Exactly - while you'd like to think that love is simple, pure and completely unlinked to money, that's just not realistic. Mortgage payments, bills and the such are just as much a part of a relationship as anything else. The fact is it's tougher to get a good job with less education.

That of course is if this is a long-term thing; in the short term, that stuff doesn't matter quite as much.

There are lots of people who are brilliant, don't really work hard in school, decide not to pursue higher levels of education and then become successful.

-Rudey
--By lots, I mean very few.

Interesting...
 

How the fellas are listing tangible measurements--such as finances, etc...

Whereas, the ladies are listing intangible measurements--such as feelings, etc...

How serious are you with this guy? Do you want to marry him or he's the boyfriend for now? Can you see yourself with him in another 5-10 years, with or without kids?

Thanks everyone for the different perspectives. Here is some more info on him...

We're not marriage serious. We're not casual. We kind of fall somewhere in the middle.

Right now, I couldn't see myself dating anybody else. He's wonderful!

We communicate great. He's an intelligent guy. I LOVE talking to him. As far as the plan for the future...haven't really discussed that. I know he wants to get married and have a family one day...but I'm not necessarily sure that he sees himself doing anything else besides bartending. He never talks about other job possibilities. I never ask because I don't know how to not sound....well....rude. I don't want him to think his job isn't good enough. He's a hard worker.

He loves bartending. I'm happy he enjoys his job...but BARTENDING??? FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE??? That thought kind of scares me.

I'm just trying to figure out if not sharing the same values about the importance of a career is a deal-breaker.

As for sharing values of a career, some of the questions I'd ask myself if I were in your shoes:
1) Does he have a good work ethic?
ie. show up on time, take pride in doing a job well done. You did say he was a hard worker.
2) Does he have respect for his boss and other co-workers?
3) Is he living within his means?
ie, is he complaining about not having enough money, does he pay his bills on time, are credit card companies living messages on his voice mail. If he can't handle his business on the salary of a bartender then getting another job isn't going help him.

These kinds of traits can transfer to any career. Just because he's not talking about career change now doesn't mean that he won't change his mind when he wants to settle down. The majority of successful people started out with just a job.

Miranda on Sex and the City had this same problem with Steve... she was a lawyer and he was a bartender. Look how that worked out (yes, i realize it's a TV show)

I definately think that in the end it is up to how YOU feel about him and ya'll situation. You obviously have at least a small problem with his lifestyle, or else you wouldn't even be asking us for our opinion. So, I will give you mine (to go along with the other million)

I personally find education to be important. I have dated guys in the range of not having a college education all the way to doctors. I have found that I personally just didn't have that much in common with men who did not go to college. I think there are so many experiences that college gives you, that you will automatically have a little bit more of a connection with a college graduate than someone else.

I do agree that intelligence is a better measure than college credits. But, it naturally follows that a college graduate is likely going to be more intelligent. (Please don't flame me for this people, it is just an opinion.)

I personally found that dating the doctor provided me with the most intellectually stimulating relationship I have had. I have this LOVE of learning, and his intelligence made me want to learn even more! And he also happened to have so many of the other qualities that I crave in a relationship. Tenderness and a sense of humor, etc.

If you are thinking about getting serious with this man, I think you DO need to have a conversation about his goals and aspirations. Don't worry about coming across as rude- if he is serious about you then he should understand why you need to know his plans for the future.

I'm not flaming you, just questioning why you think that. How would you back that up? How would you define "intelligence"?


On that note, I just realized that out of the five or six people I consider closest to me, only one of them is a college graduate -- a statistic that is pretty interesting given that I am in college and so is the majority of my social circle.

I only back it up with the people I know and have met. I completely admit that it may be different for other people. I really am only talking about my own personal experience. :)

I guess it depends on the person. I think sharing similar values is important in a relationship, and usually, that comes with upbringing and education. Usually, someone who has dropped out of college to "do his own thing" won't share the same values as someone who has a degree and is, say, a doctor. Of course, there are exceptions.

Thats . . . well uhm . . . just wrong on so many different levels Taualumna lol.

Maybe guys are taught to view relationships more in terms feelings(though we don't get credit for it). For men its important to us that we are attracted to her and get along, thats about it.

Maybe women are brought up to be more focused on resumes?

Along the same lines, I have never seen men gush about the new girl they dated having this and that impressive resume feature or material advantage. But I have certainly seen women do it.

I guess its another gender difference? And yet men are considered more shallow . . odd eh?

As far as education being crucial, I think there that may have been more true a long time ago.

At one time if you went to college it meant that you probably came from a certain type of background or had superlative ability (that someone recognized).

Now that we have made higher education into an assembly line for the production of Happy Meal Diplomas, and I apply this to advanced degrees also, education has less to do with your background and more to do with your ability and patience with ticket punching . . . and I am not sure thats an admirable trait.

Maybe not a bad one, but not an admirable one.

The bottom line is whether you can trust yourself (and most people lack the skill) to recognize a quality person with all his/her attributes just by getting to know someone.

Then you wouldn't need to check off boxes on an imaginary dating resume that can net you a guy that looks good on paper but is still dysfunctional as a person.

Actually, think about it like this - I think everyone will agree that attending college is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for having 'intelligence' (which I'll politely refuse to define specifically).

However, if we say that 'intelligence' is something that is quantifiable, and that 'intelligent' people are those who have above-average intelligence, I think it's more likely that someone that is 'intelligent' has a college degree of some sort.

There are certainly exceptions, but we even note these people as exceptions - "He didn't go to college, but he's very bright, just not into school" or "he's very creative, but not a test-taker" and so on.

However, this link is probably not causative - think of the avalanche of people from our generation that have a college degree (even a moderately unimportant one, like say mine), as well as the way that people quantify 'intelligence' (it's probably related to, say, money or attitude, no?).

Not that I'm really agreeing with any other points in this thread (honestly, James is right on here, in many ways) - just musing a little. Work is boring.

College graduates aren't any smarter Rob. So what if there are standards that keep people from attending college (low enough for many schools) and so what if college graduates have higher incomes because that large population of the world decided they hated free money.

That's not to say the people that don't go to college are dumb. The richest man in the world dropped out of college. But these are rare.

-Rudey

Right, because rich always = smart.

Anyway, James has a point. My understanding of guys (and please guys, correct me if I'm wrong) indicates that if a guy is attracted to a woman and she's reasonably fun and not a pain in the ass, that's what really matters. I can't say I've ever known a guy who gave a crap about stuff like education.

Of course, whether a guy is willing to get into a long-term relationship also depends on timing, but that's a different issue. The potential-relationship woman has to be hot and fun, and then the timing has to be right.

For women, I'm not so sure. On the one hand you have women who are concerned with a man's resume, including education -- maybe because of perceived shared values, intelligence, earning potential, and I'm not sure what else. On the other hand, you have women who are maybe more guy-like in terms of relationships, who want someone who is hot and not a pain in the ass. Obviously, I'm the latter, so I can't explain the former with any accuracy.

Random thoughts based on previous posts:


In my opinion, people who do well in college tend to be successful in the work world as well -- not because they're necessarily more intelligent than non-college graduates, but because the skills needed to do well in college are similar to those needed to do well at a job. If you learn how to work well with deadlines, work well under pressure, work well with authority figures directing you, accomplish tasks you don't necessarily want to do without whining, work to achieve based on internal drive, not external awards -- you're probably going to be relatively successful at work as well. This is similar to my thoughts that while IQ scores or standardized tests don't necessarily correlate with pure intelligence, they correlate with the kind of intelligence that is valued in our society and thus predict success fairly well.

Bottom line: Success in school reflects learned behaviors that can or can't be changed, and that can be learned in or outside of school. Success at standardized testing is mostly genetic/learned early in life, and thus fairly stabilized by the time you hit high school/college. People who have high IQs but don't do well in situations that require deadlines or working well with authority figures, etc., will still be relatively succesful at less conventional jobs. Those who aren't particularly naturally intelligent but have learned how to play the game can do decently at conventional jobs but will probably never be CEO. I don't think Bill Gates could have ever started at the bottom and worked his way to the top because he probably never learned those "playing well with others" skills, but he managed to use his intelligence to become successful. The same goes for everyone from Kanye West to Ron Popeil. (RON POPEIL WAS A COLLEGE DROPOUT, YALL. I KNEW YOU WANTED TO KNOW.)


I don't think women are necessarily more shallow for focusing on "resumes," especially since where men fail to look for resumes they make up for in looking for attractiveness. It's just indicative of what is conditioned into either gender -- women are often conditioned to look for men who will be able to support them, and a degree/financial security is indicative of that. Men aren't looking for people to support them, so they wouldn't really care whether or not a women has an impressive resume. I do agree with the bottom line of James's post, though.

In terms of what valkyrie is saying, women who tend to discard traditional OMGMUSTFINDAHUSBANDTOSUPPORT ME thinking will be more likely to focus on who a man is rather than his money and credentials.


And I'm off to continue the search for the elusive guy who is hot & not a pain in the ass, because I still haven't found him.