They are not the same thing, and to say that you're one if you really are the other would be lying.

As far as saying "spritually centered", the "spirit" that you "center" yourself around could be the spirit of Adolf Hitler. Again, NOT what he means. He's an atheist, period. That's what he is. He shouldn't PC it up for anyone.

Azalin, just tell the pledgemaster "I'm an atheist, is there going to be any problem with anything in the rituals or the fraternity's central beliefs?" Straight up. He'll tell you yes or no and that'll be that.

alum, I think there is a thread in the KS forum on the higher power question.

I agree with 33girl - honesty is the best policy.

There was a time when several GLOs had a religious requirement, either inclusionary or exclusionary. I think most of those have gone by the wayside, but the ritual may still be very much one religion or another, or none at all.

I will agree with that advice, 33 Girl ONLY if he has objections to being in the midst of religion. Some atheists do, and that's their right. For instance.. there are some atheists who object to pubic prayer at a town council meeting. They either come a few minutes later, or they walk out of the room during the prayer.

If, however.. it's not a big deal to him as it isn't to some atheists.. he can respectfully stand while others pray... if they do. Or listen to bible quotes.. if they read them.

It really depends on how he feels about it.

"Spiritually centered" merely means that a person either believes in a higher power, but not in organize religion... or... doesn't believe in a higher power but still believes in the spirit of humanity.

As an aside... Somebody once sent me the theory that every internet debate ultimately ends up with somebody mentioning Hitler or Nazi Germany at one point or another. Guess it's true!

Well, that's what I mean. He can get an answer and then decide for himself. But he needs to get a straight answer, and he can only get that by being straight himself.

And I think "spiritually centered" is one of those phrases that can mean so many things, it basically means nothing - which is why I don't think he should use it.

The only reason I said "it depends" -- is if he really doesn't care if his fraternity prays or reads from the bible.. then why make an issue of it?

But again.. if he feels strongly about it then yes, I would agree your route is the best to take.

Actually, "spiritually centered" does mean something. It means you believe in goodness and lead a "centered" life towards it.. whether that is through humanitarianism, through a higher power, or both. But you're right, it's a very broad term.

Keep your mouth shut (at least until after you're intiated) and enjoy the time with your new brothers.

I'm going to ask the same question:

If belief in a religious what-have-you is central to membership to a GLO, why on earth would that be not brought up before bids are offered? Otherwise it would seem to be a waste of time for both the GLO and the PNM.

It's not....and that is part of the problem. Some Greek organization's history and traditions are more infiltrated into scripture than others...and you are right...without breaking any ritual secrets...at a minimum, to WHAT degree they are involved, should at least be mentioned.

Wow, thanks for the replies, everyone.

I attended a catholic high school for four years, and I cooperated with morning prayer, mass, etc. I don't have a problem with their beliefs, but I guess it'll be up to the fraternity to decide. I'll tell them tomorrow when I get back to school.

My opinion is that if you don't have a problem cooperating then I don't see any reason the fraternity really needs to know.

Nobody ever said you had to believe everything you hear or say for that matter. I don't know if your fraternity is based in christianity or not (most are I believe) but as long as you uphold the core values (brotherhood, friendship - whatever they are) no one will know you're just going through the motions during any religious parts that may come up. I don't think any of us believe that we are in church, although we do take it seriously, when we meet with our GLOs even if it is for ritual.

Not even touching the accuracy or inaccuracy of that statement, I'm going to say this in the nicest way possible; please don't speak for my fraternity. You're not a member, and you can't speak for how things are done nationally or on a particular campus.

If the fraternity is Kappa Sig (or any other, for that matter), talk to the brothers in the chapter and explain the situation.

If they truly are welcoming of members from diverse backgrounds, your personal beliefs and view of spirituality should not be an issue. If you are a true athiest, then you can recite a prayer or a vow to God and consider them just "words." I don't see where it needs to be an issue. If you have to put your hand on a Bible it won't matter to you: it's just a book. They don't need to know your religious views, sexual orientation or your political views.

Ok, so today, I walked about a mile to the house to talk to them, and they simply told me that don't force religion on anyone. One of the guys said he was Jewish and that he hated church. The conversation took about three minutes.

I would hate church too, if I was Jewish. :p

I'm glad everything went OK!

This is correct. And a dispute over this rule was the basis of a dispute between the national fraternity and its Stanford chapter. You can read about this in the New York Times at:
http://tinyurl.com/noksigatheists