^^^^Dennis Hastert, Mark Foley....

I know people like this. There were tons of Republican gay dudes at W&L and even some who were "fratty." Some of them only came out of the closet after graduation. Not that me knowing people like this proves anything to you.

You probably know people like this too, but just don't realize they're gay.

Certainly it happens -- more often than anyone would like to admit, probably (as to some of your examples) -- but I think you're over-reaching stating it the way you did and for the argument you did.

Regarding hypocrisy: Of course Shiner is a hypocrite. I am a hypocrite, as well. All Christians are hypocrites. It's the nature of Christianity. We acknowledge our faults, and acknowledge that there are rights and wrongs (while we may all disagree on what those are). Therefore, we do things CONSTANTLY that we know are wrong, and we will still tell you that those things are wrong, and that other things are wrong as well. If we don't, then we can't try to do better.

i love it when you talk strong to me

You're right. I mean, I have no reason to believe you're not being truthful, but anecdotal evidence doesn't mean overly much. I know/have known a lot of gay folks, and none of them really fit that bill. My experience has just been different. But regardless, I still think that the people we're describing are a very small percentage. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

About the last part, who knows. I think it is sometimes a cop out when people say this, as I don't think lines are drawn that clearly. Maybe somebody I would never have thought will turn up gay, but I think it is just as likely that this won't happen. But many will respond that "oh, well they are gay, they just never come out." Perhaps so, but these are certainly convenient ways to never admit being wrong in such arguments.

But even if people were gay in my fraternity, for example, that doesn't really aid the argument that they should be included in membership. So they're like us in a lot of ways, except for a rather major one (sexual orientation). Obviously they don't feel comfortable coming out in that environment, but this has been discussed extensively above.

DST, I certainly engage in hypocritical behavior, but perhaps we're not quite as bad as you make out.

When I think of hypocrite, I think of someone condemning others, alleging they live a nearly-faultless life, while ignoring their own mass of sin. Perhaps my definition is too narrow, but I think there are a lot of us that openly acknowledge our faults, and publicly note that while we think A, B and C are wrong, we know they're not any worse than D, E and F that we engage in. Being a fallible person certainly doesn't mean you can't acknowledge other moral inadequacies.

But it doesn't matter, I'm not really worried about being labeled a hypocrite. As long as people know that when I assert that certain acts are immoral, it doesn't mean I'm proclaiming to be morally superior. I certainly fail on a regular basis to live the type of life I should, so I'm not overly worried about the semantics.

?

Mark Foley = gay Republican congressman from Florida who was (barely) closeted. Lived with a partner and was unmarried, just didn't discuss or publicizie his sexual orientation. Was molested as a child and sent inappropriate emails and IMs to male high school pages. Was outed, resigned his seat in Congress, and entered rehab for alcohol abuse.

Dennis Hastert = former Republican speaker of the house. Criticized for his handling of the Foley scandal (supposedly saw the inappropriate emails/IMs and didn't do anything about it until they were leaked to the press). Led to his eventual resignation. There is a lot of speculation regarding whether or not he is gay. I didn't know that myself until alum posted it. I tried to find some unbiased websites that discuss it but couldn't. He is married with adult children but lives in Washington with his unmarried male chief of staff (or at least he did before he resigned). Evidently when his wife comes to visit she stays in a hotel. I have no idea if these are accurate b/c they're mostly from liberal blogs, but here are the links I found:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lawren...r_b_31171.html
http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2006/10/flaggots.html
http://boyculture.typepad.com/boy_cu...stert_gay.html

I think we basically agree :) The idea that you have to be perfect to have a moral problem with anything is ridiculous. And so, if that makes us all hypocrites, that's fine. All Christians, of all flavors, are hypocrites.

Hardly. That's not what hypocrisy means. It's not hypocritical to hold others and (one's self) to high standards even though we know we will all from time to time fail to meet them.

Hypocrisy, by definition, is pretending to have values or moral standards that you do not actually have. It is holding others to a standard, and giving the appearances of holding yourself to that same standard, when in fact you do not hold yourself to that standard.

As long as you are acknowledging your faults and trying to do better, than it's not hypocrisy.

Eh...all HUMANS can be hypocritical.

But merely acknowledging that in this type of a discussion is a cop-out.

After reading the thread, I'd have to agree...hypocrisy is not the correct term. Hubris is more apt (one of the seven deadly sins, I might add!) If straight guys don't want to be friends with gay guys, I'm sure the gay guys aren't missing out on anything with that group other than condemnation and contempt. To the frat guys who go on and on about the "disgusting" behavior of gay men, don't think that God sees your sins in any better light. Drinking to excess, fornicating with women (some of whom did not agree to said activity), etc are all disgusting in his eyes. Don't fool yourself that you are any better than any gay man walking the earth.

Everybody that answered the guy gave honest and mature responses. Has anyone been cocky or arrogant about it either?, that's ridiculous. I've read this entire thread for the most part and haven't really seen that at all.

What "frat guys" on here have said anything about the "disgusting behavior of gay men"? Perhaps I missed that part too. Furthermore, trying to use the whole "you drink and have sex so you aren't any better" b.s. cop-out has already been run into the ground.

Also, has anybody said anything about being "better" than anyone either? I don't think so, maybe someone has.

macallan25, this has to be one of the greatest posts I have seen on this thread!

You prove yourself very well!:cool:

Thank You!