I work with a really strong recruiting Chapter. For us quota additions are usually not a blessing. 9 times out of 10 QA's come from way down under and are used to maximize the placement of women into Chapters.

As for the struggling Chapters, I also agree that RFM typically gives them a lot of NM's who don't want to be there. I don't know how you fix that unless you let the PNM's not go to pref - which I think would be a better option for struggling chapters then to have them go to pref and not put them on their bid card. I would think you would want to have PNM's at your pref party who wanted to be there.

Finally, my advise to PNM's is always if you don't see yourself in that Chapter don't put them on your bid card no matter what Panhellenic says. Although, Panhellenic on many campuses instructs their counselors to tell the PNM's they HAVE to list them. I find this dishonesty to be the root of a lot of the problems with retention.

I do too. Why are you inviting women to your pref parties who you don't want, then? The blessing of being a strong recruiting chapter is that you don't have to invite that many women to pref round.

It may be the idea that they are QAs. I've worked with chapters that feel like it makes them less exclusive. A QA is someone who didn't make the cut, so why would they want them.:rolleyes:

This. The rule of pref is you don't invite people you don't want on your bidlist to pref.

And, if your recruitment chair and advisors are doing their job, no one else should know WHERE on a bidlist specific people are, or who was a QA. Snap bids are the only type of bids given in formal recruitment where the NM might stand out simply because she arrived later or wasn't at bid day festivities. (And then only in cases where snap bids aren't all handled earlier, although sometimes people are harder to get a hold of for snap bids.)

But QAs should show up with the rest of the class and no one should know whether Suzy or Annie or Becca was on the first bidlist or was the last QA.

This. Even "top tier" chapters who pride themselves on their exclusivity must be prepared to welcome every single PNM they invite to Pref as their new sister. This really needs to be emphasized to all members, no matter where their chapter happens to be in the pecking order on their campus.

I've seen this come in more often when "Flex" lists are used. I think it's stupid to be this picky, but I've seen it happen.

As a "less strong recruiting chapter," (LSRC) I've seen members get upset over QAs, thinking it meant that they had to go all the way to the bottom of the bid list. As a LSRC, actives often have to make choices about "lesser of two evil" PNMs. If you've never made quota, and suddenly you make quota plus, but you see some of your lesser-loved PNMs at bid night (and not some of the ones you've loved), and no one ever explained QAs to you (your rush crush who swore up and down that she wanted to join your chapter, may have been in the MIDDLE of your bid list), it seems like the system is working against you. BECAUSE you can't make many cuts, QAs seem like a punishment.

I will add that many of these NMs have become valued actives, but several were nothing but trouble as long as they were around. Like any NM class, I guess.

Because with RFM you have to invite a certain number whether you love them or not no choice. Most of the women they do want, but there are always 1 or 2 that do the slide on in.

Right. As soon as we get our list of new members, the bid list goes to me (recruitment advisor) and I keep it for posterity -- but no one else gets a copy, and the recruitment chairs know not to reveal where anyone was on the bid list. It would be horrible if the chapter knew who the QAs were!

No you don't. You're recommended not to cut past a certain number, or at all, but you can always cut more than that.

Our women have no idea who falls where just that there might be 1 or 2 women who they are not overly fond of. I know that if QA was not done they would not be in the Chapter, but they only have an idea that they were the QA's. The QA's come on the bid list with no special recognition just listed with all the other women.

Right but that's different than looking down on QAs for being QAs which is what you said. "They're not a blessing"

Hell yes they are. They're on your bid list so you wanted them AND you got them.

Agreed. You don't HAVE to comply exactly with the Panhellenic-supplied carry figure. If I had to choose between inviting a woman to pref who we wouldn't be thrilled to offer a bid and following the carry figures to a T, I'd choose dropping an extra woman.

Depending on the expectations from their (inter)national organization, chapters are "required" to follow the numbers to a T - and for chapters recommended to invite "all in pool" or close to that number, they often invite back women who they don't want, but are not in a position to be picky if the expectation is to "play the game" to make quota/total. They then get women they don't want (who may or may not want them) and they get stuck in a cycle of admitting women who don't meet their membership criteria and women who won't help a struggling chapter change.

And I realize each organization is different and has different policies, philosophies, etc. This is my own personal opinion about our formal recruitment process. For every member who might hold a chapter back, there is an equally awesome woman who will be the next great leader. It's such a tricky balancing act.

^^ Even though we were "expected" to make quota, we were not "required" to keep the recommended amount exactly. But, if it's an issue of I/NHQ standards then they're the ones falling into the "BID EVERYONE" trap, not the chapters. That's a fault of the HQ, not the RFM.

And top tier chapters at competitive schools also know that if they do happen to fall slightly short of quota because they're only inviting those they really want to Pref, there's a very good pool of PNMs who did not attend any Pref parties at all because they dropped somewhere in the process. You can have some snap bids issued to quality girls before the ink is dry on all the bid cards. One top chapter at my school has elevated this to an art form.

I know EXACTLY what you're talking about, and I bet we all have a line or two in our recruitment policies that says essentially the same thing. I find it ridiculous, though, because usually, the chapters that cut HARD and perhaps cut for more shallow reasons are the ones who have no problem retaining PNMs from round to round. The struggling chapters are usually the ones who are more open - in other words, you REALLY have to be a piece of work to get cut from there - and telling that chapter that they have to invite back a girl who got them to that point and possibly even bid her, does NOT help the chapter to get stronger. It just kills it more quickly.

We say over and over to NMs that sisterhood doesn't happen overnight, that the best years are often as an alum, etc etc - in effect, that it TAKES TIME and that you can't force it. Why does that go out the window when it comes to chapters in general - especially if a costly house isn't involved?

I don't know that it's so common as you think, although none of us can probably actually answer that question for each other.

I have a hard time wrapping my mind around a high recruiting strength chapter not loving everyone on their bid list, and most likely plenty more that they had to cut due to RFM. Unless there's drama on an individual level. Even then, usually the problems high recruiting strength chapters have is separating good from great, especially after just one round, so I'd think that even if there was drama between a member and a PNM, she'd be axed ASAP. You can to search for reasons to cut women. High recruiting strength chapters have to make the biggest cuts, and are drawing from the top of the pile.

Seriously. The chapter I advise would typically love to offer a bid to most of the PNMs who attend our round BEFORE pref. It's incredibly difficult to cut down to the number we invite back for pref. I just can't fathom a "strong recruiting" chapter having women at pref that they don't like.

It's sounding like it's not really that they don't like them but that they blame the QAs for the absence of their rush crush. Which means that someone is not protecting the bid list, and someone else is not explaining what QAs are to chapter members and verbally hitting them upside the head for being idiots and rude about their NMs. NMs who were on their bid list, and who WANT to be there.

Oh, I am quite sure that the issue is always one of misunderstanding. No one knows who the QAs are, but women will pick out who they think they are because that's who THEY wouldn't have wanted. Catty women can find reasons to be unhappy no matter what perfect situation you give them. Discovering that not everyone is perfectly happy on bid day in the top chapters shouldn't be a complete surprise. The grass is always greener on the other side.

However, the comments that started this conversation came from a) an advisor and b) indicated specifically that these were women from "way down under" and were "not a blessing."

THAT is where there's a serious breakdown in the process. Isn't it the advisor's job to straighten the actives out - whether redirecting their attitudes or correcting their creation of a bidlist that contains PNMs they do not want. I'd started to give it some slack, because of later comments, but the original comment highlights the problem here.

What I am hoping posters here mean by "less loved PNMs" are the ones that they liked enough to invite to pref (and, essentially, place on their bidlist), but are not necessarily the chapter wide "rush crushes", or women that have been talked up ad nauseam throughout recruitment. They think..."Okay, we got these girls and they seem pretty good, but we didn't get SUPER PNM PATTY who HAD to be higher on our bidlist...NOT FAIR!" Some PNMs are generally very visible to a chapter during recruitment, and when these PNMs do not choose the chapter on bid day, many chapters, especially the strong ones, may see women they may have liked but not LOVED, and determine the whole thing unfair and blame quota additions. Or they think that because those women are not there, they had to dip far lower onto the bid list, which may not be the case.

The funny thing to me, is that after a few years of recruitment, I've noticed that these members who were more under the radar during recruitment often become some of the best members. While I felt welcomed into my chapter, I don't think I was some sort of PNM superstar, and I know I surprised a bunch of older actives by being as active as I was in the Greek community. Often (but not always), SUPER PNM pledges and is either all about partying or generally not that involved.

Fabulous points, GammaPhi88!:)

At our school there is no deviation. If Panhel tells you to invite back 250 you invite back 250 not one over and not one under. Prior to RFM there used to be a little play in the numbers, but not any more. They will not even take your list, in fact, the computer will not accept it if the correct amount of invites are not on it.

Fabulous points GammaPhi88. Totally agree about the "under the radar" PNMs....in my 8 years of advising I can honestly say they are some of the best NMs. I can think of a few "rush crushes/tip tops" who ended up being not-so-great!

I also think this is where Recs can be super important. Often PNMs who are "not on the radar" might have a glowing rec. I know sometimes these PNMs might not have any "internal cheerleaders" cheering them on within the chapter, but a glowing/fabulous rec can help to create some cheering!

ETA: I was told as long as the chapter's NPC Delegate and Fraternity Sorority Adviser were informed the chapter was not sticking to the release figures they DO NOT have to follow those figures. Of course they are not guaranteed quota and it will probably mess up numbers for other chapters on campus. I know of a chapter on a campus who did release more than the release figure given to them and they didn’t make quota. I know the FSA pleaded with them but they refused saying those women they were releasing did not meet their minimum requirements. This campus uses a computer program (ICS) so I know they were able to do it. It might vary campus to campus.

So that brings me to this question (because I really don't have an answer)....Are we starting to see the "flaws" in RFM? Thoughts?

No, my job is not to create a bidlist that contains only PNM's that they want. It is not my Chapter nor am I an active member in it. I have no voting rights nor would I want to. I'm there to Advise them. Nor is it my job to straighten out the actives or their votes. There is a system in place that is used across the country. My job is to make sure they follow the rules of the voting system. My job is NOT to manipulate who they will invite back. When I say there may be girls on the bid list that become members that are from way down on the bidlist it doesn't mean they are "disliked" it simply means that if there were no quota additions they would not have made the cut. I probably shouldn't have used the term "not a blessing" in conjunction with QA's because frankly that term could be used on several of the girls not necessarily a QA. In fact, I couldn't even tell you at this point who was a QA from fall unless I looked at the list.

You are right, if they are invited to Pref some one some where liked them enough for them to be invited. Again the active members have no idea who is a QA because they do not see the bid list only the Advisors do.

Right, and you advise them that anyone on the bid list could get a bid. You also advise them not to bitch about new members, that QAs are not responsible for their rush crush not being there on bid day, etc. That's what I assume advisers do everywhere. When 18-22 year old women start acting like catty teenagers, the adviser pokes in to say that they're being ridiculous. I'm not saying you write the bid list yourself, that's also ridiculous.

Additionally it was YOUR response about not being a blessing and "way down under" that was my biggest red flag.

Stating that everyone who is invited to pref is on the bidlist and that they should consider that carefully when voting is somehow manipulative? So is stating that every new member is AWESOME and none are NOT A BLESSING or came from WAY DOWN ON THE BIDLIST, totally manipulative too?

While that's nice now, that's not the impression you gave at all.
Which is a huge change in your original story.
I'm fairly certain that that's not acceptable because schools cannot force chapters to bid people they do not wish to bid. I'd talk to an NPC rep or an HQ rep about that.

Was this past the point when women get released for grades? If not, I'm thinking maybe it would be a good idea for that Panhel's minimum grade requirement to be more in line with the chapter policies (i.e. don't let women with a 2.2 rush when the minimum for every chapter is a 3.0).

Obviously one of the flaws is going to be the intangibility of why people get cut. On one hand a chapter should never be forced to invite women who don't meet grade requirements, who have serious personal problems with members...on the other, you can say "they don't meet our requirements" and also assert that you don't have to tell why, because that's private MS information, whether that's the truth or not. I'm more inclined to say if a chapter wants to cut their pref party list down to one member over quota, even if it is for spectacularly lame reasons, that's their prerogative. They're the ones who have to hash it out with their alumnae or national poobahs or whoever...Panhel is blameless. I'd rather see a chapter cut too harshly instead of giving women false hope (whether they're doing it themselves or RFM is making them do it).

I've worked with a chapter that didn't keep the number suggested by CPC. I obviously can't get into why bc of the whole ritual thing. The chapter in question did NOT make quota that year. They were not eligible for QAs. They actually had just the number of women at Pref to fill a pledge class including all of their parties. As an advisor, I thought this was incredibly stupid, but the collegians had no problem with it. The threw a couple COB parties and picked up girls they wanted, and that was the end of it. I don't know how much the Chapter Advisor had to go through to make this go through, but I have the impression as a high functioning chapter, it wasn't much.

SO TRUE!!!! (Is it bad I have faces flashing through my head when I read this!!!)

I'm late to this discussion but I am one who thinks we are definitely seeing some flaws in RFM. RFM has a lot of good points, and I think I understand the inception, and birth ot it. However, somewhere along the way, a monster was created - the monster of 'everyone gets a bid, QA's are plentiful, and pledge classes are now over 100 on many campuses.

The heavy cuts mandated for stronger chapters after round one make sense but (and woe to me for even suggesting this) I think another, equally heavy cut needs to happen just before pref.

And, on another note, my experience with QA's is that they are very, very often great, contributing members (just not superstar pnms but loved enough to get to pref). As an advisor, I often got quite a kick out of watching a QA from the previous year take a positive, leadership/active role in recruitment the next year. (keeping in mind that only I knew she was a QA,of course)

^^^ Like!

I think the pledge class issue will end up resolved if schools can add chapters as a result. I think that the RFM monster is exaggerated. Not every PNM gets a bid, it's still entirely possible to be cut from all chapters (even those told not to cut anyone). Ultimately I think this is all GOOD for Greek Life, as minimizing PNMs cut from recruitment by forcing them to seek other chapters will on the whole increase the number matched and the number who are positive about Greek Life moving forward

I know expansion isn't as easy as snapping your fingers but it seems that those many campuses probably need to begin the process unless they want chapters of 300+ to be the norm. And on many smaller campuses RFM is helping 5 chapters sustain a much smaller number of actives without the constant teetering collapse, colonization and rinse/repeat.

Right, and like I said, I acknowledge there are some HUGE hurdles at some schools, probably the ones with the highest quotas for that reason. Not sure there's an easy solution there other than the entire school rallying behind a new chapter to ensure it survives (which requires ditching a lot of the tier bullshit that is still 'important' at some schools).

Not knowing Arkansas campus culture, I wonder if the sororities and fraternities could or would pull together like that in a show of support that would ease some of those fears, and if it would last.

Unless the pnm is ridiculous (strange beyond words, horrible gpa etc.) it's rare for her to be cut by all chapters. Generally she eliminates the "must invite all back" chapters with her rankings in the first round or two where she still ends up with a full schedule. By the time those "stronger recruiting" chapters are doing the cuts that eliminate her, she doesn't have any of those other "weaker recruiting" chapters left so she's left completely without invites. This is how pnms end up "dropping through the cracks" as it seems to get called on gc.