Actually I agree with AggieDZ, Twinstars and partially with PKTSU01, although they wrote it much better than I did :) .
My sentence got lost in my tendancy to become a little silly, and start gaving useful advice for mutually beneficial emotional manipulation.

KillarneyRose, that hasn't happened to me yet, a girl giving the talk and saying upfront that she wants to keep it casual so I can go forth and sample the wares of others.

And I have never brought up the committment thing with anyone first, I was always like:

The more I like you, the more I time I will want to spend time with you, and the more I will let you know the intensity and breadth of my regard both verbally and demonstrably (was that even a sentence?) And I am pretty verbal and demonstrative.(Authors note: Demonstrably is spelled corectly even though it doesn't look right).

With the converse also being true. I have left relationships when I would rather have sat home playing computer chess in the nude listening to big band music from the twenties than go spend time with the girl. In otherwords poison ivy can become preferable and a welcome excuse.

PKTSU01, I don't agree with the blame issue or labelling the offending guy an asshole. I (you and others may) have never been able to read minds. So I really don't know what her intentions are one way or the other. So as long as I don't lie to her and mislead her, and she still wants to have sex, why should I double-think my way into blue balls and a cold shower? I am not sure the moral obligation that requires I be punished that badly. Surely, I am then the victim for her getting me all hot and bothered when I didn't realize she wanted some frightening level of the "C" word.

Also, and this has happened to me, I have found myself agreeing to a committment because she brought up the talk and I realized its awfully difficult to step back a pace in a relationship. Ever try and start seeing others after a long term committment? Someone always gets devastated. So, I am mentally thinking a fair answer would be, shouldn't we wait a little longer to see if we are more compatible?

However, I can see her exclusively WHILE we figure out whether we are compatible, which isn't always bad cause it gives the person a fairer chance than they may have gotten. (If you are dating two people you are paying less attention to each than you would be if you dated one).

But if I don't agree, she is going to feel rejected unless she is unusually mature, in which case she may not have brought the subject up so early!

That is why I mention the word/mind games as a way to buy time!

Well there! *pant*

did you ever ask that girl out or what?

What??

Did Lifesaver keep seeing that Filly?

I believe there was a movie made a few years back entitled "nice Guys Finish Last." Had Brenda in it from General Hospital. It was filmed in and around the city of Louisville, Kentucky. It was pretty cool, and the nice guy didnt finish last in the movie, he got the girl and helped someone else get a girl too.

i used to believe this. i dated a girl that i treated like a queen and she broke my heart after we dated for like 8 months. she always wanted to try to pick fights with me and would get mad when i wouldnt fight back. i just didnt see the point in fighting with someone when i knew the arguement didnt really matter. i could tell she was just trying to fire me up. but i have a lot of patients. finally she said that it was over and that i was too nice. so i was stupid for a while and became a bad guy. i started drinking and smoking and stuff. and i have to say i had a lot more girls that approached me and it was easier to get a date and stuff, but the thing is none of the relationships ever amounted to anything because there was an emptiness. both of us were not as happy as we could have been, i really didnt like being an a$$ and though it kept her around, she wanted to feel loved. it seems people want what they cant have, and if you like someone but dont think that you can get their love, you try as hard as you can to get it. to end the story i gave up my bad ways when i met my fiance who saw through the crap and took a chance on me. now she is my angel and i treat her like it. though i still have a little streak of it in me.;)

Yea.....nice guys......

In the past I definitely have gone for guys with a little bit of an edge but who were still nice guys, and sometimes I even rejected boys because they didnt have enough of an edge....but now I'm soooo over that. The boys with an edge usually end up being assholes.

Now, I'm all about the nice guys.....but I still like them to have at least a little bit of an edge...

Well, I was ranting about the nice guys and I just want to say that I want a sweet boy who will treat me well, but I DO NOT want a door mat who's going to let me walk all over him--not that I would do that, but I don't like it when I get the feeling that if I did, this would be completely fine with him. I'm also not a fan of the pseudo nice guy; you know, those guys who claim to be nice but are really closet assholes.

Congratulations mattpike!!! I love your story and am so glad it has a happy ending!

Closet assholes are the worst. Girls can be them just as much as guys, but I seem to only hear of guys playing the "nice guy" act and then pulling a dickhead move after a few weeks/months. I agree with you, I want a guy who is confident/intelligent enough to hold his own with me (that can be tough sometimes!) but also has the nice, teddy bear qualities. We all want to be a princess in the eyes of our man!

I completely agree!

I prefer to think of it as men who challenge me.......

In no way do I go for the assholes but I do prefer men with a backbone. Too many men allow women to walk all over them and will do absolutely anything or give them absolutely anything.

Nothing attracts me more than a man who challenges me. I don't mean a guy who picks fights just for the hell of it but a guy who doesn't have a problem with an occasional heated discussion if he doesn't agree with what I said.

If a guy allows me to walk all over him, I will. And after a very short time, I will be sick of it, have no respect for him whatsoever and dump him.

cosign.....esp. the last part!!!!

I think she hit this one on the head. Why did you tell her you didn't want a realtionship when you do?

I think the biggest difference between assholes and nice guys is the nice guys are upfront and honest with themselves and their partners about what they want in any relationship. Jerks cover whatever they need to cover to make things go right. Of course, that never works for long. The other big difference between guys that girls want to stay with, and guys that girls don't want is independence. Anyone who is clingy, overly dependent, or seems like a push-over is a turn-off. Most girls want guys who are independent, can hold their own, and help them be the best person they can be. Do not confuse being nice with being a door mat.

I totally didn't notice this was old... whoops

Yes. exactly. Finally, people who get what I'm talking about! I'm really sick of self-proclaimed "nice guys" who whine that they are alone because girls only want guys who treat them like crap. That is such a damn cop-out.

what sucks is.....................guys that are supposedly nice.....................still end up being assholes.