What's interesting about the Dartmouth situation is the block rushing, that a bunch of PNMs decided that they would like to put their stamp on the new Kappa Delta chapter, so a bunch of them went for it. It's just the kind of situation people here have wished would happen to small chapters with low pledge classes, but at Dartmouth, women had the gumption to do it. It'd be great if the idea caught on and there were similar blocks in the future or on other campuses (campi?).

No problem.
And random capitolizations.

For the first time, this caught me as really funny: "DGTess has not made any friends yet "

No problem.

Apparently the mods deleted that post, though...

Wow there's been some pretty active moderating here... I was very confused for a moment.

Stupid work getting in the way of GC.

Fixed that for you.

It's NOT a Dartmouth problem in the least. It happens at tons and tons of schools across the country. It is more disturbing that it happens at Dartmouth because you'd think the girls are a little smarter than to buy into that crap - especially when you read why some of the sororities are formed &/or why they went local. Feminism in the best sense of the word, IMO.

It is NOT worse than anything else on the planet because it is happening to your daughter.

Also, if Dartmouth took any institutional responsibility for the varying reps of the sororities, it would more likely take the form of randomly assigning women to chapters, or getting rid of the system altogether. A Greek system eating itself alive would probably give them a giant boner.

If most of Dartmouth's female students fear being socially stigmatized if they join the wrong group, then I'm not impressed with the supposedly successful community-building efforts there.
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They're still, for the most part, teenagers. Tent talk and gossip happens at every sorority rush.

Yet his latest ID is allowed to live on and continue posting. Sad.

Seriously. There's something wrong with this picture...

Hey folks, the October 19 '09 online issure of The Dartmouth has several comments, an opinion piece, and so on, dealing with sorority recruitment. One item gives more data and certainly supports what DartmouthPanhel has said here on GC. In addition it mentions some changes that Panhellenic may be considering for future recruitments:

http://thedartmouth.com/2009/10/19/opinion/cartagena/

Yup, I am on a board that has rep too. And this post would sure as hell get MAD rep from me!

Oh him. When someone first quoted Choppers, I thought BA was back with Judo Chop.

Hey all.

I've mentioned this before, but I'm actually an Dartmouth alum now, but I used to be involved in the CPH.

I understand what D Mom is saying, but a strongly tiered sorority system is not unique to Dartmouth. Our Panhellenic does work with those chapters that are weaker at recruitment, but the fact is, someone always has to be last.

I would feel better about the tier system if it were based on something worthwhile like GPA, service hours, happiness of the sisters... Instead, the tiers are mostly based off of the opinion of fraternity men and trashy publications like IvyGate (I know it's hard to ignore, but it makes me sad when women make life decisions based on a repulsive internet blog that recently posted a humorous article about a student death).

Part of the reason Dartmouth women have the luxury to find chapter reputations beneath them is because Panhellenic works so hard to get all women a bid. At many campus, the majority of women who go through recruitment end up bidless, so even getting a bid to the "worst" sorority is considered an achievement. If we chose to take that path, we could artificially make our system significantly more competitive, so that many women wound up bidless. This would likely make all bid recipients more likely to be satisfied with their bid. BUT, our number one priority is providing the opportunity of sisterhood to every interested woman, so this is not a route Panhellenic will be taking.

Panhellenic can not hold rush any earlier than it does per College regulations.

Informal, 'get to know the sorority' events are held for freshmen women during the spring. All of our chapters take advantage of this opportunity to meet women, and our 'less desirable' chapters are no exception. There are also events that are Panhellenic in nature, providing women a chance to see sorority life in general. We chose not to control these "pre-recruitment" events, because each chapter chooses to organize them differently.

I understand the pressure your daughter felt to join a "desireable" house, but I have to tell you that most if not all of the talk of desirability and tiers fades out after rush. All sororities mix with all fraternities, and women truly aren't placed in a box because of their affiliation. Women who end up in houses they didn't expect are often the happiest a few weeks or months down the road because they find their chapter truly values them for who they are. In my anecdotal experience, it almost seems like the system knows where these women fit better than the women themselves.

And a final, small point. The school newspaper made a HUGE deal last year of what they called a totally new computer system/recruitment style. We switched from accept/regret to select&rank. The real difference is just taking out an extra and unnecessary step. It really wasn't a huge change.

RE: Block Rushing

While it wasn't expected, it was exciting to see our newest colony make quota. Block rushing is rather common in our fraternity system, so it seems to have made the jump. While I appreciate the sentiment of some women who essentially said they were ready to drop out of recruitment, but instead decided they could make KD into the kind of sorority they wanted, it's hard to see that many women ISP/suicide rank.

EDIT: By "it wasn't expected" I was referring to block rushing, not making quota or not.

That's exactly what I was saying in heli-dad's thread. A school can try to mandate love and community and daisies and puppies all they want, but the reality is that you can't put people together completely at random and expect them to all love each other. Maybe just from the law of averages a few will, but not the majority. People join fraternities and sororities because they like the other members of the group, plain and simple. That's why the bonds extend beyond college.

Something we also deal with a lot is that, for a lot of these women, not getting into their first choice chapter is the first major disappointment in their lives. I know that sounds sad, but many of these women got all the awards and scholarships in their high schools, got into Dartmouth, and pretty much felt unstoppable.

When my head used to ring after dealing with upset PNMs/parents, I would comfort myself by saying that I was preparing these women for the real world, where they wouldn't always get the job/apartment/promotion they wanted.

I'm going to stick my size 11 feet in here. I don't think D Mom was whining. I think she was trying to paint a picture of how girls at Dartmouth (and oh, so many other universities) feel going through recruitment, how they perceive the chapters, and how others perceive the chapters, and by extension, them. There is so much out there on the internet about sororities at individual schools that is just cruel (even for the "top tier" ones) and mean-spirited. She offered some suggestions for the system instead of just pissing and moaning. If she was a true helicopter mom, she would have called the Greek Office and/or national sorority offices and raised cain. She didn't, or at least didn't mention it.

Munchkin03 and Dartmouth Panhell got it right- these girls are 18. They are still teenagers, and are still heavily influenced by their peers. Simply because they are admitted to a very elite university does not mean that they are more mature than your average 18 year old. I do agree with Dartmouth Panhell in that these girls were part of the elite at their high schools- they are used to being at the top of the food chain-academically/socially/athletically/whatever combination. To go to college and be in the middle of the pack academically/socially/athletically/whatever is probably something that is quite new and unsettling for a lot of the girls. And if some of those girls decide to drop out of recruitment, so what? They put their big girl panties on and made a decision. Of course, they must keep those big girl panties on and not whine and moan and view themselves as victims of the Greek system, either.

I like how Dartmouth Panhell has discussed the situation, her writing shows grace and sensitivity. Dartmouth and the Greek system were lucky to have her as a member of the university.

I will jump off my soapbox now.

To suggest that a school do something to fix a problem in the Greek system that isn't a Greek problem, but a human problem, sends the FWAP FWAPs off in my mind. I can just imagine if I would have told my parents that the sorority I joined wasn't as popular as another one and didn't have as many mixers. Their response would have been something along the lines of "well then, why did you pick it, dumbass?"

Her daughter received a bid to a sorority. She is happy with it. Why on earth, then, are there complaints?

I guess I'm looking at Dartmouth differently since they have a whole year until recruitment, and a year to actually meet individuals and mature a bit to know that people can be full of it. Maybe it is related to high/over achieving and the push to be THE BEST at everything since Dartmouth is an Ivy.

< when it comes to subject matter, kinda pulling off onto a frontage road here >

Just wondering if guys at Dartmouth who don't get bids from the house(s) they consider desirable are as upset as women who drop out of recrutiemnt seem to be? I'm guessing that the fraternities also are perceived to have tiers? And I can't imagine tha every guy gets a bid to the house he really would like to be in?`

Then again if they have a informal system like most fraternity rushes I know of, they wouldn't know if they got a bid or not until the end. And men are more likely to form stronger opinion about what org they would like to join because their contact isn't restricted.

The fraternity recruitment process is only two days long, with the majority of bids being given out on the first night. It's less common for guys to be upset over the house they get a bid to (since they generally only rush one house, and its their choice), but guys definitely get cut from their house of choice. And, one of the downfalls of fraternity rush (since everyone seems to be suggesting that sororities should use fraternity-style recruitment) is that if you're cut from the house you "shook out" at, it's super unlikely that you'll get a bid anywhere else. At least with sorority rush, when you get cut from a house in round 1, you still have other houses as possibilities. I'm not saying sorority rush is better than fraternity rush, I just don't think that converting to an informal, fraternity-style system is the perfect solution to our "recruitment problems".

One of the big differences is the PR. Firstly, the newspaper doesn't seem to to seek out the numbers (e.g. number of men who didn't get a bid) in the same way they do with sorority rush. BUT, a huge difference is that the men who don't get bids DON'T talk about it. Instead of complaining (loudly and openly), most guys will deny that they even rushed if they didn't get a bid.

I want to start this off by saying that Dartmouth was my dream school but I wasn't their dream applicant because they wait listed me and I ended up with my second choice university. That being said most of the comments on this thread inply that a) girls unhappy with their rush results should just shut the f**k up and b) the university should but out of the operation of the greek system and let the greeks do whatever they want. With respect to point a, at my university the school newspaper runs articles after every recruitment about how rush sucks. No matter how much we all want these articles to go away, they are not going to. We are just going to have to live with them and if they have valid points try to change the way we run rush. With respect to b, universities have a valid interest in the greek system and how it is run because to the extent the greek system contributes to a toxic social enviornment, the classic example is Vanderbilt, the university has a big interest in trying to change that because it does the university no good to have a large number of pissed off students, some of whom will just transfer out and bring down the graduation rate and no elite university wants that.

Actually that is a huge change as part of RFM. Accept/regret is too cut and dried. If a PNM has a negative preconceived notion about a Chapter based on popularity, campus rep, tent talk, or even "I know one XYZ and can't stand her", then she will often regret them without really giving them a chance.

RFM requires the most popular Chapters to make larger cuts earlier in the process so as to not string PNMs along with false hope. Then the ranking system allows a PNM to remain in the process even if her favorite Chapters didn't invite her back. Sure it can be harsh on a PNM getting cut from her favs, but it makes her give her least favorites another shot if she truly wants to be Greek. When a PNM spends more time with those actives (hopefully) she will make a connection and change her opinion, especially when she now knows these are the ones who are interested in her while her original favs weren't.

I've got numerous anecdotal proof this can happen, but all anyone needs to do is read through some of the Recruitment Stories here. How often have we seen a PNM at first rank a Chapter low, get dropped by her #1's, then wind up loving one or more of those she had left? Had the accept/regret system been in place she would have never had that chance and might have been totally cross cut.

That push is present at all the Ivies, but it doesn't necessarily express itself through social-climbing. I'd point to Columbia, Harvard, and Brown as peers of Dartmouth with overachieving students who are mostly concerned about proving themselves through non-social organizations. Greek organizations exist at these schools, but they're kind of a niche interest. Publications, theater, political groups, etc. are a much bigger deal. For good and for ill, having a large and prominent Greek system contributes to the importance of social rankings on campus.
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Aren't RFM and accept/regret or priority separate from one another? I know most CPHs are encouraged to use priority ranking, but theoretically, a CPH could use RFM and accept/regret. Priority just removes a step so the Rho Gammas and the PNMs don't have to meet up between rounds and a PNM doesn't have time to think and sulk and decide maybe she won't go to the next round if she doesn't like her invites.

Hopefully with RFM, things will improve in the next few years at Dartmouth.

And as I said...if the university interferes for good (or their interpretation of good) they will also end up interfering for bad. You can't have it both ways.

Honestly, the schools know that Panhellenic runs rush. These ARE NPC rules, made by alumnae with years and years of rush experience behind them, not capricious and arbitrary things that a bunch of college aged girls dreamed up while sitting around swilling beer - as some papers seem to imply. If the school doesn't want to deal with NPC's rules, then they need to kick the nationals off campus and go with an all-local system that they can manipulate however they want. Oh but wait - those locals wouldn't have the insurance behind them that the nationals do. Again, you simply cannot have it both ways.

I think the locals may have been taking their ritual a little too literally (and not taking into context that their GLOs' rituals were written in 1870, 1874, and 1885!) and not looking at the values of their organizations. I am a member of one of the NPCs with a chapter that went local at Dartmouth and I am a feminist and I don't see anything wrong with my sorority's ritual.

I think that it was more a question of some of the rules being enforced and the reasoning behind them, more than the actual ritual, in "your" group's case. There is IMO a disconnect between the spirit of the women who created the groups and some of the edicts today, but that's another thread.

Incidentally, after searching through that neverending blog that DMom referenced, I found the article she talked about - it's over 3 years old and does not take into account the newest sorority. It was written by 2 anonymous alums, and in content is actually no worse than the infamous "Big 6" article - the tone is just a lot nastier.

Dmom, if you're hung up on your daughter's choice because of things like this, may I suggest that you get a life of your own.

It always sucks when a chapter decides to o local. However at least I can respect it when it is done for matters of principle, like your former Dartmouth chapter. We have a former Owl Club (our term for recolonization) at Yale who decided they didn't want to pay national dues or chapter services fees and seperated from us, while still using the name Psi U. That makes me so pissed.

/rant

We've been using RFM for a while. The switch to S&R was made, as said, to 1) stop the process where PNMs felt "led on" by chapters which the PNMs would never receive bids to, and 2) use invitations more efficiently. When we used A/R, there was always a large group of women who would receive invites to all the houses they were invited back to. This was lovely for them, but they only cared about their top houses. Then there were women who ended up with few or no invites who would have been ecstatic to receive the invites "regretted" by the other women. Thus, S&R made sense.

What I meant by "it's not a huge deal" is that the press made it sound like we made this change and that was the reason more women didn't get the bids they wanted and/or dropped out of rush. There's this weird perception on campus that because we use ICS, we are randomly placing the women into chapters, and that somehow S&R "mismatches" women more often than A/R. What everyone fails to grasp is that this whole thing is based on the preferences of the PNM and the chapter. Panhellenic (or ICS for that matter) isn't arbitrarily making decision.

Even the comics are weighing in:

http://thedartmouth.com/2009/10/15/comics/touchthefire

http://thedartmouth.com/2009/10/20/comics/4coffee

Let me first clarify that while our school newspaper and drama-loving student population may want to interfere and change recruitment, the school administration definitely doesn't. In my dealings, including weekly meetings with the Dean of the College, the head of Greek Letter Organizations, etc. they are nothing but supportive of how we do things. In fact, they are so pre-NPC that only national sororities are allowed to come to campus (our three locals can remain -- they are grandfathered in -- but no new locals).

However, in response to the insurance issue, our local groups are all insured through the college. The college has even extended that as an option to our national groups in risk management discussions with national HQs (when NHQ says "we would love to let you do X, but our insurance carrier won't allow it", the Office of Greek Letter Orgs tends to counter by offering to insure us).

Why are you reading IvyGate? I don't even read it, and I'm an alumna of two Ivies.

Perhaps you should find something else to keep you occupied.

I figured all that. I was responding more to the Bitter Betties who think that the school should somehow wring all the emotional ups and downs from rush/Greek life until it resembles a playdate between two highly medicated 1 year olds.

The biggest problem IMO is the campus, PNMs, and especially the editorial writers need some education in how Recruitment actually works. NPC has formulated the Recruitment policies and guidelines based on decades of Recruitments on campuses across the country. Everything is specifically designed to make it as fair as possible for all PNMs and Chapters. Plus, they need to understand is that ICS is simply a computerized version of the hand matching that used to be done to make things easier and much quicker.

Bumping this thread, only for this line lol