In response to the411, I think things should stay the way it is right now. Only because it seems like the only way to protect the Fraternity or Sorority from lawsuits and shifts the blame, legally, on the individual members who choose to go againts the policies set out by each organization.

To DoggyStyle82, Well knowing how much shame and ridicule I will receive from doing the MIP, I most likely will not pledge a greek-lettered organization. Good news for you.

I dont believe changing things again will work either. You can end, revamp, change the laws, reinstitute the pledge process all you want. When you finally formulate a process that is pleasing to everyone, you will still have those "exceptions" who will haze and beat the sh*& out of a line. Yes you can have a graduate representative there, but he/she cannot be there at all times and there may even be a "bad" graduate representative who's down with the beat down.

I know some of you will say, well punish those who haze, but, thats dealing with the problem after the fact. You can punish a member through suspension or expulsion, but you are still left with a pledgee who is physical hurt or, well, dead.

much respect...

i actually think that the 411's examples of how MIP can be revamped and reshaped to include not only the new system but aspects of the old system is basically showing how those who are "mad hazers" can be eliminated.

the thing that seems to have happened is that with the inception of MIP those who are in the organization (strictly my opinion and not direct knowledge considering i'm not a member of any GLO) have felt that they have no control over the process. the process that many have respected over time has been lost due to someone elses grave errors. those folx who were involved in the deaths and serious injuries of pledges were not trained in the ways of pledging vs. hazing.

there is my brotha a difference.

hazing will never unify but pledging always does!

if there was a training session put in place for greeks before they take on a line. if the guidelines are set before them...in black and white....with no exceptions. and the session that explains the difference between hazing and pledging is outlined in detail and taking with great care to make everyone involved completely aware of the details then there will most likely be fewer deaths and injuries.
of course the process that is put forth must involve, as i said before, aspects of the "old skool" way and the MIP.

has the MIP reduced deaths? maybe. But has the MIP encouraged brother/sisterhood...i would argue not really. even people who are sorely against the "old" way are quick to shout that they were initiated before intake.

it is sad Hudson...but renegades exist in every organization and organized movement. no matter how many times you say "don't do that" some fool will do it anyway. but that is when it is up to the national organization to make sure that person is held accountable for their actions. and i would even argue that if a melding of "old skool" and MIP were made the members of the organization would be more likely to discipline a renegade on their own.

i would offer you (Hudson) a really great site that discusses the reasons for pledging. in my opinion it is one of the best sources that i have read that outlines the ancient inception of a "pledge process". The Temple of Blue
for me the difference became crystal clear. my understanding of, marching in formation, learning understanding embracing the history of an organization through training sessions, wearing matching outfits, going through the final intense week that is often referred to as "hell week" etc., was completely enhanced.

it is true that there are problems with the current system. and admittedly because there was seemingly no limit on the "old skool" way of things there were problems as well. but if there was some revamping of a system that for many is remembered with the kind of love one can only feel for family...then the deaths and the injuries will cease.

peace

I have read through most of the threads. I must say that I am proud of everyone on this site for speaking their mind and having the guts to say all of this on the internet.

My question is did the Omegas and Deltas or any of NPHC for that matter, get their rights back to have a "pledge process" again or is this a "hypothetical topic?" I ask because in my sorority we are put on moritorium for even saying the word "Pledging" (first hand experience.) I will understand if you can not answer but I just thought I would ask.

I'm not a member but I thought I could share a story. My father is a member of a fraternity. He pledge in the sixties and without going into details he did say that his process was physical but not brutal. He went on to say that he did become disturbed by the amount of violence that seems to have increased over the years from lines he has witnessed.He mentioned something about the younger generation become more susceptible to committ violence today. What I'm trying to say that even though you may not agree with MIP, maybe its a blessing in disguise and you may not even realize it.

PLAINJANE:

Eveyones opinion is relative. I'm sure members 20 years before your father may have thought his pledge experience to be "excessive". The point is, is that there should be some define-able middle ground and not the elimination of time honored traditions and legitimate processes. As I have stated before, the increase in hazing has been excaserbated by intake, not muted.

Thats true too.

First, I would like to give respect to anyone that had the heart to become greek (regardless of how). But, I do understand the animosity stemming from the differences of the way some becomes a member. However, I do not believe anyone should be criticized. Once you become a member (i.e. family) of a greek organization, you are just that . . . family. A brother or sister. Not a step-sister or step-brother so to speak. I am not greek, but I am seeking my membership through grad chapter. And I have definitely been "told" about how I should have pledged. I have my reasons just like everyone else does. I however, have faith and trust in the greek community and believe that regardless of how someone is admitted that person is thoroughly investigated. To criticize because of the way they were admitted only criticizes the organizations. Why? If someone is paper or pledge . . . you . . . the greek still has to make the final decision as to whether that person becomes part of your family.

Coleman Love to my Bruhs, Big OO-OOP to my Sorors...I guess my question or concern is how do we as Sorors, and Bruhs bridge the gap amongst ourselves? I mean, I PLEDGED alum chapter. Some of the processes might have changed in accordance with MIP but nonetheless, the things I keep hearing "old heads" saying they went through, I did too. And it hurts anytime someone (Soror or other Greek) consistently perpetuates the myth that those who cross through MIP are "not real" or "paper". I know this topic is probably discussed til people are blue in the face, but if we want progression collectively, we need to stand united in the BOND of Delta (Omega). Instead of making distinctions about who's real or not on the basis of intake, turn instead and look at who's financial. Look at who is still getting up at 5am for service projects and leading by example. Spend time trying to reactivate the inactive to the goals of our orgs. How do I feel about the MIP? I can only speak for what I experienced and I know that for a lifetime, my ls's and myself will be able to recall our shared trek to Deltahood and reflect on our humbling experiences. And that (as MasterCard states) is priceless. But if revamping the intake process is what it takes to get us on one accord as far as accepting one another as equals within our OWN orgs, I'm all for it, but I don't think that is as necessary as it is just for some to face the the wo(man) in the mirror and broaden their way of thinking. Just my .13 cents.

------------------
"To DST, I will forever and always be true"

Hello
I am not greek merely an aspirant. But, I want to know if the greek world is so agaisnt, the MIP, and some members may not show "love" those who come in the "new school" was, are those interested persons supposed to not attempt entrance into the organization of their dreams, because of the MIP. Are those persons supposed to MAKE their BSs and BBs bring them in "ol skool". The persons interested have no control over the process, so why should they be treated any differently? I understand the merit of the "Ol Skool" methods, that is where you gain your sense of loyalty to the organization and to your future fellow members, and that process is what differentiates the nine organizations, but can a mere interestee due about the protocol?

What would be a good compromise?

I know this topic has been hashed to death, but let me put my 11 in.....

Whether you pledge Que or come into Omega via MIP....you will pledge. Let me explain, say a prospective starts intake on a Sunday and is made a member the following Saturday. As soon as he puts on that Que 'nalia, or as soon as he lets out a ROOO in public.... someone will be in his grill chargin' him. Lord help him if he doesn't display his Principles or know his info. It's SOOO HARD to be Omega! He will earn those letters and constantly prove he deserves to wear them, or else he'll be stripped of them, as well as his pride. Omega men are brave and courageous men who fear no one or nothing but God Himself.

So, MIP can come in if they want, but if they reach for their financial card when a bruh is challenging them, he'll be receiving some uplift. Period. It's that simple. There are many ways TO Omega, but only one way INTO Omega....blood, sweat, and tears.

I will shut up after I say this: I was always told "It's harder to BE a bruh than it is to BECOME a bruh." And how true that rings. Think about this, you can't haze a member, only a prospective. So once you're in, whatcha gonna do?

Omega is NOT a violent frat. It wasn't founded on that and it doesn't condone it. HOWEVER, whether you came in MIP or pledged, don't disrespect your self or the frat by not exemplifying the qualities of an Omega man and not knowing detailed information on the very organization that you CHOSE to join. IT doesn't end when you cross the sands to Omega... it's just the beginning... PLEASE, whoever you are, don't come into this frat lukewarm and not ready to work.

TRUST ME, the road INTO Omega is HARD. No ifs, ands, or buts, about it. Be out or stay home...the choice is yours. Because as soon as you hit door, them tenacious porch dogs will get ta barkin'....know enough to avoid the bite.

ROOOOOOO


------------------
T.J.
Da Nasty Lone Dog
1-Phi Omicron-SMR '00

Well said soror!

I like you, Lone Dog! You a-ight wit me!

OOP-ROO!

And I'm Out!



------------------
Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.
Pi Kappa, SP97
#3 of QUINTESSENCE

I just wanted to reply real quick:
I do NOT think someone who didn't pledge can pledge someone else. If you did not pledge, you can only IMAGINE what a pledge process should be...or you can only act on what you see or hear from others. This is how many chapters get in trouble...you can't do to others what was not done to you---chances are, you will take it too far and completely screw something up and/or the process will be a weak immitation.
If you do not have a COMPLETE view of pledging, and just listen to what others say, you will have no clue. As we all know, EVERYONE thinks they pledged, you will rarely find a Greek who says they didn't pledge---yes, more than half of them are lying, but....
If members of a chapter are anti-pledging, it is almost impossible for others to try to step in. Not pledging, or never being afforded the opportunity to pledge, are completely different from being "anti-pledging." *It's a shame, but we can't save the world*
Part of what MIP was trying to get rid of was the ridicule of newly inducted members who are made to feel as they skated or didn't pledge---to make processes more uniform---and cut down on hospital visits, too I guess. This isn't the remedy---but, this was part of the intention. Alright, enough rambling for Chaos.

Manhood
 

Though I don't mean to rehash an old topic, I have to put in my two cents worth; As someone peering on the outside in, I think I have some pertinent thoughts on the matter.
While surfing, I read about an issue concerning one of the Divine Nine orgs. The fraternity had been suspended for "hazing"; upon reinstatement of the charter, the Faculty Advisor oversaw the Intake process of a couple of new undergrads with high GPAs. Most of you can guess what happened next.
Of course, the old heads had crossed a couple guys underground.
They went via MIP too. Now, you had a fraternity with some pledging, and others who were MIP'd. You guys can only guess at the friction caused.
It all came to a head when a couple of the "reals" accosted a "paper" and tore his naila off his back - in public! The two "reals" were then kicked out of the frat for disrespecting a fellow member in public.
Most of you probably have heard of this story; some may even have seen this played out on your respective yards. It is a sad state of affairs.
I am not going to argue the merits of pledging vs Intake; however I will say that pledging can be a safe process. A little hardship never hurt anybody. I went to a military school overseas, and the rites of passage to seniority were rigorous. Straight hazing. We hated it, but the bonds live forever.
Now, when people die during pleging, we have to wonder if we've gone too far, and we shouldn't have to wonder too long.
At my school, what happened above is about to replayed almost scene to scene. We are about to reactivate one of our orgs, and the word is that some men have already been through a pledge process a couple of years previously.
I don't know if it not getting respect for reasons we don't have control over is worth it. Am I wrong for seriously not considering exhibiting interest for these reasons? Would you join an organization if knew there were underground pledges, and you had to do MIP? Am I being overly realistic?

I know portions of this thread are old, but I had to comment on a couple of points - first the comment that hundreds of thousands of greeks were made each year with few incidents is RIDICULOUS - there are only a few hundred thousand greeks around, so how do you figure that so many were being made annually without serious incident. Another issue is that the dawn of MIP was not the demise of the pledge process - it was gradulally being degraded and bastardized - that was the biggest nail in the coffin in my opinion. Finally, I would love a process that was longer and slightly more challenging and open than the current three weeks, but I don't see it happening any time soon. My biggest complaint about MIP is the ridiculously large "lines" that are being made at the collegiate and alumnae level; as well as the alumnae chapters that seem to use intake as a biennial fundraiser, with no goal of or effort towards membership development. There are just too many people who have letters on their chest, but nothing in their hearts and you can't even really call them check writers because they don't even stay financial. I also think that it should be easier for a chapter to decline someone during the process as it is easier to be accepted for intake (relatively speaking).

Another issue is that the dawn of MIP was not the demise of the pledge process - it was gradulally being degraded and bastardized - that was the biggest nail in the coffin in my opinion. Finally, I would love a process that was longer and slightly more challenging and open than the current three weeks, but I don't see it happening any time soon. My biggest complaint about MIP is the ridiculously large "lines" that are being made at the collegiate and alumnae level; as well as the alumnae chapters that seem to use intake as a biennial fundraiser, with no goal of or effort towards membership development. There are just too many people who have letters on their chest, but nothing in their hearts and you can't even really call them check writers because they don't even stay financial.


I agree with your comment, and wish some changes could be made. But, as I detailed earlier, the conflicts continue.

Crucial, forgive me, but I didn't do the quote thing proprerly, so part of your post may seem like mine. My bad... didn't mean to plagrialize! LOL!!!

I was including white greeks as well, but you're right, it should be thousands.

I see it too.
 

Wazzup Doggy, and the rest of yall.

I feel what you sayin' about the "new wave" greek attitude. I crossed undergrad "in the 80s"; and I see the difference in the way these younguns' think too. That's the way it is if they're made by people without purpose, or if they ain't "made" at all.

Re: I see it too.
 

Thanks for the visit OA. Being that we are contemporaries, we share many of the same viewpoints. Recent events continue to reveal the truth in our sentiments.

Interesting topic..... wish I had been around when the bulk of the posting was taking place.
Well, have a seat and get comfortable....I got a lot on my mind:

First I have a question....
Does ANYBODY, ANYBODY AT ALL, know someone who has said, "Yeah, I'm a paper soror/frat."??? I haven't been in the frat for long, just under two years, but I have never heard anyone from any organization admit to it. MIP has been in place for over ten years now, yet there is not one paper frat or soror to be found. YEAH RIGHT! If I struck a cord with you, don't lie about your process...that's one sure way to be thought of as suspect, amongst other things. Bruhs like to call it cat....

Secondly, I pledged at a grad chapter. Now my pledge experience was much different from an undergrad's. I was pledged by people who had wives, kids, bills, and jobs to be concerned about. Their scope of responsibility extended far beyond going to class and spending the rest of their time "making lines." HOWEVER, it wasn't easy. I can promise you that I was "in the process" longer than 98% of folks. I didn't have the advantage of line brothers to sustain me because they all quit, and I was the only one to cross. Blood, sweat, and tears??? I know them very well. But as soon as people hear grad chapter...they think paper. And I am an adamant proponent of the fact that the two are not synomous. (easy bruh...stop venting...)

Lastly, I can't speak for any other org, but as I was always taught, "It's easier to become a bruh, than it is to be a bruh." If you came in paper, you're not home free..... by the definition of hazing, you can't haze a member, only a prosepective. So what are you gonna do once you're in, and the heat gets turned up? If you pledged, you'll know what to do, if not....then you'll learn.

I road-tripped two days after I crossed...a thousand miles away from my chapter, and I went alone......no brand, no financial card...just me and my process..... IT GOT HOT...It was supposed to, I was a neo. BUT at the end of the night, bruhs were buying me drinks at a club and setting me out. LIKE THEY SHOULD! If it were a "weekend-wonder" in my shoes that night????? Five words for ya...the Cardinal Principle of UPLIFT.

The moral of the story is.... if you long to be a real and true member of your organization, then become one. Regardless of how you are brought in, the hardest part isn't the way you came in, but what you do once you're in. And real members of your organization will teach you all you need to know to be a contributing element and build bridges of your own. BUT, it won't be easy.... and it ain't supposed to be. Anything worth having is worth some inconvenience and work. And if you don't agree.... don't come to Omega, nor any other of the orgs in the NPHC, because workers is what we all need, not folks who take the easy route in all they do.

enough of my rambling......
ROOOOOOOO

Amen!
 

I am a member of another NPHC fraternity (Iota Phi Theta), but I feel what you said Lone Dog COMPLETELY. We need to continue to educate and be upstanding members of our communities. How can we be when we discredit members of our community who are trying to meet common goals? (that stands for brothers and sisters in all organizations both amongst their own and in relation to their interaction with other organizations)

To all viewers: Stand with pride and honor your founders in a manner befitting your organization.

And Lone Dog, men of Iota echo your statement with our own.....

"It takes a few weeks to pledge, but it takes a lifetime to be a brother"

That phrase is heard time and time again within the Brotherhood of Iota Phi Theta and it is one of our rallying points. Although it is slightly outdated by the fact that Iota Phi Theta has moved away from "pledging" to a "Brotherhood Intake Process", the spirit is still the same. Quite simply, the process you undergo before becoming a Brother is secondary to the responsibility you accept once you become a Brother.

*taken from the Iota Phi Theta National Website*


Much luv and God bless Lone Dog, Omega Psi Phi, and all GLO's doing something positive for their communities, their members, and most importantly our Heavenly Father.

I am really feeling you, Frat! There are so many people who let their insecurity get the best of them and, as a result, feel the need to pretend to have undergone a difficult pledgeship. The outcome of this perpetration is ALWAYS negative for the pretenders. Fact is, if you didn't pledge, there's NO WAY you can pretend to have done so! What would you even know to pretend about? I say be true to yourself and prove yourself through the fruits of your labor as a member of the org.

Bruh, let me tell 'ya--from what I know, pledging Omega grad ain't even close to a cake-walk! Contrary to the popular notion--that it's easy to go grad--it's quite often those older (ultra-old-skool) Sorors/Frat who bring the loudest thunder! TRUST! They are the ones who pledged when pledging was a year-long, above ground, legal process! While they understand the rationale behind MIP, most are still advocates of traditional pledging and they know exactly what strategies to use to play and win the game, thus providing in-coming members with a process with which they will be PROUD and TIGHT and TRUE.

As for members teaching you what you need to know... well, unfortunately, there are some neos who don't seem to wanna to learn! I have pulled aside some MIP neos who told me straight up, "I got my letters now, so I don't care." I knew a "duly initiated member of DST" who didn't even know who I was talking about when I said Frank Coleman. :eek: When I tried to check her, she just said "Whatever!" :rolleyes: and walked away. I know greeks who are clueless as to what Invictus is and who have to desire to learn about it. What do we do about these folks? :confused:

You've touched on a major problem. There are SO FEW prospects who value the HARD way and SO MANY who want letters handed to them on a Gerber baby platter! That's where the REAL separation is! It's not about old skool vs. MIP, because we all know that s**t still goes on. The thing is, we're getting more and more folks who don't want to earn and work for their membership! What happens when you have a line of 10 and 3 are committed to EARNING their letters, but the other 7 are willing to scream "I was hazed" if a member so much as looks at 'em in an intimidating manner? I'll tell ya what happens-- you end up with a split line! That's not what brotherhood/sisterhood is aboue, which is why many orgs have so much drama to contend with. I must say that Omega is perhaps THE BEST example of family-hood in the Divine Nine, because, for the most part, fellas don't even step to the Bruhs without the expectation that Blood, Sweat, and Tears are required! The few who walk in expecting some Camp Snoopy activities usually just drop out and keep their mouths shut. Yes, there are exceptions--every org has someone who couldn't cut it, and instead of bowing out gracefully (or like a man), they run and tell and everything falls apart for everyone. Why ruin someone else's chances just because YOU can't stand the heat? Why get a chapter suspended just because YOU can't be apart of it? Personally, I have more respect for people who quit, but stay silent than I do for the quitters who squeal.

It's all just so crazy!

And I'm Out!

To the men of Omega, as I said to you my last week of PLEDGING, Good Evening most noble Greeks. As I approach 20 years of having 20 pearls I marvel about the changes in greekdom that have occured. One of the things I find most interesting is the fact an issue that I feel is most appropriately discussed within the confines of our respective organizations is held in an open forum. How can anyone who is not a member have an opinion about a process, that quite frankly, is none of their business. To my fellow Greeks, is the best way for a discussion regarding an issue that is near and dear to OUR HEARTS?

Just the thought of an almost old school AKA.

Jody, the difference is that people, GDIs got to see you pledge. Outsiders saw you walk in line, greet in public, dress alike, and they knew who was on line before the probate. There was no mystery, no shroud of secrecy about the process. Everyone knew what went on. Now, its anybodies guess as to what goes on and that is what causes problems. The confusion is within everyone. I do agree that non-greeks should not have an opinion on what does or does not constitute a "process", but an exchange of thoughts and ideas never hurt anyone. Personally, I don't care who is looking, I will always extol the virtues of my process (without revealing too much of course).

BTW, I have seen old school AKAs pledge. According to todays rules, Coretta Scott King could be brought up on hazing charges. I have seen Ivies marching in line, dressed in green tams and tan trench coats greet her in public, in unison, in front of an auditorium of 5000 people and then made to serenade her. Of course this was done in the 80's and was not considered hazing. See the confusion?

I feel where you're coming from, but I've gotta agree with my Bruh. I think it behooves GDIs to know what the conflict is. No one is divulging any details about their org's MIP, but rather, discussing the ISSUES that have derived from its implementation. Since we can't change the process, we are forced to just work with it or around it. Personally, I think people who are considering membership NEED to be aware of OUR feelings about MIP. I've found that people who aren't reading/hearing these discussions are pursuing membership with some highly unrealistic notions; as a result, they end up in 1 of 2 categories:

1. Their PRE-crossing experiences are shocking and traumatic :eek: (if they PLEDGED UG), leading to squealing, law suits, suspensions, negative publicity, etc...

OR

2. Their POST-crossing experiences are disappointing :( and/or maddening :mad: (if they only did MIP), resulting in shame, ignorance, split lines, ostracization, chapter type-casting, etc...

Fact is, everyone NEEDS to know what they might be getting into. No, we SHOULDN'T reveal classified info to non-members. But, unfortunately, the issue of PLEDGING vs MIP has been public knowledge for quite a while. Just look at the newspapers and the websites. At least we're discussing it from a member's personal perspective, rather than from the (usually biased) perspective of a journalist or offical who isn't in a BGLO at all.

And I'm Out.

Pledging
 

411, you hit the nail on the head. And so did e'rbody else. That's what I meant when I said "new wave ...". Most college students today are spoiled and want immediate gratification. They want it now; and they want it easy. Hell many of 'em wont even investigate the organizations to make sure they're trying to get into the one best for them. They just want to be down. And community service? They aint tryin' to hear that-let alone do it.

I think all of the orgs will pay a heavy price for the new way they're admitting new members. Alot of the college students(and some graduate people too) today WANT to be pledged; and will creep somewhere to get it done. Because of this, some of us that did it "back den" need to go back and give 'em a way to do it, with purpose and direction. Otherwise I think the orgs will begin to die.

Re: Pledging
 

SAD but TRUE. However, it eventually backfires on 'em. When they're partyin' & roadtrippin' and they either "can't hang" or they ask questions that only a PLEDGEE would know the answer to, it becomes obvious that they wear skates and meow. And, while many greeks who pledged may never say/do anything to make them feel uncomfortable or insecure, I assure you that those negative feelings will be in them anyway. When they're at a probate and the pledgees are reciting something that all PLEDGEES are expected to know when they're on line, they will feel like "Boo-Boo the Fool" when erry'body else starts reciting it along with 'em 'cuz they STILL remember it from when they pledged! And believe you me, I'm one of those folks who notices when someone is CLUELESS and ain't sayin' a word or don't even know the words to some of the most basic, universal chants out there.

On the up-side of that, I admire sorors who step to me and say, "Look, this is what my process was like, so I don't know about X, Y, or Z. Can you teach/tell me?" And like Original Ape said, there are people who want to PLEDGE and earn their letters. But of course, serious issues emerge when only 1 or 2 folks on a line fall into the latter category. When everyone else is itching to scream "HAZING!" if they get plucked with a rubberband, then there's gonna be a Split Line--and that's the total ANTITHESIS of what Brotherhood & Sisterhood represent. Nobody should want/prefer that in their chapter, I don't care what org you're in! That makes us all--the alleged elite-- look absolutely HORRIBLE. The drama and mess that results from this whole issue reflects very negatively on the entire black greek system AND on the black community as a whole. At this rate, we won't last.

Let me shut up. I'm getting way too emotional over this.

DoggyStyle, Soror Coretta never came to my university when I was on line but I pledged in the fall (during homecoming) so I know full well about serenading Sorors!

Geez, this is hard :( BUT, as members of the Divine Nine, I know we'll think of something and then complete our task.

It's good that we're having this dialogue ya'll because the topic needs to be discussed throughout the NPHC. Not just the pledge process, or intake, or whatever the hell you want to call it, but also the how people behave once they get in the org. I'll be the first to tell you that I don't care how you came in. If you came in 1960 and got your ass whipped and publicly humiliated...cool, let's talk. If you came in 2002 after a weekend history lesson...ok, fine, let's talk. BUT the million dollar question (to paraphrase Janet Jackson) : WHAT THE HELL HAVE YOU DONE LATELY??? Bruh, are you financial?? Bruh, did you vote at districts and the 'Clave?? Bruh, what have you done in the community??? Bruh, do you know the frat's mandated programs?? Do you contribute to their accomplishment?? BRUH! Are you living your Cardinal Principles???

Let's be real folks....the reason some, scratch that, ALL of our orgs have the potential to be non-existant in the next few decades is not because of hazing...it's not because of how you were brought in (because there are both MIP and old school who are inactive )... It's because members are not living up to the principles and ideals that their org was founded on ... plain and simple. If greeks did that, then all these other problems wouldn't exist, or would have an insignificant effect.

The principles are NOT a goal. I'll say that again... the founding principles (and ideals) are NOT goals. They are a WAY OF LIFE. For example, if you run into a Que, he will tell you that he UPHELD the Cardinals to get into the frat. But is he UPHOLDING them? That's two different questions. And every org has members like that. Yeah, you believe in scholarship, you were in college when you pledged, or had your degree and went grad. But scholarship is not a goal...it is a way of life. So are you pursuing another degree or certificate? Are you reading books? Are you tutoring students? Are you contribuitng to scholarship funds, either monetarily or by giving your time for a fundraiser? etc., etc., etc.
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR THE ORG LATELY? Besides, bring a lawsuit? Besides not paying dues? Besides not living up to principles? Besides not presenting a positive role model to the public? (don't get me wrong...BE OWT! but..in Ecclesiates, Solomon says there is a time and place for everything.) I mean, I know every org has a song where they sing "I'm working hard for XYZ." Ok, so you can sing or hop or step, but do you live the words you're singing??? NO? then you're CAT (these letters stand for something, the bruhs can feel me)

Team, I could go on for another 4 hours, but I'll spare ya'll my ranting. Bottom line is we need to instill in our members, and even prospectives looking to join our org, that they need not be so capricious in their decision to join. It is a lifetime committment. LIFETIME. That word in itself implies that you LIVE it ALL the TIME.
Ok, I'm done.....sh*t is deep

ROOO

Old Skool Pledging
 

My aunt pledged PLEDGED DST :D in '68
and my mom PLEDGED AKA :eek: :rolleyes: :( :confused: :mad: in '72.
When I look at their college yearbooks, I get SO jealous, sad, and sometimes even angry because I hate that things have changed so much. In their days, being a pledgee meant being a member of a 2nd most elite, prestigious club (with the 1st being the frat/sorority itself). The movie, School Daze, doesn't come CLOSE to depicting what that "openness" was like. Passers-by were in awe of the uniformity, discipline, and comraderie of the pledgees, and even more impressed with their ability to handle their business in the classroom and in the community through the organization of their pledge clubs. But now, "candidates" (not pledgees) can't even dress alike, much less serenade publicly! We can't even get our film developed for fear that some nosy Kodak processor will call the cops if they see pics of what looks like hazing!

As a little girl, I longed to experience what my AUNT did with her duckteam--to be decked from head to toe in matching outfits (a different one each day, for whatever weather, and with appropriate accessories) designated by my Big Sisters; to immediately jump in line when I spotted my LSs across the yard after class; to delete the words "I" and "me" completely from my vocabulary; to eat in unison, and carry bricks and goody boxes, etc... All that protocol and pageantry would give me and my LSs a feeling of ONE-NESS that would endure until death. That's what I expected it to be like when I went to college. Imagine my disappoinment...

And I'm Out!

I feel you 411....

I used to love to sit around with my dad (Que '75), and my mother (Delta '73) and listen to them relive their pledging days. I even got to see my dad try to remember a step they used to do on the yard at Shaw University.


That's trips me out because my dad has pictures of him on the yard in long johns dyed gold with a bedsheet dyed purple wrapped around him, covered in food, standing in the middle of campus all day singing "I Shall Not Moved." Now-a-days, that's your ass...suspension of the chapter and of yourself from the frat. What a shame.

But let's remember, this is a new generation. The kids in college now are two generations removed from struggle. Their biggest challenge now is to drive down the street without getting a ticket for being black. Back then, the general Black public was being fire-hosed down, attacked by police and their dogs, couldn;t even eat in restaurants or use the same toilets. They knew and lived hard times. So to go through adversity during pledging was accepted. Now you have kids who grow up with Nintendo and $100 sneakers. They aren't trying to hear about all that pledging stuff. On top of that, the ones doing the pledging are their peers, who are on a power trip. Those are the ones who bring the lawsuits. I'm telling you folks....don;t be suprised in the next few years if undergrad membership is totally done away with and our orgs become for professionals only.

Part of the answer is to change how we operate to support our clientele and potential people "hired" into the frat/soror. All of our orgs are businesses. Would you work at IBM if they beat your ass in order to get the job? Probably not. I KNOW, I KNOW...it's different. But not to these kids who are interested in our orgs now. After being on the inside for so long, we need to stop and think from their perspective. Because if there are no new members, there is no org. But, I know one thing, if we don't come up with an answer, the "bustas" will....and it will lead to less orgs in the NPHC.
ROOOO

Yep! Professionals and Honoraries only.


And I'm Out!

Interesting Perspective
 

Lone Dog,
I couldn't agree more with your statement, especially your closing remarks. Let me step out on limb with you, amidst fear of being cyber-stoned, to state that I think things are a whole lot easier now. When one considers what people two generations went thru, it is easy to see that we do have it quite easy.
As far as I am concerned, joining an elite organization demands special commitment. If and when I do decide to attempt pledging (oops, I mean undergo MIP), I say bring it on. Contrary to popular opinion, would-be newer members all don't want to "pay" our way in. I have met quite a few greeks, and for those made right, I am yet to find one to refer to their pledge process negatively. So, there just might be some good in a controlled, semi-above ground pledge process, where the men charged with making new men know the difference between pledging and murder. Still, I think prospects should not be held to blame for how they enter. It is only as easy as the organization lets it to be. As for me, if I wanted it easy, I'd join a dinner club.

Bruh, I disagree with you vehemently on this point. Omega is not a business!!!!! It is first and foremost a BROTHERHOOD!!! Now, this brotherhood has BUSINESS that it needs to handle, but I'm not recruiting members to sit on a board, handle finances, or be project leaders. I'm recruiting BROTHERS who can do those things, but realize that their first duty is to be a brother. If you choose a person who has true Omega qualities, you will find one that can handle business.

Times and people have changed throughout the 90 year history of Black Greekdom, but its only been the last 10 years that the entry process has changed (for the worse ) so that argument that we need to do something to attract this generation doesn't hold water. Membership is screwed up because we have become schizophrenic in our effort to please a hostile master instead of being true to ourselves. Because we have focused so much on what outsiders think of us (the press, lawyers, haters, white folks) we have compromised our way of life to satisfy others. When you do that, you lose your focus. Now we are businesses that look at memebership as revenue, not brothers or sisters. We microwave members and then expect them to appreciate something for a lifetime and worse, expect them to be treated as equals by those who went through Blood, Sweat, and Tears. The further God has brought you, the more you shout in Church. There is an inverse relationship between business and brotherhood. The more you have of one, the less you will have of the other. But that is the conundrum

I see your point Doggy....

but if BLGO's ain't business, why are they incorporated? If it isn't a business, why do they have lawyers to protect their interest and have copyright laws and things of that nature? Now the concept of Omega, the ideals of Omega ARE NOT a business, nor is it for sale. I agree with you there. Omega Psi Phi is a brotherhood, unfortunately, all the members don't practice it...and it's because of them that Omega, and the other BGLOs, have turned into a business. Just ask that white lawyer in MD who makes a living suing greeks...it's big business to him.

I did not mean to imply that Omega was founded to be a business. I am saying that it has turned into one because of the laws on hazing and the lawsuits and new procedures put in place to try and "remedy" the situation.

Regardless of the circumstances that got us to where we are, in order for the survival of our organizations, we have to attract new members, and re-activate the current members. We are working with a new set of rules, therefore, we must incorporate those rules into the recruitment of propspectives. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying that's the way it is. And until we put the action in motion to change it and are successful, that is the hand we're dealt. We can fold, or play through. I'm staying in the game.

ROOOO

Re: Interesting Perspective
 

But, that's JUST the problem--"those made right" aren't just doing MIP, but more the middle ground between it and old skool. MIP alone just can't/doesn't/won't cut it.

And, I'd have to say that, in MY opinion, things didn't start getting outta hand and uncontrolled (i.e. ultra-violent and almost deadly) until MIP was implemented! Look at the most major cases we're hearing about-- they're all very recent, wouldn't you agree? When lines go underground in an effort to maintain a traditional pledgeship, more s**t happens. And, because MIP is more than just an organizational mandate (i.e. anti-hazing is also university AND state law), our chapters are always under a microscope by SOMEBODY, making underground lines even less successful. Sure--the "candidates" may have sealed lips, but the GDIs, faculty, staff, dorm RA's, etc. are the ones who are saying: "Ya know Jerome has been lookin' kinda rough lately and his grades are slippin'. He must be pledging a frat and being hazed! I'm gonna report this!"

And, another sad reality is that a lot of orgs are bringing in some WEAK individuals--people who just want to belong, to be popular, and who have NO interest whatsoever in carrying out the mission and upholding the values of their organizations! When these kinds of people successfully undergo an underground pledgeship, their only focus becomes this: to make sure the next line goes through the same s**t they did. They don't care about the rationales and growth lessons behind the things they went through, because their focus was never really to have that org in their hearts; it was merely to have some letters on their chests! I know people who suffer from such chronic low self-esteem, that they are willing to endure ANYTHING AT ALL--from the most extreme physical to the most life-altering mental abuse--just to be able to say, "Now I'm somebody!" Imagine such a person being responsible for the intake of new members. Do you think they'd give a rat's a$$ about the severity or risks of their hazing actions? NO! They only care about that newfound "power" they have to put someone else through what they went through. Because of their low self-esteem (which never goes away, even with the letters), they need that "power" like a crackhead needs the rock. Those are the folks who go too far, and have ruined it for those of us who know how things should be done.

There has to be a PURPOSE behind the things that are done within either process--both pledging and MIP. Unfortunately, for some chapters, the secrecy of the underground process has resulted in beat-down sessions. But, what people don't know is that now HAZING (by definition of the orgs, the universities, and the states) encompasses SO MUCH MORE than physical activities! In Laymen's terms, HAZING is, quite simply: to require that a person do anything they MIGHT not be comfortable with as a means of joining an organization. Isn't it funny how this definition doesn't apply to sports, the military, marching bands, etc.? Hazing is saying: "Each of you need to wear the identical all-black outfit and shoes." What physical or mental abuse is involved in that? Yet, chapters whose "candidates" agree to do this are, by definition, having an underground line. If they did this publicly, eyebrows would be raised, conclusions drawn, and chapters investigated.

These days, because of MIP, chapters are getting reprimanded or suspended for the littlest, most trivial things (like not putting up signs about the rush/smoker) and most often, none of it qualifies as physical or mental abuse of any sort! Chapters are being told to "add" people to a line simply because someone went crying to nationals because they didn't make it. Many people in the latter category weren't even looked at by the members, much less touched, and yet they are allowed to jump on the wagon because nationals doesn't want the drama!

LONE DOG-- I agree with you about the lawyer thing. I know I'll catch hell for saying this, but, like it or not, most of our orgs have adopted MIP and anti-hazing policies for FINANCIAL PROTECTION ONLY--not because they actually give a damn about what happens to pledgees. They've adopted them in order to be protected in the COURT OF LAW and to avoid losing thousands of dollars from law suits defeats. If these orgs REALLY cared about the physical and mental HEALTH of the prospectives who pursue membership, "hazers" would automatically be in jail rather than merely suspended. Wouldn't you agree?

And I'm Out.

411,
Looking from the outside in, I have to say you hit the nail smack on the head. As for the definition of hazing, I have oft wondered at the same double standard you pointed out: if we indeed were to take hazing to it's politically correct level, those lawyers making careers out of suing frats and sororities could make a whole lot more loot focusing on the military. Now, that is where you'd find hazing at hit's finest (or worst).

I was slow to mention that the fatalities that we hear of seem to be very recent because I had only recently started to pay attention to black greek life these last couple of years. I do think it quite interesting that they do seem to coincide with the inception of MIP. Though far from an expert on intake history, I daresay MIP might have unwittingly helped birth the monster it was supposed to abort.

Since I have not been fortunate enough to have seen what you guys have, I'll decline the urge to say what I really believe MIP has done on a whole. I do say this: some things are cultural, and some things are unique to us as black people. I know things change with time, but some of the very things we now mock and do fight to do away with helped us to bond and survive when the chips were stacked against us. Lest we forget, we still deal with the remnants of those chips today. If we want to do away completely with a process, it better be for a very good reason.