OK-I'm bored and have seen this thread for several days.
Maybe it's small minded-small town call it the South-

I can NOT believe this is even a topic for discussion.

.......and ALL that statement implies!

I'm getting tired of this discussion as well... I am open minded, and that's about all I can say about that.

I've enjoyed playing the liberal though, can I spin again?

head on over to moe.run's thread about driving in a car!!!!!!;)

"I thought it only happened in pornos"
Ala-Chit Chat!

I agree with Bama- Except I feel parents and friends need to do a much better job educating people about proper protection and people that can't remember to take a pill everday should use other methods of prescription contraception.

I also agree that pregnant PNM really should really think hard about rushing. They really should hide it if they really want a fair shot at a bid. If they are going to raise the baby, greek life is not in their best interest.

After the posts in this thread, I don't want to hear word one about how The new book Pledged may present sororities in a superficial and judgemental light lol.

Thanks.

Would you ladies make exceptions for special cases?

Let me make it easy for you. Amy graduates high school and gets raped, not date raped, but raped. She gets pregnant and being conservative like a lot of yall decides to keep it.

She is just one of those Dahlin' girls, future junior leaguer and all, all the high school activities you could want, and a great GPA.

And added plus, Amy is wealthy. I mean wealthy. She could buy your house and everyone in it, or her parents could but they dote on her so it amounts to the same thing.

She wants to Rush because she is a psychologically healthy girl that has recovered emotionally from her rape, and understands that she is going to be a mom but doesn't see why she can't make a relatively normal life, especially with the enormous financial resources she has available.

Now she could lie, cause she is not showing, but decides not to . . . and yall here the real story through that wierd southern sorority connection yall have.

So . .. Does Amy get a fair shake? Or is she a ruined woman forever?

Too Funny. :p

FYI. It's not just the sororities in the south that have that weird Southern connection thing going on. :cool:

I don't believe this would ever happen the way you described it...I think she would move away to her aunt's house to have the baby and put it up for adoption.

Ahhh . . . work with me here gorgeous ;), I'm the writer, thats what my Amy decided to do, write your own Amy later . . . :p

In the meantime, what will you ladies do with my noble Amy coming through Formal Rush.

PS: I hope you don't do that to movies lol, I'll send you my screen play for critiquing:)

I just do not think a pregnant PNM would get a bid from a sorority at my school or a few others that I have close friends in chapters there.

However, if a PNM came through rush talking about her abortion, I think she would be axed too. There are just some things that aren't discussed until you personally know the person better.

Also- there are some nonhazing physical aspects of being in a sorority that a pregnant women could not do.

OK, fine -- tell your "story," but do me two favors...learn how to spell "y'all" and "hear." :p ;)

Ok so let me hear what y'all are going to do with Amy lol ;)

I would still give Amy as fair a chance as any other PNM.

And on a side note, running away to live with a relative and put the child up for adoption isn't as common as it was 50 years ago. I know a woman who was raped and kept the baby...he's now about five or six years old and despite the circumstances, his mother loves him just as much as if he were created from a loving relationship.

James, with this Amy scenario you are implying that those of us who would not accept a pregnant/mom PNM are doing so only based on "morality" issues rather than time committments. I don't care if it's a virgin birth - if she's going to keep the baby, she's going to have priorities other than a sorority.

And your addition about Amy being wealthy - who on earth cares?

My sentiments exactly. She still is not going to have the time to do all the things that new members are generally required (or at least encouraged) to do. Also, if she is raising a child, she will not have a great deal in common with young ladies whose biggest concern is whether or not they have a date to the football game, and what fraternity he is in. That has nothing to do with morality.

I think we should all be glad of that! After all, there wouldn't be room for everyone, now would there?!? (j/k) :D

Well. And well.

I believe the real issue is "tightness of fit". Any primary group judges proscpective new members on a visceral level. There is an automatic impression that this person either fits or doesn't. Especally in circumstances where you don't know cadidates well or at all. Later, the personality issues become more accute.

The more specialized the group, or the stronger the group identity, the more tightness of fit comes into play.

In sorority Rush, with its unavoidably superficial nature, the sisters are going to have to judge the new PNMs based on gut reactions.

I believe thats reasonable. And if that were the reason given that would be hard to argue against. Tightness of fit is a good explanation for lack of minority recruitment, why we might eliminate the less attractive, the pregnant, and the marrid women. ITs an intangible.

What raises the hackles of some people in this thread is the sophistry of the people thatr don't want to accept pregnant women.

The rationalizations range from:

1 She shouldn't WANT to be involved with a sorority if she is pregnant. there must be something wrong with her.
2. She won't have the money for it.
3. She won't have the time.
4. If she got pregnant she is obviously an irresponsible person.
5. There are a whole bunch of things she should be doing other than sorority from others' points of view.

Those arguments are easily countered and honestly look like what they are, an after the fact justification of exclusion.

But because they offered those arguments I presented a scenario that countered them to see whether the women that used those arguments as a reason to exclude would change their minds.

If they are not, then they should just admit, simply, that they just don't want pregnant women in their chapters, its a valid prejudice. And more intellectually honest.

Adressing your questions angelove:
Yes I think many women would exclude Amy based on their ideas of moral issues. Or appearance.

In my amy scenario she easily has the resources that give her the time to spend with her sorority. In fact she could leave the child at home with her parents that could take care of it and supply caretakers. Something that is not uncommon at all both in wealthy and less wealthy famlies.

So here Amy stands, she has the time, the stats, the money, and wonder of wonders, you know all this before she Rushes through various alum groups. Oh and lets make her a legacy also.

So does Amy get a fair shake or not?

When I was in college, I knew an undergrad who was a mother and became an active sister of her sorority. Her mother raised her daughter at home while she was away at college. I had no idea that she was a mother until her family came to visit one weekend. The arrangement seemed to work for her and her mother and her daughter.

I agree with texasgirl's, AOTTsilver's and Munchkin's points about non-traditional students. I also can understand Bama_Alumna's point. There are some chapters at some schools where a mother will not receive a bid. There are also chapters where non-traditional students will play very active roles in their sororities. I think that sororities have evolved and will continue to evolve to reflect the changing times and trends.

My chapter... after MUCH debate extended a bid to a married lady... she was 20... she was active for I think like a semester.. then the next semester we saw less and less of her.. then she pulled the "I'm married I want to go alum" and she did.. we couldn't do, even though in my opinion she didn't deserve the status. Now she's still enrolled in school and she doesn't do ANYTHING for the chapter at all or really even talk to any of us. So you can't tell me that if just being married this sister of mine couldn't handle coming to the required amount of events that someone who has the responsibility of looking after another human being is going to have to time to participate in a sorority.
I mean maybe if she had the type of situation Peaches N Cream was talking about where the grandparents looked after baby during the semester it would be a different situation... and perhaps James' Amy situation would fit that bill if her parents are willing to help her out..(not even money wise... but time wise) so I would definitely consider bidding Amy. but if this women decides to have the baby and pretty much is responsible for everything.. how can you justify spending money on dues instead of diapers ?

A-friggin' men.

~ Mel.

I think that yes, Amy would get a fair shake in that she would be allowed to go through recruitment, meet sisters in all the houses, and all that. As far as getting a bid, I doubt it. Like Bama said, we can't take everybody. People are going to get cut. Therefore, somebody is going to be "discriminated against." Otherwise, everybody would get a bid from every house. It doesn't work that way. I also agree that at more liberal schools than U of AL, Amy might have a better shot.

James-In fact she could leave the child at home with her parents that could take care of it and supply caretakers. Something that is not uncommon at all both in wealthy and less wealthy famlies.

Why would you think after raising their OWN children, Granny and Pappy want to become built in baby sitters?

I am looking forward to the day when I can love and play with my grandkids...on MY schedule or in an emergency. A pledge meeting is NOT an emergency nor is pomping or going on a retreat. Heck, after raising kids I'm the one that needs a retreat. Make that a resort with a spa!:p



BIG DITTO angelove and Bama_Alumna' posts!

When is the short bus coming to pick up Bama_Alum and greencat? :confused:

re: Dionysus' "short bus" comment:

AARGH! :mad:

Just like HederaNaturale with her "think before you type" comment - just because someone has a different opinion than you does not mean that he or she is not thinking or should be "riding the short bus." Negative comments about the intelligence of those with whom you disagree hamper the spirit of debate inherent in this thread and the entire internet message board world. If the only response to an argument that you can formulate is to call someone stupid, that really doesn't help your side of the debate, nor will it persuade anyone to change his or her mind.

It is funny that you should pose this question because I was thinking about this exact same thing yesterday. I say if she is someone you would definitely want in your sisterhood if she were not pregnant, then let her pledge (after she has the baby). I only say after she has the baby for safety reason. With all of these lawsuits going around, you do not want your organization to be held liable if something goes wrong during her pregnancy. Also, the concessions you would have to make due to her pregnancy would be unfair to others who were on line with her.

I mean let's flip this for a minute. What if you and your line sisters had just crossed, and one of your line sisters found out she was pregnant? What would you or could you do then? Or, what if you found out you were pregnant while you are a member of your undergraduate chapter? How would you want your sisters to handle your situation? I think putting yourself in the other person's shoes will help you to come up with a balanced and compassionate answer.

I agree with Angelove. Dionysus, I would expect you of all people to appreciate that it doesn't feel good to be belittled. I am surprised at you.

Gee, Dionysus... I guess it would be right after it drops you and your friends off at the "special" school and starts picking up the gifted kids.

Look, don't throw out insults just because my opinion and my alma mater's greek system is different from yours. Obviously, it is a very strong system that has lasted for many, many years. Just because my house wouldn't pledge a pregnant girl doesn't mean that I am mentally challenged. What works in other places doesn't work here and what works here doesn't work in other places.

Justamom, you are da bomb!
 

Justamom, you sound just like my mother! Except she says:
"Hey, I raised mine, now you raise your own little monsters!" She won't have any dropping off the rugrat so momma can go to her chapter meeting!
HELL NO!

Bama_Alumna, GammaPhiBabe, and angelove...save me a seat on the short bus, because I SO agree with you! :D

BTW, that remark that was made about Bama and the shortbus was a rude personal attack that was uncalled for! :mad:

I just have to make a comment about this from several different perspectives.

First, there was a woman that came through rush while I was an active. She was very open about it, and was cut from all six chapters by the third round. I personally think that while we sit here and fight stereotypes of alcoholic whores and dumb witches, having a member 'with child' also portrays an image. This is probably an image that most college women would not want to be associated with.

Second, after just having my first child, I can't IMAGINE having done it while in college...working full time, taking 18 hours, and fulfilling sorority commitments. Not to mention, I wasn't very nice during my pregnancy!

For those of you who think it unfair, the times they are a chaning...ideals have evolved with them, so perhaps an all pregnant new member class is on the horizon! Wouldn't that be fun! (Lamaze class during meetings!) Sorry, that wasn't very nice, but after I said the first sentence, I had an amusing visual!

aj

We can go on and on and on about this subject and never get anywhere. So let me just lay it out:

At some schools the student population and particularly the Greek population is very traditional...18-22, students rush the first semester or don't join at all, everyone lives in the house.

At other schools the student population is majority commuter, lots of returning students, age 18-80, upperclassmen often go Greek, there IS no house.

If you go to a type A school you probably won't give a married or pregnant (married or unmarried) woman a bid unless hell freezes over.

If you go to type B school it's not as big of a deal. Mainly because the majority of your sisters probably aren't "typical" either.

Students at very traditional campuses have to realize and understand that there is Greek life outside the parameters on their campus...just as students at very nontraditional campuses need to understand the importance of matching outfits for rush. :) Who goes to college and when is changing more and more every day...either Greek orgs need to change with it or they can become resigned to a progressively narrower scope.

Ill agree with you on that statement.

I do have one small change lol and I dont want to be nitpicky, but not all commuter schools dont have a house.

Here at Akron we are mostly commuter and we have houses for each sororority here and always have. We have owned ours for years so it is not always commuters dont have houses. :)

Im not trying to be a pest lol just adding. I do agree though.

It seems to me that a lot of southern schools are very traditional where as more of the northern ones are not.

I often wish I had gone to a southern school, I just wish I could have seen the differences firsthand.

33girl, your post was very well stated, and is pretty much what I have been saying all along.

The topic of this thread is "Would YOU give a bid to a pregnant PNM?" I answered that only in the terms of this particular campus and really only in terms of my own particular chapter of which I am an alumna.

I think that all of us realize that greek systems are different in different parts of the country. Actually, they are different from school to school. For example, there are very few similarities between rush at Auburn and rush at Alabama, even though they aren't that far away from one another. What I didn't appreciate in this thread is how some people felt that I was being discriminatory, etc., when I was only stating the facts of what it is like here. I am not holding UA up as an ideal, but being realistic about what it is like for our actives. I have lived in a number of places all over the country, and have seen vast differences in chapters at various colleges/universities. I never said that a chapter who would accept a pregnant or married PNM was a bad chapter or that they were making the wrong decision. Just that it would not happen here!

Let me clarify. I don't have that many problems with those who are against having pregnant members, I have issues with some of you guys saying that it is inappropiate to have members older than 22 or 23 in a undergrad chapter. The comment about the 27 year old having problems was especially ignorant and offensive. Let me repeat what already has been said. Whenever you get in your mid to late 20s, people take many different paths. I don't see any problem with a single undergrad student in their mid to late 20s joining an undergrad chapter. Hell, the person who rushed with me turned 26 after a month she recieved her bid. She dropped out though, but that's irrelavent.

You know what this thread reminds me of?
The scene in The Breakfast Club where they're all sitting around and Anthony Michael Hall's character asks if they would still be friends on Monday and Molly Ringwald's character says No, and then Judd Nelson's/Anthony Michael Hall's character calls her conceited and she yells at him and says "she doesn't mean to be conceited, but it's the truth, and that's the way it is. The cool kids can't be friends with the geeky kids."

Well this thread reminds me of that scene.

I had a friend who pledged XYZ in Spring 2003, and she has a 2 year old son. Everyone who is close to her knows that she is a great mom, a great person, and would make a great addition to XYZ.

So while she was pledging, various close friends would take turns watching her son. End result? She's a great asset to XYZ, a hard worker, very active, and she's graduating.

Its really close-minded to think that just cause a woman is pregnant or has a child that she can't be a good sister. Instead, if its something she really wants to do, maybe you should be more supportive instead of just telling her NO.

Frankly, it seems like Bama_Alumna is being realistic not just for rush at Alabama but with respect to most chapters.

Every chapter during rush reviews PNMs with respect to the PNM's priorities and how they may or may not affect the PNM's ability to contribute to the organization.

At a school with a competitive rush, where so many qualified women are rushing and worthy of a bid, a PNM that may have the perception of a conflict will not have as good a chance for a bid. Be the conflict athletics, theatre, academics or in "Amy's" case - a baby.

Basically, every chapter wants assurances that the PNM is committed to the group and able to contribute.

Please note that I'm not saying that Amy is not worthy or that she can not nor will not contribute. Just that she may be perceived as having issues down the line (which in this case just happen to be a baby) and that any chapter is going to consider possible issues when deciding which women of quality to cut and which to bid during rush.
---
A side note with respect to the pregnancy issue.

Few chapters would want to come between a mother and her child. Most chapters would not ask or expect a pregnant PNM to put the sorority before her child.

Conversely, even if the mother was willing to do so, I would venture to guess that few chapters would want to extend a bid to a girl who would be willing to put the sorority before her child.

Sorry to hear about the other girl, but the girl I used as the example did finish her 4 year tenure at Chi-O and yes. they did have a sorority house which she stayed from her sophomore to senior year.

Thanks for taking an objective viewpoint.

ha ha ha, and who are the cool kids?

I've said my piece about the pregnant PNMs, so I'm not saying any more, but in regard to THIS comment, angelove, I feel the need to clarify. I don't have a problem with a disagreement... those who know me in person know that I aLWAYS play devil's advocate and muck through EVERY side of an issue. However, when you make categorcial statements like, "you can't have it all," "it's completely unrealistic" it suggests to me that you haven't really looked at the issue enough to know all the sides and angles... if you had, I wouldn't have had a rebuttal, would I? ;) Telling someone to think and inferring that they need to be on the "short bus" are two different matters. I wasn't calling you stupid or insulting your intelligence. I was calling you short-sighted and insulting your breadth of thought. If you think that those two are one and the same, then perhaps it's you who's hampering the spirit of debate in the thread. You do that quite well when you call people out on non-issues.

HederaNaturale:

Oh good. I'm glad you were only calling me short-sighted and insulting my breadth of thought. That makes it clear that you were sticking to the issues. ;)

Well in this case, I just don't know.