TLAW

To my knowledge, there has been only one fatality since intake as a direct result of hazing. That being the Kappa pledge at SEMO in 94 0r 95. There were two deaths in the 80's related to pledging and both of those involved people with defective hearts. So in effect, there has been one death (one too many) as the direct result of physical abuse. Contrast that to 15 football players dying of heatsroke in just two years (most in high school or college). Of course, there are too many hazing related injuries. Way too many, especially from stupidity and callousness.

Thanks for bing our 1000th poster.

Interesting point you ended your comment with 411..... I wonder why that doesn't happen. Maybe because if they did jail their own member, they would admit to some wrong doing on their part. Maybe because they desire to protect their brother/sister in all things. Or maybe because it could be seen as a form of double jeopardy after the member had been prosecuted by the plaintiff. Not sure.....

But I do agree that orgs are attracting a certain kind of people, but I think it is primarily our own fault:
1) Think about it, every org in the NPHC has pretty much the same requirements: 2.5 GPA, full-time student, community-service oriented, etc. etc. So then it would seem that whoever meets these requirements, should be accepted. All of us know that isn't true, there are dozens of intangibles that SHOULD go into deciding if a member is right for their organization. But with such vague requirements, if there is someone who meets them, and they aren't accepted, they feel they have a reason to run to nationals and complain. And based on the requirements we put out, maybe their complaint is warranted.
2) The image we portray in public. I have had dudes come up to me and ask me about my frat. I have no problem with that...none at all. But when dudes approach with sh*t like, "I'm bald headed and muscular, and my girl is a Delta. I was born to be a Que!" WHAT??? Are you serious? Or something like, "I can't even imagine all the girls I'll have once I put those letters on!" " Man, those gold boots and cammies are tight! Man, Ques are just wild and crazy! I gotta be down." I get sick to my stomach just thinking about it. But then I stop to think, what image are we putting out there?? then I can see why these dudes think it's ok.
3)For some reason, a lot of organizations don't recruit. They don't pull people to the side and ask them to attend a smoker or gauge their interest in their org. A lot of folks feel like that is improper. "I ain't chasing nobody to be in my org!" Bruh, it ain't about that, it's about finding worthy men, and revealing the light of Omega to the deserving. Even our FOUNDERS DID THAT! And now you're too good to??? Spare me. So, as a result of not picking the people we want, the people who want us, choose us. And we are left picking from a crowd of folks who may not necessarily have been the ones we wanted for our org. And then weakness seeps into the fraternity/sorority. I am ALWAYS looking for good men to be a part......you can never have too many good men. I don't care what frat you are in. But WE should decide who gets an invite, not prospectives. Are ya'll feeling me here?
4) Prospectives get the idea that if they attend one organizations smoker, that they shouldn't attend others for fear of giving the wrong message to the org they're interested in. And that, too, comes from the members. There is no question that there is divisiveness in the NPHC. Some of it is in good fun, some of it ain't. But back in the day, pledge clubs would do things together. It wasn't out of the questions for one to see Lamps working with Ivies, or any of the other orgs. That fostered a spirit of unity, that carried over into the period after the pledge crossed the sands. NPHC in itself was formed to foster unity... it was formed because two frats (Que and Sigma) took the first step to address the need that all the orgs in existance at the time recognized. But you eliminate pledge clubs, and you send everything underground, and then there is no unity to be exercised. All of NPHC strives for primarily the same goal, the advancement of our people and the community in general.
5) One more thing....people, please think about the org you're joining before you join. (See above...go to ALL the interest meetings or smokers....do your research). I mean, if the organization is founded on Christian principles, then how are you going to be an atheist and join? If the hymn incorporates Jesus in it, then how are you going to be Muslim and join? That's not to say you can't join, because the orgs, as far as I know, accept all religious backgrounds. But the whole point here is to THINK about what you're joining... it ain't about hoppin and calls.

You can't answer one of the points above without addressing all of them. It's a task that has to, needs to, and better be accomplished...or things will only go downhill.

ROOOO

One more thing from the411...

We need to keep in mind that it wasn't hazing within our NPHC orgs that lead to this mess. It was alcohol-related hazing within the traditionally white GLOs that lead to these strict anti-hazing movements and laws. Nothing we did was considered bad/wrong until those alcohol-related incidents started getting national media attention.

Do any of you know of a BGLO that hazes pledgees by poisoning them with alcohol?
:confused:

And I'm Out!

PS: Obviously, Doggy, LoneDog, and I need to write a book on this! We've already posted a few chapters here! ;)

The logic here is quite simple: choose, or relegate yourself to being chosen. When you decide to do the latter, weakness does seep in!

Choose or be chosen?
 

Folks, I have been reading and agreeing with much of what the 'old skool' is saying, having lived it and all. :D

However, I do want to say that I have been guilty of the 'we don't recruit' frame of mind. I think that it has worked in the past but in these 'interesting times' we need to look at other approaches.

Unfortunately, many educated, hard-working brothers and sisters are scared-off by the specter of hazing and many of the negativities we portray. It is incumbent on us as members to strive to portray the positive in all we do but specifically to encourage those who we would deem worthy to look more closely at our organizations. We should invite them to activities and encourage them to do their research, even invite them to our informational meetings.

I don't think we need to recruit off the street but if we see someone for whom we would be proud to 'write their letter' or 'sponsor them', and all the heavy responsibility it entails, then we should step out on faith and encourage them.

However, we do need to be mindful that they must seek the Light as they are. Meaning that it is their task to be accepted, NOT OURS. I have seen cases where the sponsor has taken rejection of 'their' candidate personally and caused needless trouble as a result. We can only provide them the tools and encouragement, the rest is up to them.

It is sad to say that just as in any other circumstance, people fail to practice moderation and either practice the totally 'hands off' approach or take too much responsibility for 'their' candidate.

Keep up the great dialogue, peeps.

LONE DOG

You make some good points Bruh and your observations are pretty much in line with this post-apocalyptic (post -intake) world. All of the negatives that you note are either because of or has been excaserbated by the lack of a real, public pledge process

1. Membership is not guaranteed to anyone. That is why you had to pledge. People think that because that is what intake rules have created. Since you don't have to pledge, all you need is the minimum requirements to be accepted.


2. Image: Bruh, its been the same since the inception of the Frat. If you read the Dreer, the Bruhs have always drawn men to it for reasons other than the Cardinal Principles and more for its superficial powers. That is why "selection" is important. It doesn't matter who is drawn to you, it matters whom you select and how they are then molded into the "proper" fraternal culture. I'm 100% against that whole "wrestling culture" but that is an outgrowth of intake as well

3. Recruitment: Trick question. Yes, the founders identified their first induction class, but that is what you do with a start-up. You recruit by being what other men seek. By being a campus and community leader, by being the epitome of Manhood and Scholarship. That's what I saw and that is what I put out as a member. Its ok to invite people to interest meetings or suggest they give the frat some consideration, but Omegas are special people. The 8 vs. the 80. Thats why Omega seeks no man.

4. Hell no. If you tried someone else, step off. Omegas are unique. If you've considered someone else, there is no need to step to us. We are no one's second choice or something that needs to be re-considered. The thing that seperates all Omega men is that that is all they ever wanted to be. No one else is even a thought. That is where enthusiasm is born. If you just want to be greek, sample them all. But if you want to be a Bruh, there are no options. Maybe in this day of watered down intake, all frats become indistinguishable and maybe candidates need to research everybody, but I'm going to stay old school on this point. Omega shines in everything. If that isn't good enough, you don't need to come back after checking out everyone else.

5. If you can't be part of an interest club, then a pledge club, what do you have to go on but the superficial. When I was an undergrad, orgs did not recruit by winning the most step shows or having the bomb party strolls, or most unique call, or signing all the time, or having the most creative probate. You simply got to know the people who made up the org and become a part of the org culture while trying to become a member. Damn a stroll or a hand-sign or a call, but thats all freshman get to see.

As far as your conclusion, we are already at the bottom. I lived Black Greekdom in much better days than this.

Re: Choose or be chosen?
 

Agreed, but do you want someone who did not seek your org to get it easier than you did? Will they be as enthusiastic?, Hardworking? As omni-present as DST is, if someone wanted to be down, they woould. If they know you and you are a good representative of Delta, then why would they assume that they would be hazed or that there was something terrible to be afraid of? If I just wanted to belong to a public service org that had no membership requirements, I would be in Concerned Black Men. However, I wanted to be a Que, which is a unique Brotherhood and which had a different expectation of how to become a member. If the demands of becoming a member are too much for you, we don't want you. Our way of life doesn't fit everyone. That is what makes us special. If not, we will become indistinguishable as the Divine Nine is rapidly becoming. The orgs are watered down as they are.

Re: Re: Choose or be chosen?
 

Au contraire, mon frere! I agree that the process today is wwwaaayyy to abbreviated and undemanding. However, one soror cannot 'make' a Delta (by vote nor process) so the person has to feel comfortable with the chapter through which she wishes to seek Delta, not just her 'sponsor'.

As I have indicated in other discussions, I would like to see more stringent membership requirements, not necessarily in terms of GPA but in those subjective areas like good character, sisterliness and high ideals. If you are selecting good people who are willing to work, they will gladly be 'pledged' to show their committment. Those who are not willing to pledge are overwhelmingly not willing to work.

The specter of hazing looms because noone wants to go to jail. If someone allow themselves to be subjected to what today is considered hazing, they can be barred for life from Delta. If the process was more like pledging, then they would know exactly what to expect and adapt themselves to that expectation or seek scholarship, sisterhood or service elsewhere.

Re: Re: Re: Choose or be chosen?
 

Essentially, I agree with everything that you say.

Re: Re: Re: Choose or be chosen?
 

Gotta disagree with ya, Soror! I'm a FIRM believer in a 3.0 GPA for DST membership (I am ONLY talking about DST's standards, so other greeks, don't get offended). I don't buy into that "a C at X school is like an A at Y school." A scholar is a scholar is a scholar, and good SCHOLARSHIP should be the goal of ALL college students, and ESPECIALLY of the greeks! How can we call our orgs "elite" when we aren't accepting ONLY the above-average students. Academics is what comes FIRST when we're dealing with collegiates, right? We don't (shouldn't) go to college to pledge, we should go with the goal of graduating!

I know girls who have to STRUGGLE for the 2.5 :eek: . In My opinion, pledging with a boarderline GPA like that should be the LAST thing on their agenda! So many people's GPAs fall when they're on-line, and I don't think a 2.5 can afford to slip! Yet, we have greeks walking around (all big and proud) on academic probabtion or who aren't in school and never even got a degree! Is this the example we want to set when we talk about the importance of SCHOLARSHIP--barely making a 2.5 just to pledge?!?!?

Our Founders strived for and achieved academic excellence during a time when blacks and women were catching HELL all over the nation. I know things aren't all hunky-dory in our world today, but compared to what our Founders and older sorors had to endure when they were in school, sistas these days have it way too easy to be STRUGGLING for a 2.5! The focus should be on pulling up that GPA for the pursuit of academic excellence, not for gettin' some letters!

Same thing with community service. Girls buss' their a$$es doing JUST ENOUGH community service to get an acceptable letter to accompany their DST application packet! I know people who've never even DONE the service-- they just got the hook-up from someone they know who works for Red Cross or Habitat or what have you. These are the same kinds of people who, after they cross, are only concerned with partying, road-trippin,' and the up-coming step-show! None of them continue to do community service for and by themselves--and IF they do anything after they cross, it's only in the name of DST. If the chapter weren't going to work on a Habitat house on Saturday, they wouldn't be going! Why should she continue doing individual, self-motivated service? Once she got that community service letter, she was done!

I agree that we need to raise the bar. However, we can't raise some and not others--we NEED to make it more competitive across the board! I am much more interested in the young lady who's OBVIOUSLY committed to service, is an active leader, AND is able to maintain a 3.0+ in the midst of her extra-curriculars. Delta Women have always been multi-taskers who are successful in all they do. Why is it that we're now accepting women who do 1 or 2 things well, but SICK in other areas? Why do we make excuses for these people? That is SO NOT what the real world is all about! Do you think HARVARD is gonna let a student with low grades and a low LSAT into its law school just because of the kind of undergad school he/she went to? HELL NO! My cousin graduated from Yale with a 3.6 and an exceptional LSAT score (she got into Columbia, Duke, Georgetown, NC, and UPenn, just to name a few), but Harvard still turned her down!

If you have a standard, you need to stick to it! This is how you do away with LARGE LINES and how you maintain your good reputation and that proud feeling amongst your members. Now, it seems more weight is put on the amount of sh*t people endure during pledging, rather than the honor of even making line! That's because the standard is so low, that meeting the minimum criteria isn't anything to boast about anymore--it's about how much a$$ you kissed, how many calls you made, how much sleep you didn't get, and how much wood you took. Chapters now are glorified more for being suspended for hazing, not for having the highest GPA on campus. We got it ALL backwards!

I'd love to see Delta go back to a 3.0

And I'm Out!

I feel what you're saying 411.....

But it brings up yet another interesting point. Like you pointed out in your last post, grades normally do drop when someone is peldging. However, shouldn't the introduction on MIP have changed all of that? I mean, we call folks coming in now paper or skaters if they go through strict MIP and no underground process. Yet the "skaters" have GPA's that don't waiver, but the "real" bruhs/sorors GPA's have hit the basement. I can attest to this because my grades dropped so much that I had to leave line to keep my scholarship. And where I went to school wasn't, and ain't , cheap. And then I had to wait 5 years before I actually got to the opportunity to cross in a grad chapter, which was hard as hell, but it didn't cause my work performance to slip. Because these men were experienced and knew how to run a process. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that if a 3.8 student is all of a sudden getting a 2.6, then something is wrong.

If scholarship is what every org in the NPHC esteems, then why do we, as members, long for a process that will cause one's grades to drop?? That is a paradox in and of itself. So there are pros and cons to MIP and old school.

My suggestion is this: re-implement the pledge clubs. Make people stay in those clubs for a semester and PROVE their scholarship, community service, desire for brotherhood/sisterhood, etc. Get rid of the ridiculous errands and nightly sets. Make the pledge club do fund-raisers. Make them tutor students. Make them contribute time to charities. Make them meet with the bruhs/sorors on a regular, but not nightly, basis. Make them spend a WHOLE lot of time TOGETHER. I say allow them to do things such as dress alike, carry bricks....they can do all that ON THE WAY TO CLASS with their STUDYING DONE. Don';t get me wrong....they need to feel some heat...it's a motivator. But make the things these folks will do in the organization part of their process. So when they get in, they already knew how to set-up a fundraiser. They are already used to contributing to the frat's community service. They are used to fraternizing with the bruhs, though only to a VERY limited extent. So they are prepared if/when they get in.

Now that isn't the complete and total answer, and some folks may be doing some of that. But I think it should be part of the answer. Don't sacrifice one of the ideals in order to teach another. We should teach them, and allow them, to exercise each of the principles prior to their crossing. You don;t learn the ideals of the org after you cross. You learn them before hand, live them, and foster them in the process so that they are refined for service once you're in, if you are so fortunate enough to cross.

It is said that if you can do something for 21 days, then it becomes habit. Think of what 4 months will do.

ROOOOOOOOOO

Grades...
 

Hell, the semester I PLEDGED, resulted in my highest GPA ever! That's because my process was so structured and demanding, that I had no choice but to exercise time management and discipline! There was no room for procrastination or half-steppin! If the paper was due in 4 weeks, I wouldn't wait to do it-- I did is ASAP to get it out of the way! My LSs and I had copies of each other's syllabi so that we KNEW who had to do what and when. We'd encourage each other to get it done, so that we wouldn't be distracted or mentally preoccupied when we were doing DST stuff. Also, my Bigs checked up on our classroom attendance by requiring us to get our prof's signatures EVERYDAY! There was NO class-skipping for us--that was UNACCEPTABLE! I had my best attendance that sememster, too! I spent more time studying (in our special "study room") than I'd ever done before because, as any Delta knows, the "academic" aspect of DST's process is like taking a grad course! Before I made line (and the sememster after I'd crossed), I'd chill between classes, take mid-day naps, play on the computer, etc. :cool: Then, by mid-terms and finals, I'd be running around like a chicken with my head cut off, trying to complete papers and study for exams. If you're undergoing a GOOD PLEDGESHIP, you will be too disciplined and focused for that kind of behavior. So, pledging for me meant being on top of my game and handling all my academic business ASAP. That's what enabled me to do so well academically. Yes, I was barely awake in class from pulling all-nighters, but all my work got done. So, by the time things started heating up, my most time-consuming class projects were already finished! Too bad I wasn't still pledging during my last 3 quarters--I would have graduated magna cum laude! :D

And I'm Out!

Lone Dog,

Where'd you do your undergrad?

And I'm Out!

Hampton U

best decision I ever made was to go there....of course the scholarship they gave helped me in my decision!

ROOO

There is something to be said about academic requirements and membership. I remeber the fall after I graduated, the queen at homecoming and her court (sophomore and junior attendants) were all sorors, each one with a gpa that was 3.4 or better, and they didn't have easy majors (two accounting and one pharmacy), that was one of the better memories of college life. I would remind people that yes, they are all sorors, but what about their GPA's!

I have two daughters and it breaks my heart, actually brings tears to my eyes, that they won't be calling me Big Sister :( that is assuming they seek and are accepted into membership

Re: Re: Interesting Perspective
 

Coming from a long line of Deltas (3 generations and 16 famliy members as sorors) I've come to realize that "hearing" about "cases" doesn't mean MIP made hazing more prevalent, it's because news travels quickly and more broadly than it did in the 50s, 60s, 70s etc. and also we are in a more litigous society - people didn't sue for everything once upon a time.

Agree with Crucial
 

I agree with Crucial....... living in the 'information age' has its positives as well as negatives........

I know that's right!! On my yard there are LITERALLY students taking part-time loads just to be greek. Is it really that serious for you to push graduation back? There may be some things that I wish I could change about my MIP, but I can't so I just have to do what needs to be done. Besides, I would rather be the one that went through a MIP and remained active in my org, than PLEDGE and be a t-shirt wearer. But, it's like I said before......YOU MUST GO THROUGH IN ORDER TO GET TO!! :) :o :eek: :D :)

If I may jump in here for just a second. I pledged hard in 2000 and I must say there is mass hate for members that did not truly pledge in the sense of the word. But there are members who pledged but did not get their paper. The Pan never wants to talk about those members. I pledged ALPHA although my my is a Que and my mother is a Delta. We feel that the new MIP is a joke, because hazing still goes on everyday at one chapter or another it's just not patroled.

Just an observation
 

Greetings to the members of this board.
I am not Greek, merely an observer of this forum.
I too agree with the many who advocate PLEDGING. Because there is indeed a difference between Hazing and Pledging. I personally feel that there is nothing wrong with walking in line, while online, living together as one, dressing alike and basically humbling yourself to your organization. All pre-MIP processes(i.e. pledging) were meant to create cohesion amongst the members the line. Bondage and togetherness is a great and special part of any brother or sisterhood. To basically come in an take that away takes away the spirit upon with BGLOs were created.
And like someone said most of the hazing that has made the news has occurred after the banning of pledging.

These are just my opinions.

Wouldn't it be interesting...
 

if someone put together a survey and asked the members their opinion on pledging, issued it to every chapter of every greek-lettered organization, and published the results? I wonder what the results would be. I'm surprised no one here on Greekchat hasn't done it.

Re: Wouldn't it be interesting...
 

You must be reading my mind. After reading everyone's disappointment in the MIP process in this forum and other Greek forums, I would take it a step further. Not just make it a survey, but have chapters throughout the country write a letter to their respective organization leadership body and also the NHPC asking that the MIP be reviewed for changes that incorporates the good characteristics of pledging that builds character and unity. I'm not sure how each organization works, but there must be process in regards to getting members to vote on changes in their constitution and bylaws.

Instead of talking about how we dislike MIP, let's work together to change the process.

Snuggles #7
DST
RVA 12/93

Re: Wouldn't it be interesting...
 

I think if this were done, the results would be skewed. Only ACTIVE members would be polled if surveys were sent to the chapters, no inactive members. Granted if someone wants a voice in their org, then they should be ACTIVE and FINANCIAL, BUT they are still members. I think if a poll of ACTIVE/FINANCIAL members and a poll of ALL INITIATED members would have quite different results. Which would be more accurate???

But...will that accomplish anything...
 

A survey is great; however, the divine nine make up the National Pan Council. Our powers that stood in the early 90's came up with this. I'm sure (well I pray) that our presidents didn't just get together and do this on a whim. Many Sorors believe in pledging...however, a lot of us are moreso afraid of the lawsuits and etc. I'm sure there was plenty of discussion in regards to this before any of our bodies decided to 'sign' on. Because I know in 'AKA' there's still a lot of discussion with sorors voicing their opinions and etc. But until 'we' find something that will 'curb' hazing and the lawsuits. I believe things will stay the same (in other words, this system is not going anywhere any time soon) -- my thoughts.

And I know, people are going to say that you must have supervised sessions....but who has that type of time (except older sorors) and wants to do it these days? I used to be a grad advisor...and that's a lot of work......(a lot of work)!

In addition, I think only the FINANCIALLY active greeks should have a say in the matter. I know that anyone initiated into the greek system is my greek brother/sister. However, they haven't held up to our pledge(s). Why would I care if someone that doesn't come to a meeting, doesn't pay dues, doesn't participate and etc. wants pledging to be above ground? "Financial" membership has its privileges.

Lastly, I think we feel as though hazing has gotten worse over the last few years because we hear about it moreso. We live in an 'information' age. I can just search on the internet and read about several incidents at once. We also live in a litigous society...so people sue the 'deep pockets' all the time. So it looks worse. When I crossed, no matter what happened, it wasn't OK to call national to become XYZ. People didn't sue for every little thing. Right now, people will get their moma's, their moma's friends, the schools and sometimes their attorney's involved if they receive a rejection letter. The bottom line...news travels fast now... Previously, unless something really, really bad happened...I didn't hear about stuff that went on at other schools. Even if chapters were suspended and etc.

All of you make good and valid points, but MIP will never change. There was much weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth with this was first instituted. Over the many objections of the body. However, the political faction of each org and the NPHC, do not react to internal pressure. They are most concerned with the external forces that threaten our orgs from the outside. Those being legal, risk management, collegiate rules and regs, the media, and most of all, big donors.

What many of us do not notice is that now that each of our orgs are 501C corporations, we are bound by U.S tax regulations. As such, the U.S. govt can determine indirectly, how each of our orgs should operate. Therefore, any membership rules have to meet "their" standards. Anything construed as hazing, even as innocuous as dressing alike, will jeopardize that coveted tax exempt status. If you lose that designation, you lose sponsors, partners, and organizations that make donations to tax exempt service orgs.

Right now, on the national level, our fraternal organizations are businesses (beyond internal maintenance). That is their priority. If the brotherhood/sisterhood of those organizations suffer, so be it, as long as the business aspect remains strong. The impact on unity is seen as a viable trade-off to the interests of the "big picture". 10 years from now, their will be no undergraduate initiation, because it is becoming more of an onus andless of a necessity to the greater interests of the orgs themselves.

All of these are interesting points, and the following remain self-evident:

1) Like Doggy said, MIP isn't going anywhere. It's here to stay. So let's remember how it got to this point (lest we forget, and repeat the same mistakes) and let's look at where we go from here to make our organizations stronger.

2) When it comes to the topic of pledging/hazing: notice how the only folks who really bicker about how folks are made is the younger generation. My dad crossed Que in 1975. I crossed in 2000. And I have met dozens of bruhs with more than two decades of service. We both KNEW that I didn't go through what they went through for the exact same letters and membership. But there's no riff, there's no competition to see who is "more Que." But when I run up on someone made in the late nineties, they always ask about my process and whether I pledged grad or undergrad and assign immediate stereotypes. That, along with my record of service, activity, and lifestyle, will tell you whether I'm YOUR brother, regardless of whether my journey across the sands was harder, easier, or just different.

3) The very folks who were catching hell in the 60's, 70's, and 80's are the folks in office who made the decisison, no matter how unpopular it was, to implement MIP. We should respect the elders of the organization and their decision. Remember, it was us, those of you who are financial and actively participate in voting, etc, that put these folks into office in the first place. These folks went through REAL pledging and hazing, but they knew that for the organization's survival, they had to change. If our organizations aren't dynamic and adaptable, they will surely die. This isn't to say that our core principles and idelas should be compromised, because they shouldn't. The beliefs should live on regardless of the environment in which they are to be fostered.

4) Some of the people who were hazed or pledged the most are now inactive. Some of the people who skated in are inactive. And you have people from both categories who are active. So the process of coming into the frat/sorority isn't the determining factor of your service in the org. So why the bickering? There should be much more of a discussion between those active and those not active within the organization. Folks, we ALL took an oath on our journey across those sands. Are you living your creed? Probably.

In my opinion, this is what it boils down to: we, as members, need to be a better judge of the character of the people we let into our organizations. The problems we have don't necessarily stem from prospectives, but from members. So if we train our folks to look for the right qualities as evidenced by the ACTIVITIES and LIFESTYLE of the prospectives, we fix alot of problems that occur internally by letting the wrong element in our organizations. Everybody isn't cut out for Que, Delta, SGRho, etc. We should seek members with a discerning spirit. That's what gives each of us our uniqueness, though our ultimate goals are quite similar. We should be the Talented Tenth that the Alpha WEB DuBois spoke of. I believe that was our orginal commission. And we should seek others who want to be in that sort of company. Undoubtedly, a few bad seeds may slip through the crack, but they SHOULD quickly find that they are the exception, and their ambiguous attitude should quickly be changed by the fraternal company they keep.

If we elect the proper people to membership, then the process becomes less of a factor. And it's because we have shown the light to those who truly seek it and have a burning desire to live it, and not to those who want Que because the ladies love us, we hop the best, or have a tendency to show quite a bit of enthusiasm.

ROOOO

Very thoughtful dicussion
 

While I cannot speak for the other BGLOs I can say that DST is a 501 c(7), catagorized as a membership organization and not a 501 c(3) which is a charitable organization. Donations to c(7)s are not tax deductible for the donor. Therefore, donors give to our orgs for reasons other than our tax status.

The liabilities of hazing extend beyond our tax-exempt status (which simply means that we do not pay tax on any income we receive--unless it is non-business related.) It extends to the very existence of our organizations. Being hit with law suits to the tune of millions of dollars will bankrupt us. What we stand to lose is our insurance coverage thus wiping us out financially. We all have bills to pay--mortgages on headquarter buildings, staff salaries, operating expenses, etc. Without our infrastructures we will no longer exist. And yes we must maintain the very core of our orgs.--sisterhood and brotherhood--but these alone will not pay the bills. So if we are to maintain our core values as well as our infrastructures we must refrain from the very behavior that is threatening both--HAZING! JMHO

I pledged what is considered "old School" (Pre intake) and the Brothers that pledged me were extremely resposible bruhs. I had what I considered the perfect pledge program....Yes it was hot, but we did learn not only our own frat history but we even learned history of other Black Greek Organizations And Black History in general. We also learned True brotherhood (being your brothers keeper), something that I think is lacking with current intake programs. We knew (and still know) every aspect of our line brother. You see lines of 50 or more now and it's really sad that these men/women really don't know eachother. My older brother pledged Alpha in Fall of 72 and back then they wouldnt even take the line OVEr unless they were satisfied that they either knew eachother well or were ONE as a line. What can we do about this......Who knows? I think maybe we should institute a "bootcamp" like the military......maybe that would work....I don't know?

Speaking casually to an old-head Omega this week, I got an interesting perspective on this much-battered topic. He said, tongue-in-cheek, that the perception of pledging as either "real'' or "skating" was relative. What he meant was that he and his peers unconsciously assume that newer members have an easier process than his era. Funnily enough, he opined, Omegas that crossed long before him say the same about the process after their time. I thought it was interesting dichotomy. Is "pledging" in the eyes of the beholder(s)?

I guess you could say pledging is in the eye of the beholder. I pledged in spr 85. and I know bruhs from Spr 83 that thought i had it easy. And I remember when i was a young looking at Spr 86,87,88 ect. as "skaters". It'a all relative.

A GOOD TOPIC
 

Greetings Bruhs and Sorors! First let me say that this is a great topic to discuss because as you know, all Greeks do not agree on this issue. But as for me, let me say that although my journey into DST was a terrific one, I made it through nonetheless. I am thankful for what my pros taught me--because if it wasn't for that knowledge I would not know how to appreciate my wondereful sorority. My pros turned my "interest" in DST into my " love" for DST. However that was in the days of 1997-98, and I must say the process has changed. Pledging sessions have turned into haze sessions. The love was lost somewhere along the path b/c a pro wanted a neo to earn his s**t the way he/she did. And one thing leads to another and later it leads to violence. And that is not what Greek life exemplifies. But I must say that I appreciate my MIP, I learned to realize the importance of what my founders accomplished. Peace and Blessings

:D

I've seen it happen! ;)

Re: Old Skool Pledging
 

As a little girl, I longed to experience what my AUNT did with her duckteam--to be decked from head to toe in matching outfits (a different one each day, for whatever weather, and with appropriate accessories) designated by my Big Sisters; to immediately jump in line when I spotted my LSs across the yard after class; to delete the words "I" and "me" completely from my vocabulary; to eat in unison, and carry bricks and goody boxes, etc... All that protocol and pageantry would give me and my LSs a feeling of ONE-NESS that would endure until death.

I feel you soror...:)

Re: Grades...
 

This is a nice concept...

Why are you assuming that people who pledge will be t-shirt wearers?

Re: Just an observation
 

My question is, why do things like walk in a line without doing the other stuff that goes along with it? There are reasons why people remain in a line and it's not to look cute. I think ppl too often want the glory and attention of doing stuff like dressing alike, walking in lines, and greeting big sisters and big brothers without the hardhip that comes with it. But, what would I know about that? :D

2002
 

MsHanky
You do know this thread is 2 years old--right? I just said that to say the people your quoted maynot still be on the board to answer you.

Re: 2002
 

Yeah, I know. I was just bored and searching through old threads and thought maybe someone would respond. Thanks though.