protected in the COURT OF LAW and to avoid losing thousands of dollars from law suits defeats. If these orgs REALLY cared about the physical and mental HEALTH of the prospectives who pursue membership, "hazers" would automatically be in jail rather than merely suspended. Wouldn't you agree?

And I'm Out.

411,
Looking from the outside in, I have to say you hit the nail smack on the head. As for the definition of hazing, I have oft wondered at the same double standard you pointed out: if we indeed were to take hazing to it's politically correct level, those lawyers making careers out of suing frats and sororities could make a whole lot more loot focusing on the military. Now, that is where you'd find hazing at hit's finest (or worst).

I was slow to mention that the fatalities that we hear of seem to be very recent because I had only recently started to pay attention to black greek life these last couple of years. I do think it quite interesting that they do seem to coincide with the inception of MIP. Though far from an expert on intake history, I daresay MIP might have unwittingly helped birth the monster it was supposed to abort.

Since I have not been fortunate enough to have seen what you guys have, I'll decline the urge to say what I really believe MIP has done on a whole. I do say this: some things are cultural, and some things are unique to us as black people. I know things change with time, but some of the very things we now mock and do fight to do away with helped us to bond and survive when the chips were stacked against us. Lest we forget, we still deal with the remnants of those chips today. If we want to do away completely with a process, it better be for a very good reason.

TLAW

To my knowledge, there has been only one fatality since intake as a direct result of hazing. That being the Kappa pledge at SEMO in 94 0r 95. There were two deaths in the 80's related to pledging and both of those involved people with defective hearts. So in effect, there has been one death (one too many) as the direct result of physical abuse. Contrast that to 15 football players dying of heatsroke in just two years (most in high school or college). Of course, there are too many hazing related injuries. Way too many, especially from stupidity and callousness.

Thanks for bing our 1000th poster.

Interesting point you ended your comment with 411..... I wonder why that doesn't happen. Maybe because if they did jail their own member, they would admit to some wrong doing on their part. Maybe because they desire to protect their brother/sister in all things. Or maybe because it could be seen as a form of double jeopardy after the member had been prosecuted by the plaintiff. Not sure.....

But I do agree that orgs are attracting a certain kind of people, but I think it is primarily our own fault:
1) Think about it, every org in the NPHC has pretty much the same requirements: 2.5 GPA, full-time student, community-service oriented, etc. etc. So then it would seem that whoever meets these requirements, should be accepted. All of us know that isn't true, there are dozens of intangibles that SHOULD go into deciding if a member is right for their organization. But with such vague requirements, if there is someone who meets them, and they aren't accepted, they feel they have a reason to run to nationals and complain. And based on the requirements we put out, maybe their complaint is warranted.
2) The image we portray in public. I have had dudes come up to me and ask me about my frat. I have no problem with that...none at all. But when dudes approach with sh*t like, "I'm bald headed and muscular, and my girl is a Delta. I was born to be a Que!" WHAT??? Are you serious? Or something like, "I can't even imagine all the girls I'll have once I put those letters on!" " Man, those gold boots and cammies are tight! Man, Ques are just wild and crazy! I gotta be down." I get sick to my stomach just thinking about it. But then I stop to think, what image are we putting out there?? then I can see why these dudes think it's ok.
3)For some reason, a lot of organizations don't recruit. They don't pull people to the side and ask them to attend a smoker or gauge their interest in their org. A lot of folks feel like that is improper. "I ain't chasing nobody to be in my org!" Bruh, it ain't about that, it's about finding worthy men, and revealing the light of Omega to the deserving. Even our FOUNDERS DID THAT! And now you're too good to??? Spare me. So, as a result of not picking the people we want, the people who want us, choose us. And we are left picking from a crowd of folks who may not necessarily have been the ones we wanted for our org. And then weakness seeps into the fraternity/sorority. I am ALWAYS looking for good men to be a part......you can never have too many good men. I don't care what frat you are in. But WE should decide who gets an invite, not prospectives. Are ya'll feeling me here?
4) Prospectives get the idea that if they attend one organizations smoker, that they shouldn't attend others for fear of giving the wrong message to the org they're interested in. And that, too, comes from the members. There is no question that there is divisiveness in the NPHC. Some of it is in good fun, some of it ain't. But back in the day, pledge clubs would do things together. It wasn't out of the questions for one to see Lamps working with Ivies, or any of the other orgs. That fostered a spirit of unity, that carried over into the period after the pledge crossed the sands. NPHC in itself was formed to foster unity... it was formed because two frats (Que and Sigma) took the first step to address the need that all the orgs in existance at the time recognized. But you eliminate pledge clubs, and you send everything underground, and then there is no unity to be exercised. All of NPHC strives for primarily the same goal, the advancement of our people and the community in general.
5) One more thing....people, please think about the org you're joining before you join. (See above...go to ALL the interest meetings or smokers....do your research). I mean, if the organization is founded on Christian principles, then how are you going to be an atheist and join? If the hymn incorporates Jesus in it, then how are you going to be Muslim and join? That's not to say you can't join, because the orgs, as far as I know, accept all religious backgrounds. But the whole point here is to THINK about what you're joining... it ain't about hoppin and calls.

You can't answer one of the points above without addressing all of them. It's a task that has to, needs to, and better be accomplished...or things will only go downhill.

ROOOO

One more thing from the411...

We need to keep in mind that it wasn't hazing within our NPHC orgs that lead to this mess. It was alcohol-related hazing within the traditionally white GLOs that lead to these strict anti-hazing movements and laws. Nothing we did was considered bad/wrong until those alcohol-related incidents started getting national media attention.

Do any of you know of a BGLO that hazes pledgees by poisoning them with alcohol?
:confused:

And I'm Out!

PS: Obviously, Doggy, LoneDog, and I need to write a book on this! We've already posted a few chapters here! ;)

The logic here is quite simple: choose, or relegate yourself to being chosen. When you decide to do the latter, weakness does seep in!

Choose or be chosen?
 

Folks, I have been reading and agreeing with much of what the 'old skool' is saying, having lived it and all. :D

However, I do want to say that I have been guilty of the 'we don't recruit' frame of mind. I think that it has worked in the past but in these 'interesting times' we need to look at other approaches.

Unfortunately, many educated, hard-working brothers and sisters are scared-off by the specter of hazing and many of the negativities we portray. It is incumbent on us as members to strive to portray the positive in all we do but specifically to encourage those who we would deem worthy to look more closely at our organizations. We should invite them to activities and encourage them to do their research, even invite them to our informational meetings.

I don't think we need to recruit off the street but if we see someone for whom we would be proud to 'write their letter' or 'sponsor them', and all the heavy responsibility it entails, then we should step out on faith and encourage them.

However, we do need to be mindful that they must seek the Light as they are. Meaning that it is their task to be accepted, NOT OURS. I have seen cases where the sponsor has taken rejection of 'their' candidate personally and caused needless trouble as a result. We can only provide them the tools and encouragement, the rest is up to them.

It is sad to say that just as in any other circumstance, people fail to practice moderation and either practice the totally 'hands off' approach or take too much responsibility for 'their' candidate.

Keep up the great dialogue, peeps.

LONE DOG

You make some good points Bruh and your observations are pretty much in line with this post-apocalyptic (post -intake) world. All of the negatives that you note are either because of or has been excaserbated by the lack of a real, public pledge process

1. Membership is not guaranteed to anyone. That is why you had to pledge. People think that because that is what intake rules have created. Since you don't have to pledge, all you need is the minimum requirements to be accepted.


2. Image: Bruh, its been the same since the inception of the Frat. If you read the Dreer, the Bruhs have always drawn men to it for reasons other than the Cardinal Principles and more for its superficial powers. That is why "selection" is important. It doesn't matter who is drawn to you, it matters whom you select and how they are then molded into the "proper" fraternal culture. I'm 100% against that whole "wrestling culture" but that is an outgrowth of intake as well

3. Recruitment: Trick question. Yes, the founders identified their first induction class, but that is what you do with a start-up. You recruit by being what other men seek. By being a campus and community leader, by being the epitome of Manhood and Scholarship. That's what I saw and that is what I put out as a member. Its ok to invite people to interest meetings or suggest they give the frat some consideration, but Omegas are special people. The 8 vs. the 80. Thats why Omega seeks no man.

4. Hell no. If you tried someone else, step off. Omegas are unique. If you've considered someone else, there is no need to step to us. We are no one's second choice or something that needs to be re-considered. The thing that seperates all Omega men is that that is all they ever wanted to be. No one else is even a thought. That is where enthusiasm is born. If you just want to be greek, sample them all. But if you want to be a Bruh, there are no options. Maybe in this day of watered down intake, all frats become indistinguishable and maybe candidates need to research everybody, but I'm going to stay old school on this point. Omega shines in everything. If that isn't good enough, you don't need to come back after checking out everyone else.

5. If you can't be part of an interest club, then a pledge club, what do you have to go on but the superficial. When I was an undergrad, orgs did not recruit by winning the most step shows or having the bomb party strolls, or most unique call, or signing all the time, or having the most creative probate. You simply got to know the people who made up the org and become a part of the org culture while trying to become a member. Damn a stroll or a hand-sign or a call, but thats all freshman get to see.

As far as your conclusion, we are already at the bottom. I lived Black Greekdom in much better days than this.

Re: Choose or be chosen?
 

Agreed, but do you want someone who did not seek your org to get it easier than you did? Will they be as enthusiastic?, Hardworking? As omni-present as DST is, if someone wanted to be down, they woould. If they know you and you are a good representative of Delta, then why would they assume that they would be hazed or that there was something terrible to be afraid of? If I just wanted to belong to a public service org that had no membership requirements, I would be in Concerned Black Men. However, I wanted to be a Que, which is a unique Brotherhood and which had a different expectation of how to become a member. If the demands of becoming a member are too much for you, we don't want you. Our way of life doesn't fit everyone. That is what makes us special. If not, we will become indistinguishable as the Divine Nine is rapidly becoming. The orgs are watered down as they are.

Re: Re: Choose or be chosen?
 

Au contraire, mon frere! I agree that the process today is wwwaaayyy to abbreviated and undemanding. However, one soror cannot 'make' a Delta (by vote nor process) so the person has to feel comfortable with the chapter through which she wishes to seek Delta, not just her 'sponsor'.

As I have indicated in other discussions, I would like to see more stringent membership requirements, not necessarily in terms of GPA but in those subjective areas like good character, sisterliness and high ideals. If you are selecting good people who are willing to work, they will gladly be 'pledged' to show their committment. Those who are not willing to pledge are overwhelmingly not willing to work.

The specter of hazing looms because noone wants to go to jail. If someone allow themselves to be subjected to what today is considered hazing, they can be barred for life from Delta. If the process was more like pledging, then they would know exactly what to expect and adapt themselves to that expectation or seek scholarship, sisterhood or service elsewhere.

Re: Re: Re: Choose or be chosen?
 

Essentially, I agree with everything that you say.

Re: Re: Re: Choose or be chosen?
 

Gotta disagree with ya, Soror! I'm a FIRM believer in a 3.0 GPA for DST membership (I am ONLY talking about DST's standards, so other greeks, don't get offended). I don't buy into that "a C at X school is like an A at Y school." A scholar is a scholar is a scholar, and good SCHOLARSHIP should be the goal of ALL college students, and ESPECIALLY of the greeks! How can we call our orgs "elite" when we aren't accepting ONLY the above-average students. Academics is what comes FIRST when we're dealing with collegiates, right? We don't (shouldn't) go to college to pledge, we should go with the goal of graduating!

I know girls who have to STRUGGLE for the 2.5 :eek: . In My opinion, pledging with a boarderline GPA like that should be the LAST thing on their agenda! So many people's GPAs fall when they're on-line, and I don't think a 2.5 can afford to slip! Yet, we have greeks walking around (all big and proud) on academic probabtion or who aren't in school and never even got a degree! Is this the example we want to set when we talk about the importance of SCHOLARSHIP--barely making a 2.5 just to pledge?!?!?

Our Founders strived for and achieved academic excellence during a time when blacks and women were catching HELL all over the nation. I know things aren't all hunky-dory in our world today, but compared to what our Founders and older sorors had to endure when they were in school, sistas these days have it way too easy to be STRUGGLING for a 2.5! The focus should be on pulling up that GPA for the pursuit of academic excellence, not for gettin' some letters!

Same thing with community service. Girls buss' their a$$es doing JUST ENOUGH community service to get an acceptable letter to accompany their DST application packet! I know people who've never even DONE the service-- they just got the hook-up from someone they know who works for Red Cross or Habitat or what have you. These are the same kinds of people who, after they cross, are only concerned with partying, road-trippin,' and the up-coming step-show! None of them continue to do community service for and by themselves--and IF they do anything after they cross, it's only in the name of DST. If the chapter weren't going to work on a Habitat house on Saturday, they wouldn't be going! Why should she continue doing individual, self-motivated service? Once she got that community service letter, she was done!

I agree that we need to raise the bar. However, we can't raise some and not others--we NEED to make it more competitive across the board! I am much more interested in the young lady who's OBVIOUSLY committed to service, is an active leader, AND is able to maintain a 3.0+ in the midst of her extra-curriculars. Delta Women have always been multi-taskers who are successful in all they do. Why is it that we're now accepting women who do 1 or 2 things well, but SICK in other areas? Why do we make excuses for these people? That is SO NOT what the real world is all about! Do you think HARVARD is gonna let a student with low grades and a low LSAT into its law school just because of the kind of undergad school he/she went to? HELL NO! My cousin graduated from Yale with a 3.6 and an exceptional LSAT score (she got into Columbia, Duke, Georgetown, NC, and UPenn, just to name a few), but Harvard still turned her down!

If you have a standard, you need to stick to it! This is how you do away with LARGE LINES and how you maintain your good reputation and that proud feeling amongst your members. Now, it seems more weight is put on the amount of sh*t people endure during pledging, rather than the honor of even making line! That's because the standard is so low, that meeting the minimum criteria isn't anything to boast about anymore--it's about how much a$$ you kissed, how many calls you made, how much sleep you didn't get, and how much wood you took. Chapters now are glorified more for being suspended for hazing, not for having the highest GPA on campus. We got it ALL backwards!

I'd love to see Delta go back to a 3.0

And I'm Out!