Isn't that why RFM has the "SR" chapters cutting first round, so people do NOT drop through the cracks? Because they should be returning to the lower ranked chapters on their list (since PNMs don't cut, just rank) as they're cut by "SR" chapters. RFM is supposed to minimize the "accidental" complete cut. But it doesn't stop the intentional complete cut.

ETA:This also doesn't take into consideration girls who drop out because they don't get picked by their top choice(s).



Right, but it might be time to start chapters without housing. Crazy? Maybe. But I'd hope it's at least considered.

In short I'm saying solving the problems 'caused' by RFM are really more systematic issues. Quota was going to become an issue at large schools with high start up costs no matter what because the other option was cutting 50% or more of PNMs leading to higher anti-Greek opinion and a social stratification of Greek Life that's pretty undesirable and likely unsustainable in the long term.

Theoretically, but the reality at super competitive schools is a little different. Although the first round cuts for "SR" chapters are brutal, the second round is usually much worse. Without going into MS details, there may be reasons many pnms have to be invited to that second round even though you know you're going to cut them next. Those are the kinds of pnms who can be left with few options after the second and third rounds, because those are where a lot of the "middle" chapters really have to start making painful cuts.

Right, would you say though that overall getting cut across the board is down though?

I don't have any personal experience to base that on since I've only dealt with rfm. All I know is that there is still a lot of crosscutting butthurt that happens at my school and the others I am familiar with (and that doesn't even factor in the number of pnms who stomp away from recruitment when the only "acceptable" chapters drop them.)

You know, that's also something to think about. Every time a snowflake drops with mid and lower chapters left on her invite list, that's another pnm who didn't get invited to those chapters that round.

This is probably why schools with no housing/cheap housing are able to extend the easiest. I don't see how a chapter at an SEC school such as Arkansas could survive without a house even with the "support" of everyone on campus. PNMs will see an unhoused chapter at such a campus as inferior, no matter what anyone says. So unless a sorority is content to have a lower, but hopefully stable membership than the rest of the Panhellenc sororities, they won't start a colony without plans for a house. Even then, it would do little to alleviate the massive quotas because chances are such a chapter would win over women they know personally, rather than those who sign up for formal recruitment.

RFM can only force a PNM to attend a chapter's parties 4 times per formal recruitment. It can't force them to rank them on their pref card (well maybe shouldn't is more correct; I think misleading PNMs needs to stop), it can't force them to accept a bid, it can't force them to initiate, it can't force them to be members for 4 years, and it can't force them to become active alumnae.

I agree with Barbie that RFM does a great job for helping the middle and "upper lower" chapters. On my own campus, around when I joined in 2004, there were several chapters that didn't regularly make quota, and now everyone makes quota regularly and has good retention, except for one chapter. "Icky Iotas" are afforded the chance to win over a lot of PNMs. RFM can't solve every membership problem, but I still maintain it helps.

Thinking of schools with a distinct "pecking order" like Barbie's, it is true that no matter how much RFM shoves Icky Iota down PNMs' throats, if they do match quota, it's most likely because PNMs were tricked into ranking them. In such scenarios, I think that Icky Iota's (and their HQs!) need to realize that formal recruitment will probably never be the only place to get all their members. They need to realize they need to build relationships with women they meet in class, in their dorms, at other activities, at campus jobs, through mutual friends, to win them over, not have eleventy thousand COB events every semester.

No. They might paste on smiles and act like they were going to but you wait and see how long that new chapter lasts.

LOL. Not going to happen. Even a smaller house would brand a chapter.

The 4 sororities that used to be there have refused to recolonize. They can see what the future would hold for their chapter. I hate it and would like to see them back but realistically...

Just a quick note: Because the problem has gotten so dire at Arkansas, the sororities on campus are very supportive of expansion and would support a new house or two. I don't think there is anyone who is not on board with this, unless it is the one, eternal Icky Iota house that struggles despite RFM (and suffers all of the problems discussed in this thread)RFM has helped them, but it has not put them on equal ground.

I agree that the large pledge class problem is fairly isolated around the country, but if you go back and look, it is expanding each year. Arkansas has been dealing with it for at least 5 years, then Alabama, then Ole Miss, etc.

Drolefille, you are right, it is a systemic problem partly. But weren't crosscuts, and bidless girls also systemic on campuses prior to RFM?

I am not advocating the end of RFM, far from it. I am simply saying that RFM needs to be tweaked to find some answers for these large quotas. Or maybe National Pan needs to provide some help to groups trying to get on those campuses begging for expansion. IMO, the general attitude that "RFM is working for weaker houses" is kind of reverse discrimination and causing ripple effects across the country. Some campuses are more apparent, but I think others will begin to have issues.

The houses filling these huge quotas, despite being able to brag about their recruitment success, don't want NM groups this large. It causes all sorts of the same problems for a stronog chapter (drop outs, uninvolved, lost in the crowd) that bid lists filled with girls who get their 3rd choice cause for weaker houses.

That's good, although if it's support that would waver after the chapter colonizes and becomes 'competition' it won't last.

Unfortunately as long as it costs '$X' to colonize at those schools it's probably going to be worse before it gets better.

They were, which is why I see it as a campus-system problem rather than a RFM system-wide problem. Because without RFM you would have the alternative, artificially small 'elite' Greek population on a campus that will only engender animosity because half of your 500 PNMs get cut because quota is 45.

I don't see how it involves reverse discrimination-something that rarely exists anywhere- at all. The stronger chapters didn't need help and were benefitting from the old system at the expense of the 'weaker' chapters. And, overall, they're still benefiting from RFM. It seems like RFM's weaknesses are in the lowest end of the recruiting spectrum. I don't really agree that quota size is RFM's fault, but that it's the campus system's fault.

I'd love to see the NPC provide some sort of support to help at campuses like UA.

Right, and i get that. Those are simply too big.

Then they'd rather have huge pledge class sizes than be panhellenic.


I wonder if 3 or 4 chapters colonized at once, all not having housing. I know in reality it would created a secondary 'tier' but at least it wouldn't be ONE Icky Iota, but three Secondary Sigmas or something.



Yeah, I know. I'm kind of just brainstorming here because I don't think RFM itself is the problem, I think it's the situation on campus itself.

I agree 100%. It doesn't solve all problems, but it is, I believe, a better system for doing recruitment.
I also agree with this, HQs need to 'get' that (and maybe they do but it doesn't always come across to actives that way) and so do the actives.

If you're talking about many SEC schools, it would create three more Icky Iotas, not Secondary Sigmas.

And because they were IIs due to housing issues, it really wouldn't be their fault, which is sad! I know that we encourage PNMs to maximize their options, but face it: many Icky Iota chapters are that way due to something they do or have done and you can't blame PNMs for avoiding them. When I was at Auburn, there were 2 little chapters. One was new and trying to build up and had no reputation problems--they just needed time. The other--several of their members, even the new ones, did some really gross stuff out in the open at parties.

I know I'm rambling but the point I wanted to make is that some IIs are that way due to reasons they can't help--housing, new chapter, colonized at a bad time, etc. This would be these new groups and I would really feel for them in an SEC situation.

See if people look at the new chapters, just starting up, etc. as 'II' no matter what, then there's no options and everyone's just going to have to deal with a quota of 250 eventually. Something on the campus culture will HAVE to change to support new chapters until they get to a point where HQs feel comfortable expending $millions on a house.

What's the position of the administration at Arkansas? Are they supportive of expansion? (From the outside, it looks like Alabama is -- giving prime land to chapters to build new, bigger houses.) Is there any chance they could support the new chapter somehow, with a favorable loan or something like that?
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Campus culture doesn't have as much to do with it as the perceptions of PNMs. Even women who've never set foot on the campus before will look at these sororities with the gorgeous houses and compare them to living in the dorms/having meetings in the Union and which do you think that a teenager will prefer? And then if they end up involuntarily in an unhoused chapter, most are not going to think, "I will now lead my chapter into such glory that we'll be up there competing with the Awesome Alphas!" Most are gonna have serious second thoughts about Greek life.

And even though the members of the housed chapters will pay lip service (sometimes) to the unhoused chapters, do you think they'd trade their membership for one in an unhoused chapter?

I wish it were different because some of my daughters had great Greek experiences on campuses with no sorority housing.

I don't know any member that's going to want to switch her membership to another chapter besides trolls here.

But I maintain, that if there's "no solution" then removing RFM isn't the answer either. Those campuses will either have to find a solution or deal with the pledge class size.

ETA: and no, I don't think PNMs are unavoidably dazzled by houses and such either. Some dazzle yes, complete inability to consider anything else no.

I think what carnation means is that no matter how much Gorgeous House GHI says Unhoused UVW is awesome girls with great involvement and GPAs and all looking like Scarlett Johanssen, and probably honestly mean it, if GHI dropped off the face of the earth tomorrow and all its members could join elsewhere, they'd rather go to their bitterest rival than the unhoused chapter full of girls they were saying were awesome 2.5 seconds ago.

Tangent, and sorry if we talked about this before, but why doesn't Auburn have houses? Is there just not room?

Pardon the lane swerve, but I think the issue is that with SEC schools and other schools with a similarly strict, rarely changing hierarchy (Indiana, USC, Texas, etc), is that the information about tiers doesn't often change and is readily available. I think what everybody here is forgetting is the culture that all these PNMs (and fraternity rushees, for that matter) came from...high school.

Ah, yes, high school, where you were either popular or not. In high school essentially the popular kids have the parties, the popular kids are the face of the school, the popular kids are the guardians of everything hip and cool and start all the trends. Although non-popular kids can enjoy high school as well, look at how much angst and social climbing there is to be popular in high school...at many schools, it seems like it is the only opportunity to have fun and be involved.

And then flash forward to college. Juniors and seniors have by now realized that college is a whole different beast...ANYBODY can have fun at college and be involved. Hell, even the biggest Icky Iota on campus has fun parties, has people on student government and dance teams, dates fun guys, etc. But to a freshman PNM who is just months out of high school, I think she (and he, to be fair) hears about the tiers the second she starts rush and is going to be focused on that throughout the whole process. If she wasn't popular in high school, this is her chance to redeem herself. If she was, she certainly doesn't want a downgrade. I think in most of their minds, popular = the only chapters that will have fun, just like in high school.

The issue here is that I'm not sure this mindset is something that can be changed, even with RFM and patient recruitment counselors and whatever. This is something that comes with maturity, and with living on campus long enough to realize, "Oh, nobody really cares about high school status anymore, anybody can have fun and be themselves."

So I guess my question is (and I know absolutely nothing about sorority rush, so flame away if I'm way off) do the nationals of Icky Iotas (and I'm sure everybody has a couple, just like everybody has amazing chapters) put together a plan for them to recruit a little differently? Obviously go through formal rush, but also with the understanding that this isn't our main way to get new members? I know all those chapters COB already, but it seems to me that even with RFM there are still problems for Icky Iotas...at what point does everybody stop trying to make the system perfectly fair and change, frankly, the immature mindset of 1,000+ PNMs, and instead admit that maybe Icky Iota will never shine during formal recruitment, and that's an OK thing, and then tweak and work on improving COBing instead?

If all of this is dead wrong from a sorority perspective, then tell me so. But it seems like from reading all the stories around here that it is damn near impossible for an Icky Iota at a super-competitive campus to change their status by formal recruitment.

33, that's exactly what I meant! :)

When I was at Auburn, each sorority had one or more floors of a dorm with a chapter room and kitchen at the end of the hall. Now they have individual --townhouses??, I don't know what they're calling them--in a Greek area. West Georgia and Birmingham Southern also have this setup. People used to throw around various reasons as to why the sororities didn't have houses but no one really seemed to care much. We were right in the middle of campus, we had everything we needed, and our dues were much lower than on the housed campuses.

Well said.

It's not just recruiting, it's retention. Even if you're able to - with a combo of formal rush and COB - get up to total or average chapter size every time, if the best fraternities still don't want to mix with you, if you still have to see Icky Iota grafitti everywhere, no matter how many stops you pulled out during rush, your new freshman members are going to be dropping like flies. This is why I'm such a deferred rush pimp. Yeah, the girls hear all the stereotypes and tent talk and maybe even see some truth in them (like the mixer situation), but they come in and KNOW that and have accepted that. "Yeah, maybe I won't go to as many mixers or get nominated for homecoming, but I really like the women in the chapter. I don't really care about the other stuff, but maybe I can help it to improve." Women who aren't into that shouldn't have to go there - or feel hornswaggled that the chapter who seemed like social butterflies in rush (or COB) is...not.

There are chapters out there that rely too much on COB, just as there are those who think formal rush is the be-all & end-all. You need to do BOTH to succeed.

Icky Iota graffiti?...dying over here!....

Auburn has dorms with the chapter room on the bottom floor. Most of the old dorms were that way too. Ours was. Birmingham Southern does actually have townhouses, with one group to a townhouse. At Auburn, several groups could be in a dorm. I think it's 4 but may be mistaken.

ETA: Oh never mind, I see what you're talking about at Auburn! I was including the coed dorms in that.

I love the big sorority houses but boy, it costs to live in them. One of our daughters was an active at a school where the houses were new but each one housed 16, usually officers. Those were affordable! Another one was at a school where the actives lived on floors like at Auburn plus there was a Panhellenic House where you could live that had members from all the sororities!

Arkansas is supportive of expansion but has not, as of yet, made any significant gestures to help with this problem. I think anything that the administration could do would be a plus. Hats off to Alabama for giving land. I was not aware of that.

Actually you're pretty spot on. Unfortunately many NPCs still put immense pressure on their Icky Iota chapters to make quota and reach total during formal recruitment. Of course, you want to encourage such chapters to do their best in FR. I assume it's partly for financial reasons; I hope they are more patient with II chapters on unhoused campuses.

Funny thing at Arkansas, when AOII colonized, the new members and parents (oh mylanta, the parents) were OBSESSED with the plans for the house. There was intense pressure for the house to be completed and to be a certain style, etc. Then when it came time to get girls to live in it, we really struggled to fill it. We had plenty of members, and those members insisted that the house exist, but they were simply accustomed to their own bedrooms, walk-in closets, bathrooms, etc. They would not consider communal living. The risks at Arkansas are staggering. I don't blame other NPCs for steering clear.

Do you think this is because they didn't all move in sophomore year like members of the other sororities, and they got used to living out of the dorms and in their own apartments? Or do all the sororities have trouble getting members to live in?
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Probably the former. I think it's harder to go from your own apartment (with no restrictions on boys and booze) to the srat house than to go from the dorms, which is a much more similar experience. In my chapter, we never had any problem filling the house, there were always girls dying to live in.

We are talking of freshman primarily, who would be transitioning straight from the dorms. And we built our house suite style so there is a lot less "sharing" than other houses on campus.

Other sororities on campus may not have had as many beds to fill as AOII does because they don't need as many to pay their mortagages.

It is surprising, Irish, that you are struggling to get girls to live in. Has this improved over the years that the house has been finished? I really hope so! I cannot speak for all of the houses but ours has a waiting list to get in and when the move in list is posted in the spring, it always causes major angst and heartache. We sleep 94.

The house is full now, but it was a real struggle at first. We actually had several parents who had bought regular family homes for their kids to live in during college. The kid gets a couple of roommates to help with the mortgage payment, the parents get a tax break, and daughter gets to have a pet (this was actually a huge problem - students with pets), a walk-in closet, her own bathroom, etc. Considering the cost of dorms on campus (the good dorms) it is a financial no-brainer for parents. Not the college or sorority experience I would want, but it's hard to convince parents otherwise.

This is the same issue at Ole Miss. The sorority houses always end up being full but it can be like pulling teeth to get full. So many kids have their own condo or house so it can be hard to get the house full. Most of the parents purchase the condo/house before their child even comes to college. So it is not like they knew their daughter would have requirements to live in her sorority house! We have had some parents who will pay both their condo mortgages and for their daughter to live in the house. I think all 9 sororities at Ole Miss require at least their officers and cabinet to live in the house. Then after that they have different requirements to make their house full. I know when AOII at Ole Miss was developing the plans to add on to their house in 2005 we talked about adding new "suites" for the officers. However, we felt it wouldn't be in the best long term interest to add more bed spaces. Granted the chapter has double, if not tripled, in size. It would make it harder to keep it full all year round. There are many more housing options now in small college towns like Oxford, MS. So believe it or not everyone is competing to have their bed spaces occupied/leased!

gee ess, at what campus do you advise?

I am really shocked to hear that any sorority house at Ole Miss would have trouble filling up. All of them, especially the ones on Sorority Row, blew me away, and I didn't even see the insides. Shared bathrooms or not, I'll move down there and move in!
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Roxanne69

Yes like Katherine said, many parents buy the home before they know if their daughter will pledge a sorority. The nice new dorm on campus is currently charging over $7,000 for a room (not including a meal plan) so parents see that and decide the money is better spent on a mortgage.

Wow, that is high! The newest dorms at Ole Miss charge about $4500-$5000 a school year. I do wonder if the trend to live on campus will change. Ole Miss is building 3 new dorms in the next couple of years. So I wonder if that will help to encourage more students to stay on campus longer.

Currently, most sororities (not all) do require that their sophomores live on a sorority floor in one of the dorms if they aren't living in their house. However this coming school year, because of old dorms being torn down and the new ones not built yet, those sophomore sorority women will have to live off-campus or somewhere else on campus. So, that will throw another twist in the living requirements for sororities at Ole Miss. I have always had the mentalitliy, I don't care where they live as long as the house is full and rent is paid! :D

Oh and keeping your sophomores on campus I think does have a huge positive! It totally helps with recruiting! When you have 80 pledge sisters occupying an entire floor in one of the women's dorms that makes a statement!

I'd be thrilled with $7000 a year. We paid slightly over $9000 at University of Oregon for a room slightly larger than my walk in closet which daughter shared with a roommate. The room had a sink (bathrooms/showers shared by the hall) and included 19 meals a week. The deluxe singles run upwards of $15,000.

By contrast we pay around $8000 (food included) for an almost new 3 floor townhouse she shares with 3 other girls about 3 blocks off campus. She's actually closer to most of her classes there.

Her sorority house runs between $5000 and $7000 (they just remodeled, so I think it is probably around $6000 something), which includes food. It's 1/2 a block from the library and most of her classes. Needless to say, given the option - there is no problem getting girls to live in.

That is what my mom did-she purchased a townhome and my roommate paid the mortgage. I sold it for a profit once I graduated and mom got a tax break. Property was cheap in College Station-if it had been Austin this would not have happened as property is very expensive in this town.

This is why I wonder why the lodge concept has never been big. You have a smaller number of women living in to help pay the mortgage/rent, but still have the meeting and storage rooms. It can be a privilege to live there, rather a requirement. Students can have more of a choice.

I thought huge houses to have to fill, heat and cool would die out, but that has not been the case.

One of these days, enrollments will drop...and/or going Greek will NOT be a big deal, and we may regret building the mansions. Things always go in cycles. You have to be prepared for the bad times, too.

My folks bought my place and it worked out nicely for all of us. You probably have to plunk down more money up front in Austin than most places, but the price of real estate around campus continues to increase, so it's a good bet you'll still make money off the deal.