DELTABRAT-

You had some very quality points and I think it is important for you to stand up for what you believe in. But please DO NOT GENERALIZE!

You said" I hear whithe people say all the time that "I didn't beat your ancesors" or" I didn't lynch you uncles and aunts, why are you mad at me." Because I am still living with that reality EVERYDAY of my Black life, that's why and so are you. Yeah although you didn't have the whip in hand, personally, one of your ancestors did. Point blank. "

That is absolutely, 100%, completely INCORRECT! You cannot speak for ALL white people! Not a single member of my family was in this country until WWII. And you know why they came here? Because they were being PERSECUTED AND MURDERED by the Nazis. They came here seeking a better life where they would be free to live their lives. NEVER ONCE did they own slaves or "hold a whip in their hands". NEVER ONCE. You CANNOT say that white heritage is founded in slavery in this country. SOME people's heritage is from slavery times, but remember the immigration boom of the early 1900's? That is when a large amount of white people entered this nation. their heritage is not that of colonial America. I had many members of my family MURDERED by cold, hateful killers. But am I mad at all Germans? Do I consider them all to be evil, hateful people? ABSOLUTELY NOT. I consider only the actual participants to be held responsible. And you know what is ironic? I AM GERMAN ALSO. They persecuted THEIR OWN PEOPLE.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that you are a black supporter and hold strongly to your beliefs. I am not trying to change you or your views, just trying to educate you on the facts. By making blanket statements that DO NOT hold true for all Americans, you are not making things any better.

POINT BLANK.

You forgot the chinese people were brought to America as slaves as well

amen, Cash, amen! Tired of EVERYONE generalizing. I am neither white or black, the love of my life and is beautiful black man. And he is SO sick of his black female friends giving him crap for dating me. Someone said something about how he dated a white woman and black girls got mad -- the same black girls that wouldn't go out with him in the first place. "What was I supposed to do? Wait around." Very good point. My man asked me out because he thought I was beautiful, he thought I was well spoken, intelligent, and he loved my confidence. He has dated his share of black women, white women, etc. As for him being afraid of a "strong" black woman: His black ex girlfriend is an insecure, possessive, jealous, dramamtic, overly dependent whore (she slept with a friend of his) -- he appreciates me because I am confident, strong, and independent and he know I wouldn't let him walk all over me, his friends and family respect me -- unlike the way her personality screamed she probably would (even though he is too much of a gentleman to do so). So drop that arguement too.

That's my $0.02 cents

my white girlfriend may not look like my mother, but she's selfless, kind, nurturing, intelligent and beautiful. JUST like my mother.

Cash78mere,

I must agree with Deltabrat in this. Eventhough your heritage is not colonial white America, you are still seen as white in today's society. When people see you, they see White, and when they see me, they Black. Guess what, in most cases, there would be two different reactions towards you and I today. Guess who would get the positive treatment? Let's keep it real!

Haitinupe,
Can you explain what you mean by selfless?

I agree that people would see two different things. I never said they wouldn't. But that does not mean that they will look at me and think instantly of slavery. If they do, I feel bad for them. People do not need to be closed minded. People should look at me and think of the positive and negative things that I ALONE have done. To even judge me on my family or friends is wrong. To think of me as white and to think of me as a slave holder are 2 completely different things.

People may see me as white, but if the only thing that comes to mind is being a slave master or a repressor of a people, they really need to expand their thinking. It would not be fair for me to look at all black people and think solely of gangs (just an example) or any other negative thing that I could think of.

We need to look at people as INDIVIDUALS. I do not like all white people, I don't like all black people and I don't like all Asian people. But to say that I must think negatively on an entire race because of something that happened 200 years ago is ludicrous. I judge people on their OWN INDIVIDUAL MERITS. And I would hope to assume that most people do also.

Cash78mere,
You are describing a romper room reality, which is not what we live in. So you now can JUDGE people? What if you don't know any of their individual merits? What do you do then? We all know that slavery happened 200 years ago, but the affects of slavery and the mentality is still alive and well. That is why Blacks are still talking about it, because racism is still here.

Romper Room? puh-lease! the only people who act as if they're in romper room are the one's that say things about perfect strangers they don't know. i don't know about anyone else, but i graduated pre-school and now live in the real world where i live my life according to a high standard. who exactly am i judging? please show me where i wrote that. i am not going to sit here and let people say that they know me or my people. you don't know me. but i am beginning to know you. you base things not on truth but on fiction. where do you get off telling anyone that all whites are hung up on slavery? i'm not going to sit here and defend myself and other white people any longer. it is not worth my precious time.

you know what, if i don't know a person's individual merits, then what RIGHT do i have to judge him? i obviously don't know him so why would i say anything about him?

black or white, you don't have a right, responsibility or the knowledge to judge an entire group of people. i don't live in the past, i live in the present. i want to make my life, and that of my friends' and family, as productive and happy as possible. this is not living in a fantasy world, it is reality.

i don't know you and i'm not judging you. i don't care if you're latino, asian, black, white, indian or anything else. i have no preconceived notions about you except that you think all white people are evil. that is really sad, because honestly, i am one of the nicest people you will meet. i have never treated anyone with utter disrespect and i don't want that to ever happen to me.

so please, ictyre, i am not attacking you. not at all. just please judge me with the same standards as if my skin was a darker shade and only if you know me.

Peace.

cash78mere,
You said verbatim," I JUDGE people on their own individual merits." Apparently you don't know what you are talking about because you can't realize what you are saying.

I never said I agreed with anyone for judging a whole race. Blacks shouldn't do it, but it's hard not to when you are facing racism everyday. Here is my present reality, America is a country that was founded and developed for the uplifting of WHITE people. Not Blacks! Blacks were part of the country's development only as slaves. Do you face racism everyday? Or are you simply enjoying the fruits of an oppressed people?

No, I don't think all White people are evil. I do believe that they will take care of each other no matter who/whom affects. That's my reality!


This is not a "we are the world" forum to discuss race relations. So let's get back to greek relations. What sorority do you belong to?

ictyre,

here was our misunderstanding. i was not talking about judging people in only a bad manner. i guess it was improperly worded. i simply meant that when i meet someone, and get an impression of them, it is not related to their race. it is related to them only. such as--when i get in a disagreement with someone, it is because of what that person did to me, not because they are white/black. trying to explain this is hard, but i honestly was not talking about "judging" in only a negative manner. please let me know if this has cleared up what i meant. i just get very hurt when i read people say "white people are only in things for themselves." please don't think that. yes, there are many people who are only in things to better their own "kind", but there are many more who are not out for purely selfish reasons.

anyways, now that that is out of the way. i am an alpha chi omega. i see that your email in your profile says "apathetapsi@". is that your fraternity?

Peace http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

Racism is a 2 way street.

This is the whole thing in a nutshell --- for someone to hate blacks is not any more right than someone who hates whites (or Latinos, Asians, Native Americans, etc.)

No one has the right to judge PERIOD! Like the Hard Rock Cafe slogan "Love All, Serve All"!

thank you DELTABRAT, thank you!

your response was very nice. you have every right to be mad at people who have outright said things to you and people you know. those people obviously aren't worth the ground they walk on.

i'm so glad that you see why I (and other people) get so upset when people generalize about any race. there are bad and good seeds in every race. i'm not saying that i have changed your mindset (obviously not my point!) but i am glad that you were able to overlook your hurt and rage to see the hurt of another person. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif for that i am thankful!

i'm so glad this post didn't turn into a hate spewing all out war like others have. we all got to speak our minds and some of us (myself included) have been able to expand our opinions based on other people's experiences.

DELTABRAT, i'l tell ya, i would NEVER choose sides with a racist white over a black! NEVER! it doesn't matter to me that i am white and they are white, if they are wrong, they will not receive my support. i will not speak for all people, but i'd have to fathom that most people feel the same way.

oh, and ictyre, i don't know why i assumed you were in a frat. if you're in a sorority i apologize. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

Peace. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

niknak..........ditto!!!!!!!

cash78mere:

Yes, I do stand corrected. You are very right in that fact. It is difficult NOT to over-generalize. I apologize. There are a lot of people here who were not born and bred in the United Snakes of Amerikkka. Those people do tend to have a different point of view. I am however speaking of people whom I KNOW have said that to me personally and they ARE in fact from here. I feel that if someone says that, they should do what you did. Explain, somewhat. Not that I am owed an explanation. But make your place known. I can understand where you are coming from because your ancestors, in fact , had nothing to do with the lynchin'. But some of them folks' people did. Finally, I would like to say, and I KNOW this isn'tfair, but a lot of times it's hard because although someone my be from Europe or some other part of the world and be white, it still don't take away my pain. You STILL are afforded certain "luxuries" base on you color. Additionally, you CHOSE to come here based on some corrupt shit goin' down where you are from (that's f#@!ed up) But I didn't choose to come here. And after I was brought to this place, then I was persecuted. On top of that, back in the mother land, we were and are STILL being oppressed by the white man. APART-HATE (APARTHEID) JUST ended, like yesterday. DAMN. Is there no safe haven for brothahs and sistahs? NO!
cash78mere...PEACE. Thanks for the nice, calm, coherent response http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

hello:

Sorry I forgot that. If there is no beef on your part then please allow me to vent mine. If you feel a certain way about the Chinese people being brought over as slaves then PUT YO' BEEF DOWN, BABY!!! I am !!!

I can't speak for everyone...you speak for you. Not trying to be rude http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

Icytre,

Appreciate your responses. It feels good to see both you and cash78mere dialogue in a respectful way. I think I ditto-ed some of your responses. I have a problem in that I type something in reponse to a post, then as I read, I notice that about 100 people have already said the same thing. What sorority are you in? I think mines is obvious.


Oooooooo-Ooooooop to the Devastating Ladies of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.

" Crimson and Cream
Every Little Girl's Dream"

Oops! Perhaps you are male and in a fraternity. So sorry http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif

[This message has been edited by DELTABRAT (edited June 25, 2000).]

I am in a fraternity, Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc., which is the first fraternity founded for males of African descent. (the first black fraternity)

Check out our website @ www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Residence/4799/
It is in bad need of re-construction.

I am the the second person from the right on the first row.

Hello Deltabrat,

I was so glad to see that you too were from Compton. Compton in the house. Please e-mail me. I just left Compton. GO LAKERS and am now back in the Bay where I attend law school. Maybe we can hook up, next time I am down.

I am also glad to say that I agree with all your comments on the board. I am glad that there are others who share my sentiments. It is nice to sit back and let someone else pick up the argument.

Good luck with grad school.

And just one parting comment. All of you outraged white folks who hate being generalized. My point to you is whether you or your family participated in racial oppression. You reap the benefits of it everyday, by WHITE PRIVILEGE. To me that is the generality that matters the most.

haiti. If Black women used your rationale. All we would do is date outside of our race. The higher up in education level you get the fewer black men you see. Yet you don't see me jumping the band wagon of interacial dating. It is going to take more than a couple of rejections for me to jump the boat.

Phirst Pham love to ice.

------------------
Aim for the moon,.... if you miss you'll be among the stars.

I See YOU ICYTRE!!!
I am not mad at the brothahs at all!!
What university is that? Perhaps I should actually look at the site and not just gawk http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif at the picture and I'd find out.

chAKAlate:

Girl yes Compton IS in the hezee!!!
What school are you attending up north?

Actually I am coming your way the weekend of Jusy 22nd. My best friend from high school (she's your Soror) and I are going up to Oakland (for her birthday) to vist our other best friend from high school (she's also an AKA). One is from Compton and the other Lynwood (heeey!!!) Is your e-mail address in your profile? I will write you to let you know what's up. Yeah, where are some parties? I understand grad school doesn't allow a lot of free time but SOMETHING http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif PLEASE!!!

PEACE

[This message has been edited by DELTABRAT (edited June 27, 2000).]

You are so right chakalate, I almost forgot. We are sooooo privileged to be white. Everything is given to white people for free, heck I don't even have to work and I can be more successful than the black folk... yeah, whatever...

Have you ever looked inside a scholarship book? I did, I looked through many when I entered college and found that there really wasn't much available for white males, regardless of financial need or merit. The few scholarships that are available to white people are for women and I think those may have been about 10% of the scholarships in the books I read. Every day there is a new scholarship program announced on the news for low-income blacks or latinos, but never for low-income whites. Why? Because low-incomes whites do not need help? Oh, that's right, I forgot again, the low-income whites go to college for free, even if they are terrible students, just because of white privilege.

To get government jobs test score requirements for minorities are lowered. That means I MUST work harder and MUST score higher than a black person to be afforded an equal chance of getting the job. And then comes the affirmative action / quota requirements... even if my scores are high enough to surpass the lower requirement for minorities which is considered to be equal to a higher score by me, there is still a great possibility that a lower scoring minority will get the job instead of me because the government also has to fill their quotas. It is very unequal and makes no sense to give special privileges to people because of their color or minority status. I feel the most qualified should always get the job, whether they are black, white or any other color.

I work in private industry where I figured I would not have to deal with these types of special privileges being given to people because of their race. I was sure that my success in this company would be judged solely on merit, with new jobs & promotions going to the most deserving. Wrong. Up until last year this company made a point to hire the most qualified people who would help to guarantee long term success... last year a government agency came in and told management that if more minority workers were not hired that the company would face very stiff penalties. We are a mid-size company and already had many (highly skilled) minority workers, black, latino, asian, women, etc. But it wasn't enough. Now we are facing a real problem. Currently we have no real ability to hire candidates based on who is most qualified. Not enough qualified minority job candidates apply, and we are now hiring people who have no clue how to do the jobs, just so we do not face the legal penalties. With quality control, we determined that the recent unqualified hires performed way below production standards & much below the average (with the same training). This is not to say that we did not hire qualified minorities, this past year we have hired several very productive minority workers who we are very happy with. The problem is that we still have to hire unqualified minority workers to meet quota (the gov't may say there is no quota system, but there is) over more qualified whites all the time (I'm not saying that all whites that apply are more qualified). And now we have a new problem, we cannot justify firing white workers who are below production standards (who would have been fired a year ago) because of the fact that there are minority workers with a much lower production rate who we cannot get rid of due to the quota system. Company morale is getting low. Many of the workers who have been here for several years (including the minorities) are now complaining that the new minority hires are taking advantage of the fact that they cannot be fired because of the situation with the government quota. From just over a year ago: average production per worker is much lower, profits are lower, competition is slowly taking over our market share, our budget for raises & additional worker benefits is lowering as a result, etc.

So, chakalate, don't deceive others by saying white people have so much priviledge. Take it from someone who is there. The competitive scales are definitely NOT in the favor of whites.

http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif Wow - it looks like we have an arch nemisis for prettygyrl...should we call him the "Anti-Prettygyrl"? http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

Maybe the folks of Gotham City should step back and let Batman & Catwoman duke this one out! This is bound to get ugly http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif!

White privilege,

I was not even going to respond to you, because you are such an easy target. The year of the "Angry White Male" was in 1994, you are a little late. You really make me laugh though. The fact that a few African Americans have been able to gain access to areas that was once off-limits to them is in no way a detriment to you. If you are as good as you portray yourself to be, then you will have no problem trust me.

The fact that you cannot have 99% of the good jobs does eat at you, and I can understand that you may not want to share 5 or 10% of the jobs out there with women or non-whites. I can understand the anger and utter frustration of having to deal with people whom you feel are lesser than you. It will be ok, If you ever get to Washington, DC look me up, we can go hangout. I am sure the brothers would love to talk to you.

As for your not being able to find qualified workers, please. African Americans have to be twice as good at what we do, just in order to make it in today's society. I had a job a few years ago, and I knew that I was the badest M... F... in the building. I use to tell my boss the same thing, and he couldn't deny it, because my numbers proved it. What I am basically trying to get to you (well not really because you have a closed mind), but what I am saying to you is that you are wrong in thinking or saying standards have to be lowered to fit us. Hell, I out perform most of my white counterparts. But then again I am a NUPE, and that is what is expected of me.

Peace and Luv, to all except White Privilege,

What is this white privelage guy talking about?

ManndingoNupe, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to convey. At our company we do not want to hire anyone with a preference towards race. We DO want to hire the most qualified individuals, regardless of race. The only employment factor which is important to our company is making sure we hire the people who will perform their jobs most efficiently. This means hiring the most qualified and most experienced job candidates. I never wrote that all of the best candidates were white, clearly they are not.

The government FORCES us (through legal threats) to hire people based on racial preferences, aka quotas. We already do hire minorities & non-whites and have been doing this for years. The problem we have is that when we are forced to increase our percentage of latino workers from 3 to 5% within several months or face legal penalties, we are effectively forced to hire ANY latino who walks through the door. Whether they have the skills or not. That's what we are required to do to make the government happy. It's either that, or we pay heavy fines & face legal ramifications.

With time limits placed on us by the government and NOT ENOUGH qualified skilled minorities applying at our company within those time limits, we are forced to hire unqualified minorities over qualified non-minorities just for the simple fact of increasing the percentage of minorities in our workplace. This is a very poor employment practice because it leads to a lower level of quality within the workplace environment.

We WANT qualified workers. Whether they be black, latino, asian, white, etc. We NEED skilled & qualified workers to keep our company competitive. But, because of government intervention we are (currently) forced to hire anyone who is a minority just to increase the percentages of the racial mix within the company.

Take this for example: let's say next week we have 20 applicants for 5 positions, 14 white, 1 latino, 1 asian & 4 black. Out of those applicants the most qualified turn out to be: 3 whites, 1 asian & 2 blacks. Normally we would hire the 3 whites, 1 asian & 2 blacks because they are most qualified, even though we only need to fill 5 positions we would hire the 6th because there would be additional positions opening up soon any how (and finding qualified workers is tough). So we would WANT to hire the 3 whites, 1 asian & 2 blacks who are most qualified for the jobs. BUT, because of government intervention, we are forced to hire the 1 latino, 1 asian and 3 blacks - leaving us with 3 qualified workers & 2 unqualified workers. We are FORCED to pass over the few qualified white workers and hire the 2 unqualified workers just so the government feels we have the right percentages of racial mix. All we want is to be able to hire the most qualified, but often we are forced to hire unqualified because of their skin color. How can this be right/fair/equal treatment? What about those three white people who may be experts in their field but were passed over when the 2 unqualified workers were hired just to increase numbers? How fair is it to them? How well do these 3 qualified white people need to perform in order to get hired? Well, they could be the best workers and most privileged white people in the world and it really wouldn't matter right now because we are forced by the gov't to hire based on racial preference.

ManndingoNupe, How can this be close minded? Why should ANY unqualified worker be hired over a qualified worker? What's closed minded is thinking that forcing companies to hire unqualified workers over qualified workers is okay, because of race. It is not okay. I see every day how these types of policies are hurting companies in the corporate world.

How would you feel if a white underacheiving high-school student who just barely passed was GIVEN a college degree from your university just because that particular university does not have the right percentage of white graduates? While at the same time you had to work your a** off for the same degree? That's exactly what is happening with our company right now.

Looking back at the discussion, maybe I shouldn't have used "white privilege" as my username. The only reason I did was because of chakalate's use of the term WHITE PRIVILEGE in her message. I was actually using the term as the subject of my message. I hope using this in my usernmae did not cause anyone to misunderstand the meaning of my message.

In White Privelages defense. He said for GOVERNMENT jobs, the scores had to be lowered, and that HIS COMPANY couldn't get any qualified "minorities" to apply, so they had to take the ones with lower qualities. I also don't think he said he didn't want to share the jobs with non-whites or females. That's just what I got out of his post.

Personally, I don't think a persons ethnicity should even be on a job application, but unfortunately, you can't have a blind job interview, as interacting with the person is part of the interview process. Also, a person's name can "give away" their ethnicity. Just look at some of the non-whites in my fraternity:

Noah ******-Jewish
Koji *******-Japanese
**** Balasundaram-likely not white!(Indian)
**** White-you guessed it, white http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

white priviledge,

i agree with you 100%.

Things have to be a 2 way street--no special priviledges for ANYONE, no questions about it!

Please do me a favor?

Save the reverse racism topic for another millenium when it REALLY & TRUELY happens!

White privilege you are absolutely right. The days of white privilege are completely over.

Forget the fact that whites run this country. They comprise the majority of both houses, cabinet, and every president has been white.

I know minorities are taking over, robbing Whites of there fair share.

WHat college did you go to? Tell me at your school, were you the minority? Did Blacks take up all of the college slots for qualified whites. Or like in most schools except for HBCU's as in mine, were they a mere 2% of the population.

Hey if Blacks are getting all the jobs, why are there so many unemployed Blacks in COmpton, where I live. I know we are lazy.

Yeah but Blacks are taking over, we are overwhelming you white folks on the tide of affirmative action, where underqualified Blacks steal jobs from the always qualified whites.

Let me not mention the centuries of affirmative action, illegal affirmative action that was in place, when African-Americans like myself were not allowed to vote and were not allowed to rise above the job of day laborer. Oh I am not talking about hundreds of years ago. I am talking about a mere fifty years ago, but I know those are ancient times----Tell that to my grandparents.

No white privilege. Tell me when you get on the elevator--Do you see people grab their purse. Are you worried when your son, nephew, uncle etc get old enough to drive because you are afraid some over anxious racist cop will make them the next Rodney King or Diallo.

But no white privilege is over.

Do you go to a top ten law school and when you pass people in the hall, do they have a shocked look on your face because they think you are staff because of course no one like you is smart enough to get into a top ranked law school. But oh no I got in because of affirmative action. Ooops try a new argument because affirmative action has been banned by Prop 209 in california.
Needless to say that white women were the overwhelming benefactors of affirmative action. How come no one makes the argument that underqualified white women are getting jobs? Oh but no one would dare do that.

Because I get it underqualified is a trait linked to skin tone, only Blacks are afflicted. Give me a break.

A white man whining those things are too ridiculous. Try being a Black women from Compton. Hey how come affirmative action didn't save my school district from getting taken over the state because test scores were so low. How come affirmative action didn't make more than 10-15 people in my graduating class actually graduate from college? But hey I am on easy street, I am on the yellow brick road of affirmative action.

Affirmative action made me a cum laude graduate and perform in the top twenty percentile on the LSAT and affirmative action made me get Honors last semester in a class.

Hey please tell me what else affirmative action does, does it make being a single parent easier. Does it pay my bills? Come on now I want this magic affirmative action that makes the lives of Blacks so much easier than you poor down trodden white folks.

Hey I know where affirmative action is working. Hey try the prison system and death row. We are fifty percent of the prison population and we are only 12 percent of the population. Why aren't you all upset about that injustice. I know we are qualified for that.

Hey maybe affirmative action even wrote this response for me because you know Blacks aren't educated enough to respond like this.

And thanks white privilege responses like this makes me know I am not crazy and that racism and ignorance is still alive and the sad thing is you are one of the "good white people." I know some of your best friends are Black. You have no problem with Black people. The year 2000---man this is scary. My son better watch out.

Mandingonupe great response to his post.


------------------
Aim for the moon,.... if you miss you'll be among the stars.

City of Compton in the HOUSE!!!

I am just so proud to see residents of Compton on this board representing so eloquently and articulately. I, too, live in Compton!

Anyway, this is my first time opening this thread and I could've sworn that I just read it (Curious). This topic is one that will never, ever be resolved. Let's face it.

Chakalate, I am so loving your last response. You took the words right out my mouth. They will never know what it's like to walk on a public golf course in 2000 and be treated so badly (with name calling, clutching and moving personal items, and threats to leave the course if I am allowed to play)that all you can do is play and cry silently (I wasn't going to leave--yeah right!!). They will never know what it's like to have family member after family member set up and beat by the police and hauled off to jail and not know when the next time you'll see them again.

I don't think anyone is trying to discount the difficulties and hardships that White people face. What makes it really irritating is when you try to minimize our hardships and difficulties. The reason why you try to give examples of the problems you encounter as a means to downplay our struggle is because you really don't know the half and you NEVER will.

[This message has been edited by Wynna (edited June 27, 2000).]

I did a paper on this very topic and the resluts weren't what I expected. Anyway, I don't have a problem with black men who date outside their race when it's for the right reasons - because of genuine interest. My sister-in-law is white. I love her dearly, she's a great mother to my nephew and she doesn't live up to any of the stereotypes about white women. I do have a problem with black men who don't date black women because of our "attitudes" - those men are weak and insecure and no woman of any race should settle for such a man.

As for black women dating white men - I would have no problem with that. I'm not willing to lower my standards for anyone and if a white man meets those standards than that's fine with me. Unfortunately, SOME black men have double standards and have spoken against the idea. I guess it's a historical thing that is in our consciences - black men protecting their women from white men and black women bearing too much weight on our shoulders.

chakalate, somehow you still misunderstand my message. I do not discount your struggles and success, and I understand that there are many people who struggle and are successful just as you are. My message is not about that.

My point is that our firm does currently employ qualified minority workers. Several of our most productive workers are black. But we are NOW being forced by the government to reach their quota on an almost unattainable timeline. Not enough qualified minorities apply for employment here. So this means we now have to hire unqualified workers & pass over qualified workers simply to meet a government quota. Why is it so hard to understand that this is wrong?

"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." You know this quote right? Do you believe in the meaning? This is exactly why what the gov't is forcing us to do is wrong. Our company is being forced to hire people based on the color of their skin and not based on the content of their character, in other words, not based on whether or not they are qualified to work here.

For this company it is not about white or black, it's about who is best qualified for the job (regardless of race), it's about who will be able to help the company increase shareholder value (which is also our LEGAL obligation). But the government currently forces us to make it a white or black thing.

Maybe I can use your situation as an example. You are a top performing law student at one of the top law schools in the country. You are obviously one of the most qualified candidates for a job in your field. You obviously would contribute more towards the success of any firm than another student who has very low credentials (regardless of race). Now when the time comes for you to apply for a job, what if some government agency puts out word that there are not enough Latino or Asian lawyers represented in the industry and each law firm of a certain size will be required to have certain percentages of workers or face heavy fines? What if the law firm you want to work for hires a much less qualified latino or asian (who was a mediocre student at the least prestigious law school) over you, simply because your color and theirs are different? What if that same firm hired several applicants who were much less qualified than you but passed you over simply because you are black & they need to up their percentages of latinos or asians. How would that make you feel?

White priv

Your argument to me still does not hold water. First of all despite the misconception MLK was for affirmative action and have you read his whole speech. I will put some other excerpts that express a different view----a message about what this country owes African-Americans.

And your scenario, if I was part of a privileged group of people, yes privileged and I knew there were certain programs that were targeted to those who don't get a fair shot in: education, opportunity and work force. Then I would like to think I would be big enough not to be bitter and since I know I am privileged and that my people run this country. I would not be too worried. I know there would be a 99.9% chance that I would behired. (But I understand it is hard to look from that perspective, when you haven't experienced the other side.)

We like to forget that companies have been forced to implement affirmative action programs because of the long history in this country of employers including government agencies of discriminating against people of color.

When discrimination is over then affirmative action programs should end.

I would also like to emphasize that I think there are other markers of success than numbers.

For instance event hough I graduated cum laude. I could have done much better in school but I had to work and raise a small child.

If I get an applicant who has high numbers but never had to work a day in his life, come from a privileged background, good family etc. and I have someone who was poor who had to work their way through school, who were already handicapped when they started school because the highschool they went to was underfunded and teachers were terrible, or were the first person in their family to graduate from college, or had children. Then I would think they were equal because though one shows intelligence in being able to pass a test, another shows determinaiton, perserverance, and confidence. All qualities I would want in an employee.

We really need to look on how we evaluate intelligence. Some people are just not good test takers and that comes from someone who is a good test taker.

Okay that is my $19.08.

Very well said my sister chAKAlate.

You go Soror!!!! exactly. how many minorities lack the educational tools to compete with say their priviledged peers (for lack of a better word) instead of looking at how well someone scored on their test, how about looking to see if that person had the same educational opportunities afforded them growing up. It is so easy to look at what someone is not capable of without examing why they lack particular skills. Some, I say Some White Americans love to do this (to make themselves feel superior), oh those blacks score low on this and that and look at this. No, look at where that person came from and what they've had to overcome. did they have acess to the same things as their white peers, often they do not. I doubt very many of those criticizing would have the fortitude to endure what Black America has. I am proud to be Black because we have overcome some serious oppression and still are. If two people start a race but one gets a serious head start then of course they are at an advantage. Being white in this country although not free of pain or hardship does afford a certain priviledge that blacks in this country have never enjoyed due to our skin and their guilt. I'm not mad at them for that. But if in anyway they use that priviledge (and many do subconciously or consciously) to abuse and keep me and my people down then yes i get angry. I think at this point we should try to look at the other person's perspective and then maybe we will begin to see why these types of discussions get folks so heated. I personally don't agree with quotas in hiring or education, but unfortunately (and it is a fact) qualified or not some people will not hire/admitt other races if they are not forced to. Why? I think that should be obvious by now. So to make sure RACIST employers/institutions do not continue to deny the very thing that will allow minorities to prosper we have to have some type of standard. As far as the dating thing i say do your thang and if your reasoning behind it is warped then may God help you see what is really going in your heart/mind. AND please black men etc. don't make excuses for your preferences in dating outside your race, that is so lame and tired, if you date outside your race its because you WANT to, nobody, one or two or three bad experiences is enough to make a secure individual stop dating in their race. I've had my share of bad experiences and even with all that, hands down without a doubt always prefer the brothers and without lowering my standards). When all is said and done black dating white etc. the white person will still be white in a country that gives them majority rule and the black will still be a minority now falling under the latin population. if it makes you happy and if it is not hurting anyone then have fun.

[This message has been edited by PositivelyAKA (edited June 30, 2000).]

Chakalate, Wynna, you're from Compton, too! Get outta here! Who would have thought so many of us from such a relatively small city would be here on this discussion board. I'm not there now, but from preschool to 6th grade, I lived there.

well, I really do not want to get emotionally involved in this discussion because I feel like I can see both sides and despite people's common accusation that this makes me "weak," it's more difficult this way because I can't find *anybody* who will agree with me.

I am a black woman. I was part of a "GLO" as you call it, though most of the members were neither white nor black, but Mexican American, then white with a scattering of us black folks and asian people as well. quite frankly, it was cool and I have no regrets. (Alpha Sigma Tau!)

In dating, I'm pretty shy, can't so I get out too much with any color man, but for some odd reason, I developed this early preference for Asian men. Don't even ask me to explain that one cuz it's a long story and even I don't fully understand. But though I have learned the history (and not just black history but, for example, the centuries-old oppression and invasion of Korea by the Japanese), I would still date a white man if I liked him enough. And I know some will find that reason enough to despise me or even worse, pull out their condescention (sp?) and pity me for my blindness. Still, I would do it. And for that matter I would date a black man or a latino or, of course, an asian one.

i'm young and playful. the more options, the better.

I understand everyone who has said that they feel love is love, ect. That's cute. If it works for you that way in your world, more power to you. As for me, I don't want to to do a whole lot of explaining in my most intimate relationships. (I'm not trying to be crass) I mean, If I have to explain why dunking me in the pool is a no-no (sisters you know what I mean), and my family have to censor what they say around my prospective mate, how close are we really? It's not just race, I couldn't see myself dating outside of my religon either. Or a black man who spoke another language. It's a question of comfort. Someone who you don't have to explain why something is or is not funny. Which isn't to say that I haven't be attracted to and hit on by men of other races. I do. Just somewhere in the relationship it becomes clear that I'm spending to much time telling you who I am.

Wynna, Ndezwi, Deltabrat my fellow Comptonites please e-mail. I would love to correspond with you.

You can e-mail me at ChAKAlate2@excite.com

I HATE to see a black man with a white woman! E S P E C I A L L Y if the brother is educated and successful. It really turns my stomach. There are many educated, attractive and successful sisters out here. I just can't understand why some brothers can't find one or choose to date outside the race.

On the other hand, I am much more tolerant of sisters that date white men. Considering the shortage of educated brothers (or the number of of brothers in general) many sisters date outside their race for this reason.
"06"

That's BS -- I am anything but black and I know exactly what you're talking about. Everyone has to learn about each other -- no matter how the same or how different you are.