Actually, the point we were making is that you may get out in the real world and discover some of your brothers are gay.

I don't doubt that you would never vote to admit a gay member. Depending on your org you may be within your rights to do that, even. But there are gay members in elite southern fraternities who will come out after graduation. I've seen it many times.

This is interesting because there are homosexuals across the spectrum.

Liberal, radical, conservative, Democrat, Republican, Independent...yada yada yada....of course it is more difficult to be an out of the closet homosexual if you're pushing for traditional marriage, which can explain why Conservative Republicans get outted by the media.

There are flamboyant and stereotypical heterosexuals just as there are flamboyant and stereotypical homosexuals. There are heterosexuals who try to force their lifestyle and viewpoints on everyone else and there are homosexuals who do the same.

Despite that fact, heterosexuals don't get pigeon holed and neither should homosexuals. Someone who has truly been exposed to the diversity of opinions held by people of different sexual orientations and masculinities-femininities will understand that.

Yep and there are gay members of elite southern fraternities and sororities who are/were very out of the closet as an undergraduate. :)

I have no idea what the "rights" are in my organization, but I don't recall that it ever made a difference.

I'm sure there are gay guys in southern fraternities. If I had a fraternity brother who turned out to be gay, would I suddenly hate him? No of course not (unless I hated him in the fraternity). But would I suddenly want to hang out with him and his boyfriend? No, I'd feel the same way I'd feel if he acted like that in undergrad.

I don't think gay people are a plague I can't be around, so it doesn't mean anything that someone in the closet was a normal brother. But an openly gay lifestyle clashes with the predominate values (and interests---girls) of my fraternity.

This is only partially responsive to you, DST.

I've been around a fairly substantial number of gay people, at least for folks like me. Meaning that I've worked with them, gone to school with them, was friendly/hated them on some social level, not simply that I knew somebody around was gay. All but one were liberal. A few of them I genuinely liked, and a few were "flamboyant" and made me feel constantly uncomfortable.

Yet, despite knowing a fair number of gay people and having some gay people I'd gladly call friends, their attraction to the opposite sex still grosses me out. I don't loathe them, I don't muster up some distaste, it just naturally weirds me out. So why then would someone want to live either A) in a situation where most other people in the fraternity disapprove and are repulsed by your lifestyle or B) in a situation where they have to act covertly?

Shinerbock;
I do understand and respect your comment as your current POV on this board.
So please do not take this the wrong way.
I do have gay and lesbian friends. As I posted, a few of my Brothers came out after I graduated. And as my group of associates, acquaintances, and friends grow after school, I found that several of them were gay as well.
My fiancé has family and friends who are gay.
And they are not "making love" in front of me. We hang out. Any physical "action" is what you would see between friends. Or between team members on a football or baseball team. Or even a Fraternity.
And just as I have no need to say or indicate in anyway what takes place between my fiancé and I in private, neither do they.
Just something to think about.
BTB a wedding that I was truly honored to be invited, bear witness to, and participate in was the wedding of my fiancés best friend from grad school and his boyfriend.

I thought it was pretty apparent that I'm well aware that gay people aren't affectionate with each other at all times. But what about when a guy in my fraternity gets a serious boyfriend? Are they just going to avoid the fraternity house? Doesn't seem like something they'd want to do. What about a date party? I'm not saying that gay acts are all that weirds me out, I'm saying gay relationships do. I don't look down on them because I find the participants inferior, they simply seem unnatural to me. I can be around people in a gay relationship if need be, but I'd really rather not.

Take a relatively calm (not overly affectionate) couple from my days in the fraternity. They're not constantly physical, but sometimes they might be, and that should be ok. But even more so, you can usually tell they're a couple even though they're not disgusting to be around, and two guys acting like a couple is simply awkward for most people I was in the fraternity with. It is weird to us in the fraternity, and I highly suspect it would be uncomfortable for the gay guy.

I'm sure you were honored to be a part of your friend's wedding. Actually, I'm sure they're probably both great individuals. But for me personally, it would have to be someone extremely dear to me for me to in any way participate. I'm not discounting the possibility, but I believe homosexuality is wrong, and therefore I'd be unlikely to participate in something like that. I of course would be concerned that my friend getting married/union-ed wouldn't respect that and it could cause problems, but he has his beliefs, and I have mine.

This is kind of off topic since I'm a woman in a sorority but, the president of my sorority is a lesbian and is actually dating another one of my sisters. (they were going out before joining). Yes, it was awkward when I first heard about it but they are not that obvious. I just recently had to tell 2 of my sisters that pledged with me. Just because somebody is gay or lesbian does not meant that they are going to make moves after you.

ABSOLUTELY........................................ .....THE BEST!!!!!! :)

Maybe you misunderstood me. Other people's sex lives is the last thing I want to know about.


I think you probably already knew this, but that does not describe me at all.

LOL, SEC. Some of your posts make me :eek: but I also tend to be a little tickled by your honesty and obvious self-awareness.

I agree with this. Oh, and the person who tried calling me Sally or nelly or whatever can go screw. I have a right to be on this board because I am in college and I wanna have a say. I understand what a fraternity is and I understand how "macho" its supposed to be. If I was in a fraternity, my boyfriend or whatever wouldn't be showing up, why would he? Its up to people how they feel anyway, I obviously can't stop what you feel. I would just like to see the day when you are in the position of being ridiculed for some reason and see how you respond. Also, I am not really politically active in any type of community i.e. the gay community because I don't think that just because I am homosexual, that I should be in any community. But, lets say hypothetically that I wanted to join a fraternity, would the fact I prefer men get me kicked out. Even if I didn't have a boyfriend or whatever and kept my sex life private.

The funny thing is, most people (mainly other men) are afraid of homosexuality because of what has been portrayed in the media, or by gossip. Did you even know that some gay men don't like or engage in anal sex? Did you know there are plenty of men out there who engage in homosexual acts in similar social circles to yours but clock themselves as straight? Do you know the amount of men who get paid to perform homosexual acts for money who say they are straight?!! You know very little by the looks of things. I am not effeminate buddy, sorry to rain on YOUR parade. I lift weights and I am not really interested in fashion or anything like that. I can be sensitive, but so what? I am young and inexperienced when it comes to some things in life.

Fraternities are obviously a very elitist, Republican type of organization. Sad really, because if you guys are Christians but still excluding people for small things like their sexuality, then you are fools. Jesus told us not to judge others but obviously you are still doing that. Its OK anyway, I will never meet any of you guys ever anyway, so its no skin off of my nose. You can feel the way you do, its your choice. But ask yourself a real question - what is it about homosexuality that makes you so nervous? I mean nervous enough to exclude another human being from your special, little organization. I don't allow people to make fun of me for preferring men, I have standards and I don't accept everything about the gay community either. Maybe one day I will join a fraternity or something similar, and I will keep my sexuality private... out of respect of others, not because I think its shameful. Thats only if all the straight guys don't go on about fucking tits and stuff like that all day because I would be mightily offended if I hear that shit, degrading women and all!

I actually agree with the not bringing your boyfriend into the fraternity thing, but is it OK to bring your girlfriend in really? I am not condemning you for your response, just want to hear what you have to say?

Define "judging." I don't think I'm a better person than a gay person. I don't think I'm a better Christian than a gay person. In my mind, it is one less sin I'm not committing, but I'm sure I make up for it, and I don't think being gay is more of a sin than any of the ones I commit consistently. But not judging doesn't mean accepting. Jesus loved and associated with people who sinned, but that doesn't mean he condoned their sins. Of course this probably doesn't mean anything to you because you don't believe homosexuality is a sin, but I do, so that is my take on this. So no, I don't think I'm judging you when I don't invite a gay person into my fraternity. If there is a kid who is a bad student, I probably wouldn't want him in my fraternity. That doesn't mean I won't associate with him, and it doesn't mean I think I'm better than he is. It means I don't think he's a good fit for this organization.

I'm not nervous about homosexuality. I have no idea why I am naturally repulsed by it, but I am, just the same. I also noticed you said "exclud[ing] another human being," and I don't get what you're saying here. We aren't excluding gay people from society. We're not saying you can't go to college, we're not saying you can't work here. We're saying it is unlikely you'll be a member of a fraternity, which in my situation, is analogous to a private social club. I wouldn't knowingly invite liberals to join my imaginary conservative club, and I'm not going to knowingly invite gay guys to join a group of similarly-minded straight guys (but one could be gay!!! I know, unlikely,doesn't matter anyway, good try). If we need to let gay people in because they're "human beings" then we should let everyone in, and thus, what the hell is the point of a fraternity. I can be around "everyone" by stepping outside my door.

I don't know, some people may be a lot more formalistic. I'm not talking about to chapter or other exclusively fraternity functions. I'm talking about sitting at the house and watching a game or going out with a bunch of brothers to the bar or to play golf. So sure, it is perfectly fine to bring a girlfriend to those functions. And I think it would be very awkward, for us and the gay person, if it was some unspoken rule that he can be in the fraternity, but he can't bring his S.O. around or out with us. Considering that may be a big part of his life, I have no idea why he'd want to join.

maybe you shouldn't join an organization where a significant portion of the membership vehemently disagrees with your lifestyle. you're joining them. they're not joining you.

Maybe you should shut up!
 

What lifestyle? My lifestyle is the same as yours except I prefer men! So if you prefer black women over white women, do you not have a lifestyle!?

no, it's not. you're delusional. and you're trying to join an organization where a significant portion of the membership disagrees with your lifestyle. and yes, that means they disagree with you liking men.

and i do prefer black women over white women. why would i join an organization where most of the membership would vilify me because of such? if you're so adamant in going against the grain, then you're gonna have to deal with the repurcussions of such action and thus should quit complaining. you know what you're getting into.

Pot calling the kettle black!
 

OK, so its ok for you to date black women and me not date a guy. It would have been funny to see you grow up in the 60's!

who said it wasn't ok? are you high, son?

and are you saying that me dating black women is like being gay? dumbest thing i've ever read on this board. and that's saying a lot.

people are entitled to be prejudiced. like i said, you're the one trying to join an organization where a good portion of the people in it find what you do disgusting. you don't see me rushing to join the klan, do you?

Okaaaaaay....

*******************

Anywho, aside from a few colleagues and associates, I do not have any friends or close associates who I know to be homosexual. So by no means am I saying that people have to go out of their way to be friends with anyone just because. At the same time, the "some of my best friends are gay" approach is funny just as the "some of my best friends are (insert some other minority group)."

DUH and that's why people usually have certain opinions.

You have your own image of fraternities based on stereotypes or what you've been exposed. People have their own image of homosexual men based on stereotypes or what they've been exposed. It's par for the course.

You came to GreekChat to pick people's brains and point the finger--and you're not even in a fraternity or admitting to considering joining one. :confused: I guess we all need our hobbies.

Buddy ol' pal. :)

Why would you join an organization that was inserting itself into every aspect of your life? I understand that hetero and homosexual are seen as different lifestyles to a lot of people. But when you take the biological sex and social gender aspects out of the equation, the average homosexual person who isn't flamboyant is arguably doing the same things as the average heterosexual person who isn't flamboyant.

Sure it is, when used the same way. I think that approach may actually hold some validity, when true, but it has become a crutch for white folks trying to avoid the "racist" label, most often.

I'm simply responding to your statement, which was "Despite that fact, heterosexuals don't get pigeon holed and neither should homosexuals. Someone who has truly been exposed to the diversity of opinions held by people of different sexual orientations and masculinities-femininities will understand that."

As someone who has been around what I consider to be a fair number of gay people, I find that though it is incorrect to pigeon hole them, they're a smaller group with some common concerns, so they certainly tend to share some common characteristics. My assumptions and experience indicate this, and though not infallible, I think it is reasonable to believe this is reality. So while saying "my fraternity believes this, and gay people all believe that, so we're not gonna take gay people" is based on some false assumptions, it is also quite possibly pretty accurate in effect.

As with my first response, this wasn't necessarily tailored to your post, but your assertions seem tangentially related to the common "but there may be black/gay/whatever people who are just like your fraternity" argument, so I included that in my reply.

of course not. anal sex and head is fundamentally the same act whether it be between a >insert any combo of man and woman<. taking out the social gender aspect and you just sex.

that being said, many heterosexual men are disgusted with homosexual sex. that doesn't make them homo phobes or even closet gays. they're just disgusted with it. i personally find it repulsing. i wouldn't vote in an openly gay member. i'm sure homosexuals know this prior to joining. and if they think that the world is a big kumbaya camp fire with everyone holding hands, they have another thing coming. right, wrong, whatever. that's how it is.

like i said, if this fool is so adamant about joining a fraternity, he/she/shim better know that many of hers/his/shims brothers will disagree with it and not want to be around it. nature of the beast, whether or not he/she/shim wants to accept it. it's their decision whether or not they choose membership. in fact, it's very similar to a non>insert race< joining a predmoninantly >insert race<GLO.

now come over.

The only part of my post that was in direct reference to you was the "Okaaaaaay...."

Like I said, tangential. I'm not really worried who it was directed to, it just brought up other things I wanted to talk about.

Yeah well since you kept giving me a play-by-play of your responses, I wanted to let you know.

And so you have.

You just said that you are NOT in a Fraternity.
This IS a board for members, and interested parties, of GLO's.
I need my morning coffee real bad now.....

There's a LOT of dating and hooking up, both hetero and homo, that goes on in many Alpha Phi Omega chapters that I know of. Usually when someone breaks up, one person of the past couple almost always drops out of the fraternity. The person who has the most popularity within the chapter usually does a lot of shit talking about the ex and try to get all of the members to turn on them. It can get really nasty. I'm guessing the same thing would happen to members who date and break up in single-sex social fraternities and sororities.

It's an easy rule to live with b/c our sorority doesn't have a house :p

It does get me into trouble every now and then, but unfortunately for many, not enough to shut me up.

Buddy, homosexuality is a sin according to the bible....or did you overlook that whole part about marriage, sex, what is natural, etc. etc. I'm certainly not saying I'm completely free of sins, but you can't sit here and call people "fools" for not being openly accepting of homosexuals if, in fact, they are Christians.

I can't speak for anyone else, but homosexuality doesn't make me "nervous" at all. I wouldn't be voting against you being in my house out of fear or something similar. I would be voting against you because the probability of you meshing well with our group of guys is probably very small. The fact that homosexuality is something that many, many members of our house morally object to is going to play a role as well.

On a similar note, I hate how anyone that doesn't openly embrace a homosexual lifestyle is labeled as "homophobic". There's a huge difference between fearing something and being disgusted by it. Insinuating that someone who dislikes homosexuals has some sort of moral flaw is essentially playing the same card as people who dislike homosexuals because they view it as immoral. Get off your high horse. You can be gay all you want, but not in my fraternity, my church, or my circle of friends.

In the past week or so the campus newspaper has been trying to make a big issue of gay faculty wanting health benefits for their partners. Regardless of whether the majority of students want this (which is up for debate), its completely outside the jurisdiction of the school. The university if funded by the Texas State legislature who have final say over basically everything. If the school tries to make an issue of this and fight the legislature its just going to hurt the school (not that the gay community cares about that).

If you read the newspaper regularly, you'd realize it's not gay faculty who've been pushing for it as much as heterosexual grad students (specifically one, who decided to write a proposal on this) who are politically aware. The was the one faculty member who in Middle Eastern Studies (I think) who did the hunger strike last semester to raise awareness of the issue and the campaign has been proposed & carried by grad students ever since. The article in the Texan on Friday focused on faculty perspectives but the initial move to have a vote on this in the senate of college councils was led by grad students.

I'm not really sure how it is going to hurt the school. Our current policy is already hurting us in terms of faculty recruitment and retention. That said, I'm also not sure how successful the campaign can be given the strictures put on by the legislature.

My pledge ed (OPhiA) was a lesbian. No one cared. But that was the nature of our particular chapter.

If you're going to join an organization where your [insert issue - gender, race, disability, religion, whatever the heck your deal is - here] is going to raise eyebrows, plus some tempers, then you just need to accept that upfront and go in aware and prepared to handle it. If you CANNOT HANDLE IT, then either choose another organization or stay away entirely. None of us needs your whiny drama.

after making my way through 6 pages of this thread, i've concluded that nothing of substance has been posted since page 2. its a shame i cant have the last 10 minutes of my life back.