Wow, I'm really sorry about what happened to your friend, sugar and spice. I'm like you, I just don't buy that a chapter's rep can change overnight or that it won't affect the members, because it's a possibility that it will have an impact on how members see themselves. Luckily I wasn't negatively affected, but I didn't understand why my chapter was still "penalized" for being what it was ten years ago...yeah, back then it was struggling. Even though it was always stressed to us that recolonization was a new start and that we were part of a totally different group than the one that didn't make it, we still had to fight against the old reputation. I think I've mentioned on here before about how my parents were scandalized at first when I told them which sorority I'd joined because of what the reputation was back then...they changed their minds when they came to Parents' Weekend and saw for themselves that it definitely was far from awful, but still. It's really hard to change a reputation when it's stuck for that long. And it works the other way, too...I can think of some chapters who are considered top-notch that haven't even made quota in previous years! But they're still top-tier because that's what they've always been.

I know in the end it's my choice. I posted here looking for different perspectives; thanks a LOT for all hte repies. Even the meaner, more fanatical ones, which made me realize how much people care about their organizations and how it's a give and take.

I think I'm going to stick with it, at least for a while, and try to get to know the girls better.

Why? Do you think they will become suddenly thinner and cooler the longer you look at them?

Why make it harder on yourself, the more you become friends with them the harder it will be to bow out of it.

So you become friends and still have a sucky social life.

Its like drinking till he/she is cute . . you eventually have to sober up and be stuck with the same person you would have rejected.

You're missing the point.

LOL. I can't tell if you're joking, James.

It IS mostly about friendship for me. I just haven't felt much of it yet with any of the people who haven;t depledged.

Yeah, well, that's because it takes work.

Sorry if this was mentioned before, but lots of Texas schools have a Junior quota, so Juniors are free! Re-rushing might be a mistake for other reasons that were already talked about, but usually it's easier for a Junior to get a bid at these schools than it is for a sophmore.

But, she's already a sophomore. Won't she have to wait out an entire year before rushing again since she accepted a bid? Wouldn't that put her at a senior level?

nope she would be eligible to re-rush next fall because she accepted a bid this fall. the actual date of dropping the group has nothing to do with the one year thing. this basically prevents someone from pledging a group now, then dropping and cob-ing another group in the spring (or even now).

if she drops out now, probably not. I know the rule is that you are suposed to wait for a calender year, but it's only like a month after rush at most of the texas schools so probably panhellenic would just let her rerush in the fall instead of waiting a whole two years!
I'm not sayin that's what she should do. I am just saying that she probably could.

Also, if she is talking about UT I know our chapter there did turn around their reputation kind of in the later 90s and they are doing really good now. They aren't like the top or anything but they are at max total or whatever. Plus I have a cousin who I think is probably in the group she is talking about at UT except she graduated last year and my cousin and her good friends in her chapter worked super hard to not be labeled as the loser/fat group and they know they have that reputation and it makes a lot of them mad because most of them are not like that and they are seriously trying to change it! She said they've been doing so much better every year in formal too. I don't think they made quota yet, but for the last couple a years they are getting closer and closer so they are making a lot of progress. And they are a really old chapter there and have like 100 members or something so its not like their going away!

When your a new member, it totally sucks to realize that there isn't a lot of pride in publically claiming the chapter that you joined, but they just need girls like crunchies to stick it out and give it a chance because they want to be the group that keeps girls like her, not runs them off with a scary reputation. Crunchies just needs to find the girls in that chapter that want change and convince the ones that are thinking of pulling out to stay! She probably doesn't even have any clue that the girls like her and the ones who are dropping out are the ones they are counting on to stay and actually change the reputation. Yeah I know it isnt going to work overnight but it will never work if the girls who are bothered by the reputation keep leaving instead of deciding to stay and be the ones to change it!

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

Right, but girls are going to know she went through recruitment, pledged and then dropped the previous year which may mean she's cut a lot harder, even if she does get letters of recommendation from alumnae. I know at some campuses that doesn't make a difference, but for many it does.

non-greek reputation
 

Slightly off-topic -

I don't go to school in Texas (so this may not be completely accurate), but I'm thinkin that at a school that big, the non-Greeks (at least the non-rushers) won't be able to tell which sorority you're in, either by looking at your letters or hearing them. They probably wouldn't know much about the individual sororities either.

Austin has a lot of sororities, right? Non-Greeks usually can't read most Greek letters, and that's a lot of letter patterns to memorize when Greek isn't even your alphabet. They'd probably think you were a barbie-type for being in a sorority at all. I wouldn't worry about having a "loser" reputation with them.

No they don't.

They need girls like her to leave ASAP, unless they are into sadomasochism.

This girl had a YEAR to see how her campus Greek system works, get to know sorority members, evaluate what she wants out of a group. It's not like she was some babe in the woods freshman who came to UT from the middle of nowhere and never saw the sororities before rush.

And if she says that she really didn't know the sororities' reputations - doesn't that kind of negate what she said about being known around campus as the "losers" WHEN SHE, A PERSON INTERESTED IN GREEK LIFE, DIDN'T KNOW HERSELF? Although it seems like the only people on campus she is really interested in the opinion of are the fraternities who won't mix with them. :rolleyes:

Plus, I'm guessing the reason she only felt friendship with those who depledged is because they were the ones who confirmed her negative image of the sorority.

James is absolutely right - she's like the girl who keeps going out with a guy she doesn't really like just because she wants to go out with someone, and while she feels nothing, meanwhile the poor guy is falling head over heels. We'd tell someone in that situation to cut the guy loose, and the same advice applies here.

Um. Why so much hostility?

I din't spend last year figuring out sororities' reputations beucase I had better things to do with my time than ask around about stereotypes amongst the Greek population, which still remains a small percentage of people on campus. I had no intention of rushing at all until late this summer, and even then I wasn't interested in reputations as much as personality of the girls involved.

You're missing my point about reputations around campus, too. The non-Greek students CAN'T tell one sorority from another, you're right, but because you belong to an organization at all a lot of them make snap judgements about you the other way- that you are snobby, rich, coked-up, have an eating disorder, etc- not necessarily stereotypes I agree with, but not ones I'd like to inflict upon myself, either. The Greeks, who CAN tell, though, think you're a loser.

Incidentally, I don't care about the frats one way or the other. I was just making a point about reputation and the limited social aspect.

And don't pretend that I'm the only person in the world awful and shallow enough to wonder if belonging to an social organization w/ a bad name and mediocre social opportunities is worth my time, effort, and money. Friendship is great and all, but as someone else pointed out, I could make friends on my own that I woudln't have to dish out a couple thousand dollars a year for.

Oh, and I'm not quite sure you totally *got* the gist of James' post.

Screw it. Just drop. Who says you can't still be involved in greek life? Become a frat rat. Being a frat rat is like being a free agent, without paying dues, no girl drama and committment! If one fraternity is treating you bad, screw them (literally, not literally...) and hang out with their rival. Make all the sorority girls jealous when you are at a party and you can drink, while they can't because they are in letters.

Yeah!

Crunchies, I don't have hostility towards you! I like you! It sucks to be in your shoes, and I hope you make the right decision.

Why so much hostility? Because a lot of people on here are members or alums of struggling chapters and have had to put up with people like you dragging the whole chapter down. It's hard enough to keep up morale without having to feel like all of pledgeship is one big long rush party trying to beg girls to stay interested and happy they are there.

I didn't say you should ask around - I think you should be smart enough to figure things out for yourself. You had a year to get to know sorority members on your own - they don't live in biospheres, do they? I find it hard to believe that until rush, you never spoke to sorority members, had classes with them, or went to any social events where they might have been. At the schools that have deferred rush that's the whole point (or should be). You get to know people through regular social channels instead of the (necessary) fakiness of formal rush. That way you can at least form an opinion about some of the members of the groups.

I'm not pretending you're the only person who has gone through this or was upset by the lack of social opportunities presented to them, but you asked for advice, and here it is. You're not happy where you are, and unless you want to fake it for the next three years, you will make those around you in the sorority unhappy as well. So unless you're really going to make a conscious effort to get to know the older members of your chapter and your pledge sisters who DO want to be there, I would say pack it in now, before you're initiated. Have a little respect for others.

And honey - I have known James for a LONG time, and believe me, I understand what he's trying to tell you.

sympathetic to a point
 

So before this comment, I was kind of a sympathetic ear. Let's face it, Greeks DO care what other Greeks think of them. And at school like Texas part of the fun of being Greek is hanging out and partying with all the other Greeks in the community. And a lot of times that is missing when you join a group that has a negative label among other Greeks or one that isn't true but makes others not want to do stuff with them. I can see where you might not of known this about your sorority before joining because Texas is really big and if you aren't Greek you probably don't know anything about them except that they are around.

But, even I am having trouble jumping to your defense if you are defineing membership in a sorority as "dishing out a couple thousand dollars" to make friends. If that is how you think it works, then I guess I can understand you getting all pissed off when your couple of thousand bucks only buys you 100 friends when everyone else gets 180! What a rip-off! :rolleyes:

But making comments like that is what gets people all hostile.

And for the record, of course no one thinks you are the only one who thinks like you do. Most people on this board know exactly what your talking about when you are having these thoughts about your chapter and the insecurities you're feeling, but if you spent any time on Greekchat just reading you would know that this community tries to discourage that kind of thinking that groups on big campuses love to prepetuate. (You know, that "ABC is the best and XYZ sucks" crap.) Everyone knows it exists, but this is kind of a place where people like to squelch it and call everyone on that garbage. At the very least, they try not to reinforce the attitude, so probably you arent gonna feel the love on this topic.

I think that last post of your just lost you a lot of sympathy, crunchies.

Your attitude in general towards greeks sucks. Why did you want to join a sorority at all if you think all that?

Drop now. The sorority doesn't deserve that. And with an attitude like you have, I don't know why another one would pick you up next year.

Even if you did get in another group by dropping and rerushing, you'll just end up having the same or similar issues.

I'm also curious as to why of the sudden the "reputation" of this group, which you never knew about before rush and you admit that people outside of the greek system don't know about, means so much to you.

You said you had a boyfriend, so why does it matter if you mix with the "top" fraternities? Now i'm starting to understand why he may not be supportive of you in this endeavor- if you just care about mixing with the boys.

Re: sympathetic to a point
 

My favorite statement of the thread. LOL!!!
:D

Wow crunchies. At first I was honestly sympathetic, however after that last post I hope you drop out as quick as you can. Struggling chapters do NOT need members like yourself so stop wasting their time. In your last post you said "oh I should give it more time!" but after this one, you have just validated what everyone else has been posting.

I think this is the best advice given in the whole thread. ;)

Does this thread not make anyone else hungry for Carvel ice cream cakes? I thought that awesome stuff in b/w layers is called crunchies....

If you want to be in a sorority.... Stay where you are. If you re-rush, as a Junior.... Your odds of getting a bid are slim to none.

Seriously.

And by the way, at UT..... There are really no loser sororities. I believe almost every chapter there is very highly regarded by their national organizations.

This is a GREAT greek system.... I honestly think that you should feel lucky that you got a bid.

That said.... If you don't care about these girls that are now your sisters, and truly think that they are all "losers" then by all means drop.... As someone has said before, the chapter deserves better.

It only takes one stronge pledge class to change a reputation. Get your best sisters together and change their reputation on campus.

OOOOOOH good call Ms. Legal Eagle. :D

and amazinglagirl, your comment on buying friends is the best ever.

I think it's hilarious that people keep whining about how non-Greeks think we're buying friends: "We're not paying for friends. We're paying for the increased social opportunities, the sisterhood events, and the upkeep of the house." Which is a all well and good until you take into account the fact that these same people will get upset when people join sororities for any reason other than "friendship."

GLOs are -- from a financial standpoint -- a business, just like anything else. If you're charging a thousand bucks a semester for someone to be in your organization, and you're NOT charging them for the friendships . . . then what are you charging them for? Primarily the social opportunities. And if you're not getting the social opportunities, or not 1000 dollars worth of social opportunities . . . then I don't think it's out of line to quit.

I'm not sure how you can argue that "Joining a sorority is only about lifelong friendship, not reputation, not parties!" but that tune changes quite a bit when it comes to paying the bills.

All good points.

I don't get the hostility, either, and I think it does qualify as hostility. Here we have someone who is presumaby coming to GC and being really honest about something that is troubling her. I would imagine that it is VERY, very common for someone to end up in a house and later be dissatisfied or bothered for one reason or another -- even if she's a sophomore.

Why can't she come here and talk honestly about it without being attacked? Frankly, it sounds like people are defensive.

Thank you sugar and spice!

Ok, so go ahead and depledge. You are wasting a spot for someone else. End of thread.:)

I agree with Sugar and Spice. When you're shelling out thousands of dollars for ANY product, it's very foolish not to think about whether you're getting your money's worth. I'm sure everyone at GC agrees that you can make lots of wonderful lifelong friends at college without being Greek. So why pay? Because the organization offers a lot more than simple friendship, like a broad social network, lots of fun events, and extensive programming that enriches your college experience. And if it isn't doing that in this case -- well, maybe it's a poor investment. It's not only reasonable but wise to give that subject serious thought.

Furthermore, when all the people you knew and liked leave an organization, that creates a legitimate crisis whether the organization is a sorority, a sports team, a choir, or even (in my case) a law firm. It's not just succumbing to peer pressure if you think about leaving, too -- it's a reflection of the fact that personal relationships aren't transferable, and it's a real challenge to break into a new group of friends when yours disintegrates.

Due to the near-impossibility of getting a different bid next year, I do encourage Crunchies to stick it out a while longer to make sure that this isn't the place for her. It sounds like the chapter is under total, so she isn't really taking up a spot that could go to a COB new member. Try very hard to meet and get to know the sophomores and juniors. Are new members allowed to eat at the house? Do they have TV night or other low-key sisterhoods? Hang out there between classes and whenever else you can. Try and find an upperclassman you trust (maybe the woman who preffed you?) to talk about the loss of your pledge class friends. If after a few more weeks of truly giving 100% to this effort, you still feel the way you feel now, you'll know what to do.

Ideally, it would be nice if everyone joined for the friendship, academic and philanthropic aspects of our organizations but in reality, that's not going to happen. If someone joins purely for the social aspects, as long as they pay their bills and don't break chapter/fraternity/university/state rules, I'm okay with that. It's difficult to get the chapter members to see their chapter as a business, though.

How I see it, you're paying for all the privileges that come along with fraternity/sorority membership. These can include social, philanthropic and campus opportunities; inter/national networking resources; the status that comes from being a part of a recognizable group; and support and encouragement from fellow members. That last could be interpreted as buying your friends, but I do feel there's more than just that. I know not everyone agrees.

We definitely had women resign membership who gave their reason as "I don't participate enough to merit paying the membership fees" and that is a legitimate reason.

Point taken, Sugar and Spice...but I don't get ANY money for being friends with the girls in my sorority. And I don't think you did either. The money went to pay for the opportunity to share our Greek experience, sisterhood events, facility, social events, philanthropy events, etc....but not once did I personally receive a dime to be someone's friend. True, we were more likely to get to know the girls who were in our GLO, but I never considered that paying my dues meant that I was entitled to their friendship.

I don't think it is out of line for her to quit if she is not liking her experience and they are not offering a competitive social program (or whatever it is that she is looking for) but I still think it is sad to expect the thousand dollars to buy her friends. Because even in the "nonloser" sororities :rolleyes: your friendship with others is not automatic...it is the result of shared experiences and a little effort at being a good friend.

I wasn't being hostile.:D although I have a tendency to sound that way... darn internet makes it hard to convey emotions.
actually I emphasis with crunchies quite a bit. I was a sophmore when I went through rush... I was still completely clueless about the greek systerm! But I though well it might be fun, and I could meet different people. I had an active social life before I joined a sorority so it just doubled that aspect... So I had no idea what I was getting into time commitment, reps, or anything!!
In my expirance, upper teir groups could careless about talking about your group, or at least on my campus. The only people that talk about groups are the ones that are directly competing against you for PNMS. I never really gave a rats ass what the other sororities said about my group... although I always found the sterotypes (once I joined) of the groups on campus halarious... because they were never accurate. (I can't spell!)
I completely understand the flustration over lackof mixers... from time to time... everyone gets cancels on or has to cancel.... In fact once someone posted something on another groups website that I supposely posted that cause a mixer to get cancelled. Of Course I didn't do that... how tacky... who would post negative remarks and leave their name!
Any who... if your going to stick around. I would suggust you get to know everyone that you can... in a chapter that large, it will be hard to be everyones best friend but I am sure that has been covered in much detail on GC.
if you just don't think that the sorority is right for you then depledge... it happens from time to time... but I think you should at least make an effort first... you may find it is the right place for you or you may not. just go into with positive thoughts... (haha that sounds so hippie)
but if you depledge... be considerate of the sisters feelings. even though you don't know them.... I promise that they know who you are (or at least they know of you) and want you to be there, otherwise they wouldn't have taken you...

I have read the whole thread (woo hoo I rock!!!) and I was at first completely sympathetic to Crunchies. Mainly because when I was a freshman and joined my chapter I didn't know to many of the upperclassman either. Now, I didn't have Alphas dropping out right and left, but the seniors weren't around much. Although for me, I made an EFFORT to get to know my sisters. I volunteered to do things. I went over to the house. I understood that it was MY JOB AS WELL AS THEIRS!!!!

But now...

Girl I just want to bitch slap you.



You claim that reputations and hanging out with fraternities doesn't matter to you, but your posts don't seem to indicate otherwise.

Trust me, us "worldly" members of greekchat know how to read the fine lines of a post and honey, we've read the fine lines.

Basically, your fine line is saying that you DO care about your reputation and you DO care about what other greeks/non-greeks are saying about you and you DO care about the "social aspects" of greek life.



you better hope it never comes out what chapter you are a member of, because if I found out you were in my sorority, I would be on the phone so fast your head would spin, because I'm not going to let some new member talk shit about my sisters the way you have in this thread.



end of my pedastal


I'm sorry if I sound mean. I did feel sorry for her, but now I don't.

Okay....so you have to decide:

1) Whether to stay in a sorority that is "bottom tier" and you think will give you no social outlets (aside from the women in the chapter that you apparently like). You will graduate in a few years and still be a member of this organization and enjoy all the perks of alumnae membership. But it may take work to get to know everyone, and yeah, you may be in a sorority with a "loser" rep (but lets not forget that the "top tier" sorority is also going to have a rep...and it may not be flattering either).

or

2) Depledge and look for other campus activities to do that may be great, but that may not give you the experience of getting to know 100+ women and likely won't give you the after-graduation experience.

So what's more important to you? A social life with women you like, but that may be looked down upon by a handful of other people (or not...sometimes you find the smaller sisterhoods have less drama and issues and it's a relief) or you have a social life on your own without the organization of a sorority and the future experiences it may hold. Forget about re-rushing and going elsewhere...sounds like it's a very slim possibility. Especially b/c you said your Greek system is small.

I urge you to decide this before initiation, because if you stay when you're not sure, everyone here is right - you will drag your chapter down, and that does them a huge disservice.

Uh, yeah. If she is your sister, you are shit talking her. If she isn't, I still don't see how saying you want to "bitch slap" her is appropriate under ANY circumstances.

Also, are you saying women can't express their honest opinions about their sororities? You'd get on the phone to do what, exactly? Would someone be kicked out of your organization for expressing herself?

I just don't get the attitude that is dished out on this website towards people who joined their organizations primarily because of the social opportunities. Let's face it -- most of us are members of SOCIAL sororities or fraternities. I don't think anybody can legitimately say they joined a social GLO for the academic benefits or philanthropy first and foremost. If academics was your priority, you'd join a business fraternity, or Marketing Club, or something directly connected with your major. If philanthropy was your #1 priority, there are a lot of ways to be directly involved, and do it cheaper, than a sorority. For most of us, the #1 reason we joined was for the social benefits and to have fun. "Social" doesn't necessarily mean "OMG GETTING WASTED AT THE HOTTTTTEST FRAT TONIGHT" -- to me, it encompasses everything from that to "Laguna Beach" night in pjs at the house -- but I don't think that wanting to meet cute frat boys is necessarily a bad incentive to join.

Like we've all said a million times, you can make friends in any organization on campus, so what is the specific draw of sororities and fraternities? I'm just throwing this out there; feel free to add your own:

-- the assumed prestige of Greek letter orgs, the idea that you're joining an "elite" group (which may or may not be an "elitist" group)
-- the "pre-screened" nature of membership (i.e., the assumption that you will be compatible with everyone, which is, of course, wrong -- but I do think it's a draw)
-- easier access to the opposite sex
-- easier access to alcohol, especially for those who are under 21
-- the fact that it is something that is national/lifelong -- you are connected to people across the country, even after college
- a consistent stream of pre-planned "events" (Homecoming, Greek Week, mixers, philanthropy competitions, formals, sisterhoods) for people like me who need that structure
- opening doors for you both on campus and in the real world

I'm sure there's more, but that's just a preliminary list. When one of those things suffers, it's usually not a big deal. However, when you start missing out on a couple of those, or most of them -- that's when a lot of people decide it's not worth it anymore.

I think that ultimately you and I are on the same page -- I don't think there's anything wrong with a girl who joins a sorority to meet fraternity men -- as long as she doesn't slack on the other obligations of membership (financial, academic, being a good sister, whatever).

I also think that the problem with a lot of chapter members is that they DON'T view the sorority as a business. Let's be honest -- at some campuses dues are very expensive. You have to get people to see that their money will be going to good use. And if you are a group that, for whatever reason, has less prestige or fewer social opportunities, you either have to make up for that in other areas (stronger sisterhood, more fun at events) or you need to charge less (like the TJ Maxx of sororities? LOL). You can't charge the same amount if you're not offering the same benefits.

(Which is unfortunate for the sororities, since the smaller groups usually need to charge MORE to stay competitive with the larger ones, since the cost is spread out among fewer members.)

And I'm not touching ASUADPi's post with a ten-foot-pole . . . haha.

It takes a lot to start a chapter or join a struggling chapter. I don't know many girls that would want to do something like that.

You have to be willing to put up with the fact that you're not the best.

But at the same time, if you are a struggling chapter with a loose brotherhood/sisterhood that has remained so forever with no real plans to change and little results to show, you should consider folding.

Some people like winning.

-Rudey
--Those that don't, cheer for the Cubs.