See, you (and she) think she's holding on because she thinks he'll change. WRONG! She's holding on probably because 1) she has invested a decade in his sorry behind, and it sucks to feel like you've wasted all that time for nothing, 2) she doesn't want to be alone, or 3) she doesn't want to have to start all over in the game (especially after listening to the issues your girls are having).

These are the stupid things that some of us do, and we rationalize them. She probably thinks that every man is gonna be like him anyway, but there are many things about him that she loves, he's probably trained sexually and maybe socially (not that we train yall :halo:, lol), and she's not willing to let go of the GOOD in him. She's not willing to let go of the GOOD memories.

Your theory suggests that people don't change. See, we know that people do, because God changes people. Where women make mistakes is that instead of LEAVING him and allowing the two of you to GROW SEPARATELY, we want to grow together, and that's impossible. Because what we really hate is putting in all that work, then we get fed up, break up, the mofo changes, and goes and gets another woman. After all our hard work, lol. This is how we think, ok. And not all of us, and not necessarily me. And then, like Ashanti said, we regret all the stuff. Not to mention, we see the potential in a man that he can't see in himself. We are nurturers by nature, and of course, we want to bring out that potential. That's why she's praying, that's why we stay for so long. We want to be there to see your light shine, to let us know that all the BS was worth it.

See, I think a lot about this. You also have to take into account what type of relationships people see growing up. You tend to end up wanting (or accepting) what you've seen. Maybe she comes from a family where the women are in relationships for years with no commitment. You just never really know.

I'm not saying she's not wasting her time, I'm just trying to give you a little insight, just like you're doing with us. :)

Ok, that's cool Libra. Not trying to prove anything, just throwing my $1.99 in. No, my view of women is not colored at all. Just sucks that committment is becoming an outdated term in society.

VERY LONG....
 

Is there any wonder we are in a quandry regarding relationships? In reading both this thread as well as the other started by Aspire, this is what I see. You may not agree with any of this, I don’t even agree with all of it myself per se, but it’s simply food for thought:

-Very few people seem to have a clear understanding of what constitutes a successful relationship. Is the most important aspect love, respect, commonality, understanding? Do all these elements have to be place or best of two out of three? What is love, anyway? Do we overestimate its power and its place in a life-long relationship?

-Men and women appear to have both been painted into major corners that prohibit the nature progression of relationships. Men expect women to bring their “A” game, including all the things listed by Aspire PLUS sex and intimacy. Women expect men to bring THEIR “A” game, including the highest earning potential they can muster. None of us can possibly ever bring our “A” game, however, because we are all a work in progress. We can only bring the best game we have at the time. Have we been too influenced by the videos, novels, movies and television, which tell us the ideal relationship, and really the only one worth having, must include the perfect balance of the mind, body and soul? That if a person brings baggage, issues, personality flaws in a relationship that it’s best to keep searching, because there’s someone out there for us who has almost everything we’re looking for? Influenced by those who tell us that if we no longer love our mate and/or if we are no longer “happy,” then that signals the end of the relationship?

-The expectation and inclusion of sex has created an unfair balance in relationships. Used to be, a guy respected a woman for not “giving in.” He in fact only wanted to marry a woman who was reluctant to “give in.” While that may still be the case to some extent, most guys in “my” unscientific field poll did NOT think they would be willing to wait to be married to have sex with a woman they thought was “the one.” Generally it seems that women have accepted this fact. It used to be that guys were willing to wait for the “good girl” because there was a clear line between “bad girls” and “good girls.” That line is no longer so clear. There are plenty of shrill, nagging, unsupportive women who are celibate (either have always been or are now) and a bunch of top-self quality women a guy would take home to mamma who are not. In other words, why would they take a chance with Ms. Celibate if there are a bunch of dime pieces who bring what she does PLUS? For things to go back to the way they were in our parents’ days, the dime pieces and top-notch chicks would need to all keep their legs closed and the eyes on the prize—doesn’t look like that’s going to happen anytime soon. As the article pointed out, men have traditionally gotten married in part to guarantee instant sex on demand—remove that barrier, and what do you have…?

-We want all the I’s dotted and the T’s crossed before we “jump” into marriage. After all, isn’t that why the divorce rate is over 50%, and 25% of the rest are in terrible marriages? Or is it? Is getting to know someone for five years and living with them for two more any better a recipe for a successful union than dating someone exclusively for a year and then getting engaged? How can we ever be sure that “someone” is “THE ONE?” How can you “ever” be totally “ready” to be married, especially when we’re never really “ready” for other life-altering experiences?

-Looking for “love” in all the wrong places? Are we unsuccessful because we are barking up the wrong trees? Are the folks we are usually “attracted to” not really the folks we should be looking to for a lifelong pairing? Do we need to start looking for love in different packages than we thought they “should” come in? Do we select men/women over and over with the similar traits, that spelled disaster previously or better yet, do WE bring the same traits over and over into a relationship yet each time we expect different results?

Again, just some food for thought.

I wish they had an icon with TWO thumbs up...
 

OMG...This is quite possibly the best post EVER!

Shelacious, I am gonna step out on a very unpopular limb and agree with you, especially about the intimacy issue you raised. I await the downpour...
Like you said, it's not gonna happen soon.

Shelacious, very well said.

this is too overanalyzed
 

Mostly because it's based on a tenent that's incorrect.

There are plenty of good Black Men out there.. just as there are plenty of good Black Women out there.. ( y'all already know that.. cause chances are you've been in a friends wedding who has a good Man/Woman )...

(2). Men aren't afraid of marriage.. Men are afraid of Divorce...

Personally I just think its hilarious that this was conducted by a professor at RUTGERS!!! (my school...GO SCARLET KNIGHTS!) HEHEHEHEHE thought that was real funny. and we all know HUMANS are scared of committment. And its all thanks to society and how they make marriage seem like the old ball and chain and that you eventually will get divorced. this is totally not true. my parents have been happily married for over 30 years. my big sisters parents happily married for over 20 years. so some people do beat the odds. its all in how you view it. if you see marriage as that "ball and chain" then yes you will prob end up getting divorced. but if you see and treat marriage as a wonderful next step in life with a person that you love very much and you make a family together, then your def gonna stay happily married :) thats my opinion anyway.

Little known secret (ttt)
 

Ladies,

Do you want to know a secret about us men?

Contrary to popular belief, men are NOT, repeat, NOT afraid of committment with a woman. Men are afraid of the CONSEQUENCES that arise from committment (and it isn't that he has to be a one-woman man, either).

Simply put, a lot of men will not commit to a woman because oftentimes, by doing so would be to his detriment. The woman gets all of the benefits, while he gets all of the responsibilities and obligations. The risks are also very high for him, as he stands to lose all he has worked for. Everything.

The reason for this?

Feminism.





(or rather, feminism gone awry).

More later if you're interested.

Some random thoughts as an unreformed male.

A man I know walked up to me the other day and said: If you knew that 60 percent of all airline flights crashed . .would you fly?

I answered: no. Then he said, why would you get married?

And he is right. Also with a guy . . 60 percent of marriages fail and there is an enormous economic cost for the male.

That 60 percent statistic may be generous also because it includes a whole generation that didn't much divorce.

Some of the men i know that have divorced have lost 75 percent of their assets. Thats an expensive committment.

Playing the Devil's Advocate: Why should men want to do that? When we can live with you and treat you with love and affection as long as both parties are loving and affectionate?

A legal relationship like marriage only really kicks in when one or more parties no longer wants to be with the other one but stays anyway because of the marriage committment.

Seriously, religious considerations aside: Why should a man want to marry a women he loves when he already has a great relationship with her . . . after all as long as they love and adore each other they will want to be together.

And why should either party want to keep the other one in a relationship that person no longer wishes to be in?

OK, first of all: WHAT enormous economic cost? A very close friend and former professor of mine once told me that when a couple with children divorces, the wife becomes a single mother and the husband becomes a bachelor. Case in point: I just got divorced and my ex has a spanking brand new car while I drive the 10 yr old station wagon. He can go away every weekend that he's not working while I have to plan my getaways months in advance. His income is practically disposable while I'm paying ALL of the bills and going without things I want or having to put them on layaway!! Oh and did I mention that he's still on my health, dental, and vision insurance until I leave my job on Wednesday due to some screwed up paperwork? I mean, yeah, I'm about to move to FL and into a much better paying job and such but this nucca is COSTING me $$!! Not to mention that when were married, he got all the benefits while I worked my ass off!! So squash that!!

I've been married and divorced TWICE and you know what? I'd LOVE to get married again, but not for another 3-5 years!! I'm having a great time dating and just seeing what's out there. But to tell the truth and shame the devil, my heart belongs to my boo. Always has, always will. Oh I loved both of my ex hubbies in their own way, but I love my boo the best. Now, we've talked about the committment thing. And he IS scared. Not of committing to me by the way, but he's scared of failure. His parents are divorced, I've been divorced so I understand his fear and he's working on it. To further tell the truth, I'd be glad to live with him and his kids. I don't have to marry him. I mean, we've loved each other (near and afar) for the better part of 18 years. If we get married, good. If we don't, oh well. We make each other happy. Even when we're arguing over the price of a Ford Focus on The Price Is Right, we're happy.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...10/Soapbox.gif

To respond, in part, to Rain Man, I believe commitment imposes enormous responsibilities on both parties. It also offers tremendous benefits. Unfortunately, the divorce rate is sky high because, IMO, women get married with only the the benefits in mind and men are simply NOT READY for the responsibilities and obligations.

I don't know whether the ultimate problem is immaturity or lack of understanding and communication, but I think it has less to do with feminism and more to do with this culture of entitlement. Marriage requires sacrifice and selflessness, and those are unfamiliar terms in modern society.

I agree. I think that the prevalence of divorce is closely related to the me, me, me attitude that is prevalent in our society to an extent that it probably has never been before. I read in a book that if you want to get married to enrich your own life to not get married - but if you want to get married to enrich the life of your partner, then get married. In other words, if you are getting married to come up, don't do it.

I think that there is also a lack of seriousness re the vows that are generally taken. I think that some people think that for better or worse until death do you part means until you have gotten on my last nerves. If that's the case, why not just re-write the vows and say what you really mean (or intend to do). I'm sure that I'm archaic in this regard but I have the feeling that for me if I marry, unless it is life threatening (ex: like if he is kicking my butt), then we need to work it out. I'm archaic but I think that the fact that many people probably think that they should divorce if they are being greatly inconvenienced is probably a reason why it is so prevalent.

Also, I think that it may be prevalent because it seems like some people are way too concerned about how a man (or woman) looks on paper than what the core qualities of that person are - and they just don't pay attention. Many people that are arrogant fools or irresponsible with money or liars/cheaters or hotheaded were that way before the ring went on. We just choose to see what we want to see b/c how are we going to pass up this college educated black man or this woman who can be your trophy wife? Then when we find out that our ideas about how to manage money are irreconciable, then we are all surprised. Uh hello, spend more time thinking about the core personality characteristics of that person, and how they conduct themselves in various situations, than how many degrees he has. I think that there is someone for everyone - I just think that some chose those that are not for them but b/c it's convenient and our biological clocks are ticking, we roll with it.

SC

Let me start off by saying that my view on love/marriage is based on a religious/Christian POV.

Everyone's talked a lot about marriage and how large of a commitment it is - which is all true. However, on a more personal level, we should really be examining the qualities or requirements/standards that we have set for "future mate". For example, are you looking for a man/woman that is rich, handsome, body like Beyonce/Usher? Or you looking for a hardworking man/woman that is romantic, has a sense of humor, and loves family more than anything?

The bible tells us the "Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised." (Proverbs 31 29-30). (now this can apply to a man too). I firmly believe that when you are raptured by physical/outside qualities of a person and base your mate selection on that, then you are building a house on sand as opposed to a rock. I've seen SO MANY people use the wrong criteria for determining whether or not someone is mate material and then wonder why things didn't work out (divorce).

For example, in Proverns 31, at no point in the chapter is a physical description of the woman's appearance is given - but yet all the traits and qualities about this kind of woman is what a man should look for in a wife. These are qualities that do not go out style, but qualities that when the going get's tough, these attributes will help the couple weather the storm.

I'm not saying its wrong to be attracted to your mate (which is a whole 'nother subject), but it takes more for a marriage to last that a nice booty in a mini skirt or for the ladies, a 6 pack in a wifebeater.

Two of the many sources for my assertion that feminism is hurting men wanting to get committed to a relationship:



Marriage: Just Say No

Dont Marry.com

Rain Man, I only looked at the first link but it is absolutely ridiculous. As I said, if people would just take the time to get to know who they are dealing with then many of the author's points would not be an issue. It seems to me that the author (and other men who believe that garbage) need to re-evaluate their selection of women. The whoa-is-me-no-woman-is-going-to-treat-me-right line of thinking is tired.

SC

:o

dude is kinda paranoid, but he raises some good points.

but seems like a cat who probably couldn't handle a woman who was more successful than him.

chivalry is dead.

and women killed it.

LOL.

Ladies, don't believe the hype! It's alive and well! :D

Love that verse :D

I am not sure that many people have the social skills to keep a romantic relatationship going for a long time. And I think the expectations are so much higher.

In the beginning everyone is on their best behavior, we are charming, clever, affable, and the men act romantically.

For most people thats an aberation to their everyday life. Much like people that are extremely nice at Christmas and not so nice the rest of the year.

In order to keep romance in a relationship you have to posses both excellent social skills and coping skills.

You have to be able to sustain a charming affable veneer the vast majority of time. In fact that has to be essentially who you are.

And you need to be kind of person that constantly does the little things that differentiate a love affair from other types of friendship.

Most people just aren't that way, so they allow the relationship to fall into a comfortable mediocrity punctuated by occassional attempts to "restore the passion" which means they make an effort to do what they should have never stopped doing.

That comfortable mediocrity is what most people call love.

Your coping skills rank right up with your social skills in importance. By coping skills I am referring to your ability to deal with the everyday upsets and stress common to life.

IF your coping mechanisms make you unhappy a significant portion of the time, or make you angry easy or in other ways make your partner's life unhappy . . . then you have become a stressor to your partner which erodes the romantic part of your relationship.

Seriously, the vast majority of people I know have no effective means of coping with stress, pressure, tension, life or whatever you want to call it.

So they act out in ways they are usually not aware of that slowly erodes their relationships because their partner picks up on the unhappiness and it makes them unhappy.

Ok I am kind off on a tangent . . . but I keep thinking that unless we start training people to deal with their own lives better, and then expand their social skills until they can behave towards people in a positive way that elicits the reactions they want; we are just going to have a lot unsuccessful relationships.

Unsuccessful if they leave, and unsuccessful if they stay.

And given that expectations are so much higher today . . . no matter how much people sugar coat, they will know in the deep dark sadness of their soul that their relationship is a pale imitation of the brightness and romance that they both desire and could possess if their life skills were a little sharper and their courage was a little greater.

:cool: :D

Amen!

So James, will you share some of the behaviors that are aligned with having coping skills? I hear you but it's kind of abstract. Can you bring it home for me?
SC

The only thing that keeps a marriage going!!!
 

COMMUNICATION!!!

Any questions?

The communication has to be both ways and it has to shared to make the communication work no matter how one feels. Sure, someone may need at least 24 hours to cool down or whatever. But once everything has cooled, then it time to resume the issue and not skirt it so that it will blow up all again.

Some of that is some internal work that each partner must do individually.

Then why would one want to marry an kniving [sp?], evil, punk-assed, silly stupid person...

And even from a Christian perspective, it is about being equally yolked... More than anything else. And it is about letting God provide. If God wants to provide you with a mate, then it will happen. But once you force it to happen, then that is really not of God. Always the "telltale" signs are there--something shady or flags are waving... Whatever it is, what else is God suppose to do to tell you NOT to be with this person?

For me, I waited until my mid-30's to get married my first time... And now, I am in my late-30's and may have missed out on having children because I waited for the best man for me--the one I sincerely and truly believe that God has set before me. There were plenty of other men before my husband, but all of the relationships that I had, I was forcing it to make it happen. I could have gotten married to a millionaire, a medical doctor, pilot or a corporate lawyer... But each "type" of guy, I knew... I just somehow knew that this man was not the one for me. My heart NEVER fluttered--no smile to my face when I "fathomed" these guys...

But when my husband came around, it was something about him, call it his character that instantly attracted me to him... As far as getting him to commit to me, that was what we both wanted at the same time. The whole relationship fell together. Sure we have our issues and sometimes we fight like cats and dogs. But, there are many ways to ensure the best communication between your significant other. And sometimes, it just may be silence with prayer...

^^^I'm not even married, but co-sign on communication. My parents have been married for over 30 years and communication is what they both maintain keeps it going. In any relationship, you have to be open and clear about your intentions, issues, etc. Games are for children, so when you become grown, stop playing them. Say what needs to be said and if he is not trying to hear it, keep stepping on to the next man who will. Stop trying to 'change' him into Mr. Caring. That's not your job.

Add 'not overanalyzing' to that too. Women ---especially--- get so caught up in trying to figure out 'why this, why that---just why?!' that we miss out on the reality of the situation we're in. Then we do dumb stuff like 'well, you know, he's a man. He's made to act that way, etc' and we don't consider what we may be doing to cause these actions. Or maybe we can't accept that it's not all men, it's this one mutha-effa who won't/can't act right and that we need to just move on.

Bottom line: All men don't cheat; your's did. All men aren't afraid of committment; your's is. All men aren't dogs; your's is. Hell, women are just as, and in many cases more so, doggish than men. It just depends on how the wheel is spun.

We will waste millions of dollars and time into trying to be psychoanalysts and miss out on the learning/loving experience of being in love/having a real. loving relationship. If you keep finding doggish men, chances are, the problem isn't the doggish men, it's you. Do something different.

enigma_AKA

aka_money and honeykiss....
 

WELL SAID!!

I COSIGN....

Re: Men and Committment (website of article's findings)
 

The website that details the findings based on the above article can be found here:

The State of Our Unions; The Social Health of Marriage in America