It's happened in Toronto before. And last year, a judge ordered a tree removed from a courthouse lobby.

Not all jewish people believe that this applies to "god" in english. My own understanding was that most jewish people think it is fine, but that might be because the jewish people I know tend to be on the more non-orthodox side. Jews that believe writing "god" is okay believe that the rule about not writing "god" down only applies in the ancient hebrew text. http://www.aish.com/rabbi/ATR_browse...tqak&offset=10

I think you likely understand that my point stands as an example of why saying something as inane as "ALL RELIGIONS SAY GOD SO IT'S NOT CHRISTIAN!" absolutely is not correct, considering the founding of the nation and the fact that, indeed, other religions do not refer to God in that way. "Most" may have been an overstatement, though, I'll agree.

It's happening again this year in Ottawa.

Choir drops 'Christmas' from carol
Teachers' Decision; Children to sing: 'Soon it will be festive day"

http://www.nationalpost.com/todays_p...html?id=181191

I think that maybe we're dealing with something that is not as black and white as saying "all religions say god so it's not christian" (which I don't think anyone said on this thread, but is your summary of either mine or sageoface's comments). I agree that while the statement "in god we trust" may have originally been referring to a christian god (and acknowledged such in my earlier post)... but the government making such a statement does not carry with it the overt christian symbolism as a christmas tree or nativity scene. I tend to think that the sentiments expressed in the phrase "in god we trust" are consistent with most other religions, since most acknowledge a higher power. In contrast, the sentiments expressed by say, mary holding a baby jesus, is not an idea that is interchangeable with other religions.

My bad.

Actually I think the founding fathers were very insightful in acknowledging a higher power "god" but to not delineate a specific "god". Government must grow to meet the needs of the entire population to be effective.

Yes they all were "christian" but the range of denominational belief is great.

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Foundin..._Religion.html

Religious Affiliation
of U.S. Founding Fathers - # of Founding Fathers - % of Founding Fathers
Episcopalian/Anglican - 88 - 54.7%
Presbyterian - 30 - 18.6%
Congregationalist - 27 - 16.8%
Quaker - 7 - 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/
German Reformed - 6 - 3.7%
Lutheran - 5 - 3.1%
Catholic - 3 - 1.9%
Huguenot - 3 - 1.9%
Unitarian - 3 - 1.9%
Methodist - 2 - 1.2%
Calvinist - 1 - 0.6%
TOTAL 204

Founding Father defined as one or more of the following:
- signed the Declaration of Independence
- signed the Articles of Confederation
- attended the Constitutional Convention of 1787
- signed the Constitution of the United States of America
- served as Senators in the First Federal Congress (1789-1791)
- served as U.S. Representatives in the First Federal Congress

"Silver Bells" also has the line "It's Christmas time in the city..." No mention of whether they sang "It's FESTIVE time in the city"

If they wanted to be more inclusive, they could have sung:

Frosty the Snowman
Jingle Bells
Winter Wonderland
Sleigh Ride

I don't disagree, but I think we lose something in translation in our efforts to fit the Founding Fathers into 2007 America - namely, that the language used is very Masonic, and likely was not intended to be open in the fashion that we consider it (although the basis of the founding of America would dictate openness to a certain degree, as well).

Here's the rub, though - the overwhelming majority, if not all (I'm not sure how we consider Calvinism nowadays to be honest) of those are indeed Christian, and the founding of the nation was intended to allow freedom to worship, but generally the freedom to worship whichever Christian God you choose. That's well and good, but it just doesn't apply to modern America - using the nation's founding as any sort of crutch on either side of this discussion seems difficult, if not impossible.

In God We Trust just really doesn't work for this particular argument, for that reason - if we're going to be "open" we can't rely on the word "God" to do our work for us. Many religions, including some practiced by hundreds of millions worldwide, don't fit the Christian ideal of "God" in that sense. I do apologize for being "snippy" before, but I think this may more accurately reflect my point here.

I'm not talking about non-Christians not wanting to deal with Christmas, I'm talking about them feeling pressured NOT to be able to celebrate/talk about/etc. their own holidays. I don't think a non-Christian in my office would feel comfortable talking about what they got for Hanukkah. It's not about limiting the majority, but about being aware of the minority. I'm still getting felt out by my coworkers as at least one of them isn't quite sure about the whole "Catholic" thing.

This is what I'm talking about. Awesome open environment.

Thank you kindly!:)

Amen! (oops, hope I didn't offend anyone with that.)

But at the same time- don't let it get you down.

In my personal experience, the VAST majority of people in this country have no problem with Christmas trees or being wished a Merry Christmas etc. And on the same note, I as a Christian have no trouble attending ceremonies of other religions or being greeted with seasonal tidings that pertain to other religious holidays.

It is always an honor to be greeted in the manner or included in the experience of a person's religion, and I treat it as such and am thankful for the sign of friendship it indicates.

The people who really fight these battles are, in my experience, in some way very unhappy with their own failed lives and this is how they can inflict themselves on everyone else and feel like they have power- and they do it because they realize they have noone to blame but themselves for their misery.

A dark thought perhaps, but one I keep in mind when I hear stories like this lest I get pulled into those people's own sense of paranoid hatred and start assuming all non-Christians are out to get us, when in fact it is just a few people who are so unhappy with themselves they will settle for sharing a little of their misery with anyone.

Well said.

All it takes is one person the feel "uncomfy" to ruin Christmas for the masses. It's not my fault your crazy mother raised you Jehova's Witness and you never got a Sega Genesis on Dec 25. The squeakiest wheel gets the oil I guess. And i'm sorry, but anyone who says that America wasn't founded as a Christian nation is just lost in life. Just my opinion.

Well then guess I lost in life then... see silly me thought that America was founded on Deist principles rejecting the idea of a "Christian" nation since it only lead to conflict between the various denominations, splinter sects, those who rejected the idea of a "Christian God" (but not God), and since many of those living in the colonies had fled religious persecution - you know the Enlightenment principles of no state religion but a belief in a higher being that those silly Founding Fathers wrote about?